Webb on Roczen and the mental side of the sport

Monte122
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5/4/2021 3:01am
500 Mike wrote:
The Webb fanboys are out in full force today!!
so are the haters like yourself....."Not a champion caliber person" wtf lol!
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CPR
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5/4/2021 3:50am
CPR wrote:
Anyone know who #118 is?
krypto71 wrote:
Millsaps!
Oh of course! Cheers
Viewsonic
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5/4/2021 4:35am
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a win seems possible they will go for it, but unnecessary risks will not be taken anymore by them. They have their employers/sponsors in kind of a bind. Honda/Kawasaki want to hire winners I am certain, but Tomac/Roczen seem to only willing to go to a certain level of risk to get a win, and those two are still in the elite group of maybe five who can win at all, so they are guaranteed salaried rides as long as they can still win and prove it once in a while. Cooper seems the only rider now who is willing to go to the next level of intensity/commitment to win. As far as Reed/Ricky/Stewart they all got to the same point in their careers as Tomac and Roczen are now.
davistld01
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5/4/2021 4:46am Edited Date/Time 5/4/2021 4:47am
Viewsonic wrote:
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a...
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a win seems possible they will go for it, but unnecessary risks will not be taken anymore by them. They have their employers/sponsors in kind of a bind. Honda/Kawasaki want to hire winners I am certain, but Tomac/Roczen seem to only willing to go to a certain level of risk to get a win, and those two are still in the elite group of maybe five who can win at all, so they are guaranteed salaried rides as long as they can still win and prove it once in a while. Cooper seems the only rider now who is willing to go to the next level of intensity/commitment to win. As far as Reed/Ricky/Stewart they all got to the same point in their careers as Tomac and Roczen are now.
And Webb will too, at some point. Hopefully, he won’t have to experience the physical trauma that Roczen & Tomac have had to endure before that happens.
1

The Shop

5/4/2021 4:54am
Viewsonic wrote:
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a...
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a win seems possible they will go for it, but unnecessary risks will not be taken anymore by them. They have their employers/sponsors in kind of a bind. Honda/Kawasaki want to hire winners I am certain, but Tomac/Roczen seem to only willing to go to a certain level of risk to get a win, and those two are still in the elite group of maybe five who can win at all, so they are guaranteed salaried rides as long as they can still win and prove it once in a while. Cooper seems the only rider now who is willing to go to the next level of intensity/commitment to win. As far as Reed/Ricky/Stewart they all got to the same point in their careers as Tomac and Roczen are now.
davistld01 wrote:
And Webb will too, at some point. Hopefully, he won’t have to experience the physical trauma that Roczen & Tomac have had to endure before that...
And Webb will too, at some point. Hopefully, he won’t have to experience the physical trauma that Roczen & Tomac have had to endure before that happens.
The back smacker to pavement seems pretty traumatizing.
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Fonzarelli
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5/4/2021 5:17am Edited Date/Time 5/4/2021 5:18am
I don't think it's mental with Roczen, I think it's physical. Whether it's his arms or some mystery condition we don't know about he just doesn't have the gas in the tank to finish a race strong. He can start as good as ever and dice through the pack for a few laps almost as good as ever but then it's downhill from there, race after race. It didn't just start this year, I have heard him use his health as a excuse for a races in the past, including all last MX season.

Also, Roczen has never been a bar banger, to expect him to start now isn't very realistic.
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visser62
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5/4/2021 5:24am
mxb2 wrote:
I guess herlings got nervous as webb, forkner beat him in charlotte.
Funny how everyone brings up that Charlotte race, on one of the weirdest, shittiest, flattest tracks ever, and nobody brings up how a week later Herlings absolutely destroyed JMart and Forkner on Glen Helen, where they ride all the time.
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Crush
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5/4/2021 5:47am
Fonzarelli wrote:
I don't think it's mental with Roczen, I think it's physical. Whether it's his arms or some mystery condition we don't know about he just doesn't...
I don't think it's mental with Roczen, I think it's physical. Whether it's his arms or some mystery condition we don't know about he just doesn't have the gas in the tank to finish a race strong. He can start as good as ever and dice through the pack for a few laps almost as good as ever but then it's downhill from there, race after race. It didn't just start this year, I have heard him use his health as a excuse for a races in the past, including all last MX season.

Also, Roczen has never been a bar banger, to expect him to start now isn't very realistic.
He's always faded as a season wears on though... and he has a similar approach in the races, lightning out the gate and as it wears on Coop etc have ground him down.

Go back to battling Eli in 250 outdoors. Eli was charging like a maniac at the end and Kenny was wilting.

450 outdoors – Massive lead and beat Dungey but Ryan closed stronger. Even in 16 at his best he wasn't as good at the end as he started.

And every 450 SX season, pre-or-post arms, it's been similar.

Sounds more mental to me.
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mccorkelmoto
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5/4/2021 5:47am
I keep saying Coop is the only current racer that would have been able to compete in the RC/Stew/Reed days mentally. All the other top guys...
I keep saying Coop is the only current racer that would have been able to compete in the RC/Stew/Reed days mentally. All the other top guys are mental midgets.

Think about Ken, Eli and Coop being on this gate. Which one says “let’s bang some bars” and which ones say “If 7 and 4 have a bad race maybe I can do okay but I’m just happy to be here”


GuyB pic right? So epic
CPR wrote:
Anyone know who #118 is?
I believe 118 is Davi Millsaps
davistld01
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5/4/2021 6:09am
Viewsonic wrote:
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a...
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a win seems possible they will go for it, but unnecessary risks will not be taken anymore by them. They have their employers/sponsors in kind of a bind. Honda/Kawasaki want to hire winners I am certain, but Tomac/Roczen seem to only willing to go to a certain level of risk to get a win, and those two are still in the elite group of maybe five who can win at all, so they are guaranteed salaried rides as long as they can still win and prove it once in a while. Cooper seems the only rider now who is willing to go to the next level of intensity/commitment to win. As far as Reed/Ricky/Stewart they all got to the same point in their careers as Tomac and Roczen are now.
davistld01 wrote:
And Webb will too, at some point. Hopefully, he won’t have to experience the physical trauma that Roczen & Tomac have had to endure before that...
And Webb will too, at some point. Hopefully, he won’t have to experience the physical trauma that Roczen & Tomac have had to endure before that happens.
The back smacker to pavement seems pretty traumatizing.
Not minimizing a hit like that...but compared to the destroyed shoulders of Tomac, and even more the potentially career-ending, gnarly arm injury that had Roczen having multiple surgeries to correct...the "smacker" was just another day at the office.
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mxb2
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5/4/2021 6:31am Edited Date/Time 5/4/2021 6:33am
mxb2 wrote:
I guess herlings got nervous as webb, forkner beat him in charlotte.
visser62 wrote:
Funny how everyone brings up that Charlotte race, on one of the weirdest, shittiest, flattest tracks ever, and nobody brings up how a week later Herlings...
Funny how everyone brings up that Charlotte race, on one of the weirdest, shittiest, flattest tracks ever, and nobody brings up how a week later Herlings absolutely destroyed JMart and Forkner on Glen Helen, where they ride all the time.
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt even win a overall mxgp that year.
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Bonanza69
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5/4/2021 8:06am
mxb2 wrote:
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt...
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt even win a overall mxgp that year.
I think,it was the last time we saw Kroc racing at the mxdn.
OtotheB178
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5/4/2021 8:16am
mxb2 wrote:
I guess herlings got nervous as webb, forkner beat him in charlotte.
visser62 wrote:
Funny how everyone brings up that Charlotte race, on one of the weirdest, shittiest, flattest tracks ever, and nobody brings up how a week later Herlings...
Funny how everyone brings up that Charlotte race, on one of the weirdest, shittiest, flattest tracks ever, and nobody brings up how a week later Herlings absolutely destroyed JMart and Forkner on Glen Helen, where they ride all the time.
mxb2 wrote:
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt...
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt even win a overall mxgp that year.
Maybe it's bike set up?
Euros are known to carry better corner speed and euro products such as pipes tend to produce a stronger curve through out the RPM range although have lower Max HP increase in comparison to US products, Mainly due to the "euro style" of riding. There's no shame in acknowledging that KROC is an out and out AMA racer and as such his set up and riding style has changed to a more "US" style. Just rewatch Redbud and watch specifically Tomac compared to Coldenhoff, Tomac buries the bike, turns abruptly and gases hard. Coldenhoff comes in abit slower, carries speed lower in berms and rolls the throttle on a touch earlier.
This Euro vs US comparison is silly now.
Euro is better outdoors US is better Indoors. Not to say there isn't riders from either side who can make it on the other side of the pond it's just how it is now and there's no shame in it.
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mxb2
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5/4/2021 8:23am
visser62 wrote:
Funny how everyone brings up that Charlotte race, on one of the weirdest, shittiest, flattest tracks ever, and nobody brings up how a week later Herlings...
Funny how everyone brings up that Charlotte race, on one of the weirdest, shittiest, flattest tracks ever, and nobody brings up how a week later Herlings absolutely destroyed JMart and Forkner on Glen Helen, where they ride all the time.
mxb2 wrote:
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt...
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt even win a overall mxgp that year.
OtotheB178 wrote:
Maybe it's bike set up? Euros are known to carry better corner speed and euro products such as pipes tend to produce a stronger curve through...
Maybe it's bike set up?
Euros are known to carry better corner speed and euro products such as pipes tend to produce a stronger curve through out the RPM range although have lower Max HP increase in comparison to US products, Mainly due to the "euro style" of riding. There's no shame in acknowledging that KROC is an out and out AMA racer and as such his set up and riding style has changed to a more "US" style. Just rewatch Redbud and watch specifically Tomac compared to Coldenhoff, Tomac buries the bike, turns abruptly and gases hard. Coldenhoff comes in abit slower, carries speed lower in berms and rolls the throttle on a touch earlier.
This Euro vs US comparison is silly now.
Euro is better outdoors US is better Indoors. Not to say there isn't riders from either side who can make it on the other side of the pond it's just how it is now and there's no shame in it.
Agreed, so many things could go wrong or right, the series,riders comparison is invalid until they race a full series. Some have selective memory though.
OtotheB178
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5/4/2021 8:29am
mxb2 wrote:
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt...
Kinda like the shitty mud race at red bud. Ironic Do you really think coldenhoff is better than kroc, who got 18th that day? Glenn didnt even win a overall mxgp that year.
OtotheB178 wrote:
Maybe it's bike set up? Euros are known to carry better corner speed and euro products such as pipes tend to produce a stronger curve through...
Maybe it's bike set up?
Euros are known to carry better corner speed and euro products such as pipes tend to produce a stronger curve through out the RPM range although have lower Max HP increase in comparison to US products, Mainly due to the "euro style" of riding. There's no shame in acknowledging that KROC is an out and out AMA racer and as such his set up and riding style has changed to a more "US" style. Just rewatch Redbud and watch specifically Tomac compared to Coldenhoff, Tomac buries the bike, turns abruptly and gases hard. Coldenhoff comes in abit slower, carries speed lower in berms and rolls the throttle on a touch earlier.
This Euro vs US comparison is silly now.
Euro is better outdoors US is better Indoors. Not to say there isn't riders from either side who can make it on the other side of the pond it's just how it is now and there's no shame in it.
mxb2 wrote:
Agreed, so many things could go wrong or right, the series,riders comparison is invalid until they race a full series. Some have selective memory though.
Yeah i agree but even then anything can happen throughout the season that it's not a true reflection of a countries rider pool. People just need to enjoy the fact we have the ability to watch both series' and the SX on demand. Enjoy them for their differences and stop comparing. Although i enjoy the lighthearted bench racing and patriotism from MXoN.

I do wish more US riders would come to MXGP's as i think it would encourage alot of diehard AMA fans to watch it. The hype leading up to RV doing it was huge. Such a shame he bowed out the way he did.
Question
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5/4/2021 8:34am
I keep saying Coop is the only current racer that would have been able to compete in the RC/Stew/Reed days mentally. All the other top guys...
I keep saying Coop is the only current racer that would have been able to compete in the RC/Stew/Reed days mentally. All the other top guys are mental midgets.

Think about Ken, Eli and Coop being on this gate. Which one says “let’s bang some bars” and which ones say “If 7 and 4 have a bad race maybe I can do okay but I’m just happy to be here”


GuyB pic right? So epic
Park Boys wrote:
You show an outdoor pic and bring up Coop. He would be 60 seconds a race behind a RC/Stew battle, at least. Unless something drastic happens...
You show an outdoor pic and bring up Coop. He would be 60 seconds a race behind a RC/Stew battle, at least. Unless something drastic happens this year. Show an SX pic next time. He’s a bad dude indoors. But outdoors he ain’t even in the same sentence as these guys.
Zycki11 wrote:
Honestly he wouldn’t even be in the same ballpark as reedy on his Honda. Those three were so damn good and mentally tough. Ironically one worked...
Honestly he wouldn’t even be in the same ballpark as reedy on his Honda. Those three were so damn good and mentally tough. Ironically one worked the hardest(RC), one had the most natural ability(JS), and one was the toughest sob to ride a bike(CR).

Today’s racers aren’t built from the same cloth.

Mentally it would have been hard for him in SX too. Those 3 have about 140 main events wins together (and at some point there was also MC in there with his 72). Those 3 crushed a lot of top riders (Tortelli, Windham, DV, Lusk, etc).

That said, I really think Webb will now turn this year into a couple more SX championships. He has beat down the big guns (Tomac, Roczen, Musquin, Anderson, Osborne), and he is for now more consistent and/or faster than the new crop (Sexton, Ferrandis, AC, Pless').
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5/4/2021 9:23am
In my opinion is mental.

I think is weak how the SX season finished, he got 2 place and he has not acknowledge his team for busting their asses hoping for a SX championship that was well within reach... ( I know he of course did it on person but on this day social media is everything and for him more... He shared all of his surgerys and stuff)

On the last motospy you could see the frustration of his mechanic after webb passed him.

He is an awesome rider, but lacks in the racer department to cooper.

Stop saying it's physical, he can ride a main event just fine. Unless of course in the coming days he releases a PR about how he has been dealing with yada yada yada again.

And again I think Roczen is great! this was his best year on SX
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IWreckALot
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5/4/2021 11:42am
Fonzarelli wrote:
I don't think it's mental with Roczen, I think it's physical. Whether it's his arms or some mystery condition we don't know about he just doesn't...
I don't think it's mental with Roczen, I think it's physical. Whether it's his arms or some mystery condition we don't know about he just doesn't have the gas in the tank to finish a race strong. He can start as good as ever and dice through the pack for a few laps almost as good as ever but then it's downhill from there, race after race. It didn't just start this year, I have heard him use his health as a excuse for a races in the past, including all last MX season.

Also, Roczen has never been a bar banger, to expect him to start now isn't very realistic.
None of the guys racing for the championship seem to want to race overly aggressive unnecessarily. Tomac more often than not treats the riders the same way they treat him. He isn't going to go in and punt Roczen or Webb. He may ride them wide, but he leaves them room respectfully.

Tomac doesn't mind making an enemy out of Barcia because Barcia is going to Barcia regardless of how much respect Tomac gives him when passing him.

Guys like Barcia and Anderson just have to ride that way because they don't particularly have the speed to pass certain riders clean. Nothing wrong with most of their passes, it's legal racing, but if you're going for the front wheel habitually, you're going to be on the receiving end periodically.

Webb and Roczen in SLC is a good example. Roczen rode a little more aggressive with Webb, so Webb returned the favor.
5/4/2021 12:36pm
I see Webb has put the boot in a bit on Kenny saying he had him mentally & has in his pocket kind of ?

I dont blame him for his moment of victory & he did get to him, but I kind of like a gracious winner not a big head, I know the USA way is to win at all costs but hope Kenny can win again considering the terrible injuries has had.
Any one else think Webb's gloating bit, can some times bite you on the arse.
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ATKpilot99
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5/4/2021 12:42pm
Hamster 75 wrote:
I see Webb has put the boot in a bit on Kenny saying he had him mentally & has in his pocket kind of ? I...
I see Webb has put the boot in a bit on Kenny saying he had him mentally & has in his pocket kind of ?

I dont blame him for his moment of victory & he did get to him, but I kind of like a gracious winner not a big head, I know the USA way is to win at all costs but hope Kenny can win again considering the terrible injuries has had.
Any one else think Webb's gloating bit, can some times bite you on the arse.
He may get humbled outdoors.
5/4/2021 1:43pm
Hamster 75 wrote:
I see Webb has put the boot in a bit on Kenny saying he had him mentally & has in his pocket kind of ? I...
I see Webb has put the boot in a bit on Kenny saying he had him mentally & has in his pocket kind of ?

I dont blame him for his moment of victory & he did get to him, but I kind of like a gracious winner not a big head, I know the USA way is to win at all costs but hope Kenny can win again considering the terrible injuries has had.
Any one else think Webb's gloating bit, can some times bite you on the arse.
At least he is victorius... What about the "suit" the "alpha dog" the "sand man" for me that was more of a big head than what you say about Cooper.

Maybe this was the bite in the arse for roczen of being cocky or whatever and maybe some day it will be the other way around..
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Red141
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5/4/2021 3:50pm
Hamster 75 wrote:
I see Webb has put the boot in a bit on Kenny saying he had him mentally & has in his pocket kind of ? I...
I see Webb has put the boot in a bit on Kenny saying he had him mentally & has in his pocket kind of ?

I dont blame him for his moment of victory & he did get to him, but I kind of like a gracious winner not a big head, I know the USA way is to win at all costs but hope Kenny can win again considering the terrible injuries has had.
Any one else think Webb's gloating bit, can some times bite you on the arse.
Webb was answering a question. I like his honesty versus coming up with a canned response.
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Hank_Thrill
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5/4/2021 4:13pm Edited Date/Time 5/4/2021 4:21pm
I don't believe either of these guys are "mentally tougher" than the other.

The difference I see between Ken and Cooper is that Cooper has a phenomenal ability to get "in the zone" when it counts. So many races this year he was predicted to do poorly based on qualifying, or his heat race. Yet, when the main came around his switch flicked on and the rest was history. RV had this ability too - to not be affected by anything else when it came Main Event time.

Ken on the other hand tends to pop out of his zone fairly frequently. This could be due to the fact he has had to deal with more trauma from his '17 crash, his '18 crash with Webb (I made a post about that one) his trainer / brother-n-law becoming a paralyzed due to his supercross crash while they were riding together. Or, it could be something physical, or a combination of both as psychological trauma becomes stored in the body.

Part of trauma -whether it is major, or something minor- is that parts of the brain go on high alert towards other similar potential threats. Getting those regions of the brain to deactivate back to their natural state has nothing to do with mental toughness. Whatever is going on with Ken, you can definitely see he easily comes out of his zone or struggles to get in the zone on certain days. This coming out of the zone is also not a matter of mental strength if psychological trauma is a cause. There are neurochemical processes happening when a person is repeatedly defeated. Neurochemical processes also occur due to trauma responses (fight, flight, or freeze).

As I said, both of these guys are mentally tough or they would not be where they are today. There just might be more stuff going on in Ken's head that is more out of his control. Hopefully he and his psychologist can get things straightened out for next season. My guess based on what I have heard Ken say is that they are taking more of a mindfulness approach to the season which is going to do very little if psychological trauma is involved. I hope I'm wrong because I want to see him win a SX 450 title before he retires.

Sincerely,
professional shrink
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4
5/5/2021 8:10am
I don't believe either of these guys are "mentally tougher" than the other. The difference I see between Ken and Cooper is that Cooper has a...
I don't believe either of these guys are "mentally tougher" than the other.

The difference I see between Ken and Cooper is that Cooper has a phenomenal ability to get "in the zone" when it counts. So many races this year he was predicted to do poorly based on qualifying, or his heat race. Yet, when the main came around his switch flicked on and the rest was history. RV had this ability too - to not be affected by anything else when it came Main Event time.

Ken on the other hand tends to pop out of his zone fairly frequently. This could be due to the fact he has had to deal with more trauma from his '17 crash, his '18 crash with Webb (I made a post about that one) his trainer / brother-n-law becoming a paralyzed due to his supercross crash while they were riding together. Or, it could be something physical, or a combination of both as psychological trauma becomes stored in the body.

Part of trauma -whether it is major, or something minor- is that parts of the brain go on high alert towards other similar potential threats. Getting those regions of the brain to deactivate back to their natural state has nothing to do with mental toughness. Whatever is going on with Ken, you can definitely see he easily comes out of his zone or struggles to get in the zone on certain days. This coming out of the zone is also not a matter of mental strength if psychological trauma is a cause. There are neurochemical processes happening when a person is repeatedly defeated. Neurochemical processes also occur due to trauma responses (fight, flight, or freeze).

As I said, both of these guys are mentally tough or they would not be where they are today. There just might be more stuff going on in Ken's head that is more out of his control. Hopefully he and his psychologist can get things straightened out for next season. My guess based on what I have heard Ken say is that they are taking more of a mindfulness approach to the season which is going to do very little if psychological trauma is involved. I hope I'm wrong because I want to see him win a SX 450 title before he retires.

Sincerely,
professional shrink
Cooper's crash last year was scary AF.

When he lost at the MXDN you could see his frustration and how pissed he was for losing in that way.

He growing up at the Cianciarulo shadow.

I mean every mx racer has had injuries, fears and so on... So I am not shrink but yeah Cooper is mentally tougher than Roczen is easy to see.

Let's give Cooper credit, he is tough as nails, and would be cool to stop the "yeah but kenny had a horrible injury, but yeah kenny must have traumas, kenny this kenny that")

I mean Christophe pourcel injury was way worse than Kenny and he came back to win 2 SX championships and so freaking close of 2 MX... and never was justified the way Kenny is all the time.

9
Hank_Thrill
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5/5/2021 9:24am Edited Date/Time 5/5/2021 9:28am
Pakoyz250f wrote:
Cooper's crash last year was scary AF. When he lost at the MXDN you could see his frustration and how pissed he was for losing in...
Cooper's crash last year was scary AF.

When he lost at the MXDN you could see his frustration and how pissed he was for losing in that way.

He growing up at the Cianciarulo shadow.

I mean every mx racer has had injuries, fears and so on... So I am not shrink but yeah Cooper is mentally tougher than Roczen is easy to see.

Let's give Cooper credit, he is tough as nails, and would be cool to stop the "yeah but kenny had a horrible injury, but yeah kenny must have traumas, kenny this kenny that")

I mean Christophe pourcel injury was way worse than Kenny and he came back to win 2 SX championships and so freaking close of 2 MX... and never was justified the way Kenny is all the time.

It was scary AF! I saw it in person and thought he might not walk again.

I definitely was not trying to take anything away from Cooper's accomplishments, or imply "excuses" for Roczen. Watching Cooper execute this season has made me a big fan of him, too. He is extremely tough, has a killer race instinct to make things happen. He is a 2x supercross champion for a reason.

I see your point in bringing up Cooper's crash and Christophe Pourcel's injury. This may sound counterintuitive, but the size or seriousness of a "life event" doesn't determine what type of trauma response - if one is even present - will occur. Some people can serve multiple tours of combat and be totally fine, whereas another person might not even make it through a single tour and end up in my office. Trauma has more to do with how the memory is stored, or encoded into the brain, than what actually happens.

There are also a lot of variables involved on whether a trauma will be imprinted, or impact the brain. For example - and not to take anything away from Webb - but the fact he was able to start rehabbing immediately to finish out the remainder of the series has a positive impact on reducing the risk of the event having a lasting impact. As a mental experiment, imagine having a high speed car wreck where you are immediately able get out of the car and run to the side of the highway until the medics arrive, versus being in the same car wreck but being trapped in the vehicle. In one case you feel completely powerless, your safety is at risk, you lack the control and ability to help yourself. Repeating similar events is another factor.

The only lasting impact I remember Pourcel having was difficulty with heat after his crash. I think if he lost those two outdoor championships due to mentally collapsing in the middle of motos a topic like this may have come up with him. From what I can remember he lost them due to a wonky crash and late season DNF.




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4
KurtJ99
Posts
2411
Joined
2/6/2017
Location
CA US
5/5/2021 10:05am
Viewsonic wrote:
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a...
It doesn't seem to be a willingness to bang bars, but more a measuring of risk/reward anymore for Tomac/Roczen and others in the sport. When a win seems possible they will go for it, but unnecessary risks will not be taken anymore by them. They have their employers/sponsors in kind of a bind. Honda/Kawasaki want to hire winners I am certain, but Tomac/Roczen seem to only willing to go to a certain level of risk to get a win, and those two are still in the elite group of maybe five who can win at all, so they are guaranteed salaried rides as long as they can still win and prove it once in a while. Cooper seems the only rider now who is willing to go to the next level of intensity/commitment to win. As far as Reed/Ricky/Stewart they all got to the same point in their careers as Tomac and Roczen are now.
I would disagree that Cooper " seems the only rider now who is willing to go to the next level of intensity/commitment to win. ".
- We've called it "beast mode" when Tomac blasts through the pack.
- Kenny has had an ability to cut through the pack/get a great start on a regular basis (until recently).

Cooper doesn't seem to have many bad days, and has more good days than most. He definitely seems to be comfortable with his bike setup and you hardly see him out of control.
- At SL1 I was impressed how hard Marv tried and looked dicey, yet Coop just looked totally on the prowl, in control.
- Yes, Cooper has had practice crashes but has been solid in mains

Given how Roczen crashed out of the lead at SLII you could argue he was taking more risk and crashed.

I think Cooper is just faster more often. Deep, I know Smile
2
5/6/2021 9:29am
It was scary AF! I saw it in person and thought he might not walk again. I definitely was not trying to take anything away from...
It was scary AF! I saw it in person and thought he might not walk again.

I definitely was not trying to take anything away from Cooper's accomplishments, or imply "excuses" for Roczen. Watching Cooper execute this season has made me a big fan of him, too. He is extremely tough, has a killer race instinct to make things happen. He is a 2x supercross champion for a reason.

I see your point in bringing up Cooper's crash and Christophe Pourcel's injury. This may sound counterintuitive, but the size or seriousness of a "life event" doesn't determine what type of trauma response - if one is even present - will occur. Some people can serve multiple tours of combat and be totally fine, whereas another person might not even make it through a single tour and end up in my office. Trauma has more to do with how the memory is stored, or encoded into the brain, than what actually happens.

There are also a lot of variables involved on whether a trauma will be imprinted, or impact the brain. For example - and not to take anything away from Webb - but the fact he was able to start rehabbing immediately to finish out the remainder of the series has a positive impact on reducing the risk of the event having a lasting impact. As a mental experiment, imagine having a high speed car wreck where you are immediately able get out of the car and run to the side of the highway until the medics arrive, versus being in the same car wreck but being trapped in the vehicle. In one case you feel completely powerless, your safety is at risk, you lack the control and ability to help yourself. Repeating similar events is another factor.

The only lasting impact I remember Pourcel having was difficulty with heat after his crash. I think if he lost those two outdoor championships due to mentally collapsing in the middle of motos a topic like this may have come up with him. From what I can remember he lost them due to a wonky crash and late season DNF.





Ok that was deep hehe.

So English is noy my first language.

But you still not accepting that Webb is mentally stronger?

And c'mon Pourcel couldn't walk for months!!! I think that difficulty with heat was not the only thing that he struggled with..

Imagine if Pourcel would have share all the things he went trough like Roczen did...

Anyways is good to read a professional view on this... Im fan of all this dudes they are gnarly.. each one of them (all of them have issues, fears, past injuries and so on)

Cheers
2
G-man
Posts
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Location
Mesa, AZ US
5/6/2021 9:50am Edited Date/Time 5/6/2021 10:37am
Pakoyz250f wrote:
Cooper's crash last year was scary AF. When he lost at the MXDN you could see his frustration and how pissed he was for losing in...
Cooper's crash last year was scary AF.

When he lost at the MXDN you could see his frustration and how pissed he was for losing in that way.

He growing up at the Cianciarulo shadow.

I mean every mx racer has had injuries, fears and so on... So I am not shrink but yeah Cooper is mentally tougher than Roczen is easy to see.

Let's give Cooper credit, he is tough as nails, and would be cool to stop the "yeah but kenny had a horrible injury, but yeah kenny must have traumas, kenny this kenny that")

I mean Christophe pourcel injury was way worse than Kenny and he came back to win 2 SX championships and so freaking close of 2 MX... and never was justified the way Kenny is all the time.

Yep agree with everything you said especially this:
"He growing up at the Cianciarulo shadow."

And I like AC, as he seems like a really cool dude, but the fact remains that he had MOST of the publicity before they turned Pro.

I did a Poll on here awhile back when Coop was on the Racer X cover as Rider of the Year and I got blasted for it. Laughing

I wonder how many change their mind after a complete dominant display by Coop in the last race?

Yes Adam has a better personality and is a NATURAL in front of the camera, but the fact remains Webb is one of best Racers we have seen in recent years and would be more liked if he didn't tuck his ears in his hat. Wink

Anyone remember when Reed did the same thing early in his career and had the diamond earring?

Who knows maybe Coop will change his hat technique and suddenly gain thousands of new fans. Smile
4
Hank_Thrill
Posts
4648
Joined
9/22/2008
Location
Arlen, TX US
5/6/2021 10:40am Edited Date/Time 5/6/2021 10:55am
Pakoyz250f wrote:
Ok that was deep hehe. So English is noy my first language. But you still not accepting that Webb is mentally stronger? And c'mon Pourcel couldn't...

Ok that was deep hehe.

So English is noy my first language.

But you still not accepting that Webb is mentally stronger?

And c'mon Pourcel couldn't walk for months!!! I think that difficulty with heat was not the only thing that he struggled with..

Imagine if Pourcel would have share all the things he went trough like Roczen did...

Anyways is good to read a professional view on this... Im fan of all this dudes they are gnarly.. each one of them (all of them have issues, fears, past injuries and so on)

Cheers
Cheers,

First off Pourcel is one of my favorite riders and I am sure he went through hell to get back to where he did. I think it is incredible all he accomplished after his injury.

Overall, I think Webb is better at limiting outside distractions, staying focused, performing under pressure, has more confidence, etc. His racing instincts for passing are top notch too. If that is what people mean by mental toughness, well then yes, I think Webb is more mentally fit. Hell, just to survive Aldon Baker's training program takes a lot of mental strength to stay committed.

I do think this championship did come down to who was mentally fitter and Webb showed us why he is the two time supercross champion.

With Ken, given his past and what I do for a living I can totally see why he may be struggling in that area. Of course, there is a lot of speculation, but the fact he hired a sport psychologist says a lot in and of itself. If part of his challenges are due to a trauma response, then assuming he needs to just "be tougher" is not a good way to compare his mental fitness against Webb. Webb, Ken, and Pourcel all have my complete respect with what they have been through and accomplished.
1
wreckitrandy
Posts
4204
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Granite Falls, NC US
5/6/2021 11:14am
Pakoyz250f wrote:
Cooper's crash last year was scary AF. When he lost at the MXDN you could see his frustration and how pissed he was for losing in...
Cooper's crash last year was scary AF.

When he lost at the MXDN you could see his frustration and how pissed he was for losing in that way.

He growing up at the Cianciarulo shadow.

I mean every mx racer has had injuries, fears and so on... So I am not shrink but yeah Cooper is mentally tougher than Roczen is easy to see.

Let's give Cooper credit, he is tough as nails, and would be cool to stop the "yeah but kenny had a horrible injury, but yeah kenny must have traumas, kenny this kenny that")

I mean Christophe pourcel injury was way worse than Kenny and he came back to win 2 SX championships and so freaking close of 2 MX... and never was justified the way Kenny is all the time.

G-man wrote:
Yep agree with everything you said especially this: "He growing up at the Cianciarulo shadow." And I like AC, as he seems like a really cool...
Yep agree with everything you said especially this:
"He growing up at the Cianciarulo shadow."

And I like AC, as he seems like a really cool dude, but the fact remains that he had MOST of the publicity before they turned Pro.

I did a Poll on here awhile back when Coop was on the Racer X cover as Rider of the Year and I got blasted for it. Laughing

I wonder how many change their mind after a complete dominant display by Coop in the last race?

Yes Adam has a better personality and is a NATURAL in front of the camera, but the fact remains Webb is one of best Racers we have seen in recent years and would be more liked if he didn't tuck his ears in his hat. Wink

Anyone remember when Reed did the same thing early in his career and had the diamond earring?

Who knows maybe Coop will change his hat technique and suddenly gain thousands of new fans. Smile
Coop should go retro on his cap. Start wearing a bell hat like DeCoster used to wear. Coolest ever.
3

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