Keefer’s knee guards vs knee brace test

IanMac138
Posts
400
Joined
7/30/2018
Location
West Linn, OR US
4/23/2021 7:49pm Edited Date/Time 4/23/2021 7:52pm
BobPA wrote:
Can you prove that braces break femurs?
IanMac138 wrote:
I compounded (exploded) my femur into 10+ pieces wearing custom CTi's. The main shard of bone came out right at the top of the brace. Not...
I compounded (exploded) my femur into 10+ pieces wearing custom CTi's. The main shard of bone came out right at the top of the brace. Not sure if the brace had anything to do with the femur exploding but kind of interesting that it happened where the brace wasn't secured. My knee was fine, so the brace did it's job there?
BobPA wrote:
Broke my femur at the top of the brace as well. But a set of handlebars is what broke my leg. I have heard this same...
Broke my femur at the top of the brace as well. But a set of handlebars is what broke my leg. I have heard this same argument for years, just have not seen the proof. Just a bunch of anecdotal stories (like ours)
Yeah, I was posing the question about my knee being fine, but my femur getting destroyed as an "I don't know if my brace caused my femur to shatter". I also don't know what would of been worse, destroying my knee (for the second time, which is why I had custom CTi's made) or obliterating my femur.

What I do know is that the road to recovery from my femur injury was way more brutal than my knee injury recovery. A rod and 8 screws + a year of painful rehab made my knee recovery look like a cakewalk. Also to note, I wear Pod kneebraces now and like them. But I also do way more full body workouts and lots of squat/balance/stability/stretching exercises that have made my legs so much stronger and more flexible to the point where I'm thinking that I may want to try some TP199's or Leatte version. They're not that expensive so I think I'll purchase some and see how they feel.
1
4/23/2021 9:15pm
Zycki11 wrote:
Pads for me. Better grip, and the doc said it himself. Soft tissue damage can’t be solved with braces. Not to mention it takes the trauma...
Pads for me. Better grip, and the doc said it himself. Soft tissue damage can’t be solved with braces. Not to mention it takes the trauma and sends it to your femur. Many a snapped femur from braces.
BobPA wrote:
Can you prove that braces break femurs?
CKNY wrote:
No one I have ever heard about has. I’d love to see the proof.
Here's mine. Guess where the knee brace was?

2
3
Johnny Depp
Posts
6435
Joined
10/16/2014
Location
Buda, TX US
4/23/2021 9:38pm
Zycki11 wrote:
Pads for me. Better grip, and the doc said it himself. Soft tissue damage can’t be solved with braces. Not to mention it takes the trauma...
Pads for me. Better grip, and the doc said it himself. Soft tissue damage can’t be solved with braces. Not to mention it takes the trauma and sends it to your femur. Many a snapped femur from braces.
BobPA wrote:
Can you prove that braces break femurs?
CKNY wrote:
No one I have ever heard about has. I’d love to see the proof.
It's in the same medical test that proves they prevent soft tissue damage..
4
3
Motofinne
Posts
11449
Joined
1/4/2014
Location
FI
4/23/2021 11:23pm
This whole debate misses one very important thing. Most modern kneebraces are designed to break at the top and bottom of the brace (or at least flex) when massive force is being applied to it.

So that kinda debunks the whole "kneebraces break femurs"-theory. Unless you're using braces that don't have that design.

3

The Shop

28hall
Posts
308
Joined
4/16/2019
Location
AU
4/23/2021 11:45pm
jemcee wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again haha.. The human body is designed to go 7 km/h (5 m/hr) and not bump into things...
I've said this before and I'll say it again haha..
The human body is designed to go 7 km/h (5 m/hr) and not bump into things.. It can't compete with the forces MX puts it through.. In other words it needs all the help it can get..

Also I dunno if I'm keen to buy knee protection named after the guy with no doubt the most damaged knees in the world haha
I did chuckle reading your last statement however counter point, the man with the most damaged knees DOESNT wear knee braces when he could pay to design anything to suit his needs?
1
cloud41
Posts
284
Joined
8/28/2020
Location
Chicago, IL US
Fantasy
4/24/2021 5:11am
Switched from TLD catalyst x braces to the tp199 guards, huge improvement. Haven’t realized how bad and restrictive the knee braces were until I took them off. Way more confident and comfortable on the bike.
4
philG
Posts
10953
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
4/24/2021 6:09am
BobPA wrote:
Can you prove that braces break femurs?
Can you prove they dont ?
6
4
soggy
Posts
8775
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
UT US
4/24/2021 6:40am
Wow, was hoping this would have some more thoughtful discussion instead of a femur breaking pissing match. One thing is clear that most of us are so stuck in our ways we can’t possibly fathom a change to try something different
8
2
4/24/2021 3:01pm
Something to consider here.

Almost every comment in this thread starts with “I do x/I wear x/I had x injury”. Anecdotal evidence relevant to your unique skeletal structure is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. But that won’t stop me from sharing a story.

A couple weeks ago, I had an absolutely massive get off in 4th gear. I got up to find broken bar mounts, bent subframe, etc on bike- and my bike landed on me after I got tossed over the front. Guess where it landed? My knee. It bent the metal framing on my EVS Axis when the rear tire slammed my left knee while I was still tumbling. I’m sponsored by EVS and have a second set of braces, thankfully. So I suit up for 450 moto 2, and with a brand new pair of boots never worn and a brand new set of knee braces I dabbed my right leg in a 2nd gear corner. My foot twisted and my foot peg hit the back of my boot causing a spiral complete fracture of my fibula and a dislocated ankle.

In my big crash I hopped up fine. In a small dab I fucked my leg entirely. Sometimes protection works, sometimes it literally cannot no matter what. Just do what makes you feel safe, comfortable, and confident.
11
MX558
Posts
1975
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
4/24/2021 6:17pm
I usually wear pod braces because my left knee is trashed . Today I wore a soft hinged brace on my left knee and just knee guard on my good knee . I did feel a little looser on the bike but knees are a little more sore . I might get another soft brace for my right I am 56 so that's probably most of it lol
1
4/24/2021 8:36pm
Knee braces can be very effective you do two things that most riders NEVER do.

#1 - Adjust them so they lock your legs out before full extension.
#2 - Use the anti-rotation strap that locks the brace to your boot. This makes it so your ankle and knee axis of rotation stay parallel. This effectively eliminates TWISTING of the knee. Most ACL tears have some component of external rotation. By locking your boot to the brake, rotation is spread up your leg to your hip joint.

If you adjust your knee brakes like this....you will understand why your knee is much less likely to get torn up.

100% credit to Jason Thomas on both these tips. He mentioned this on the PulpMX Show many years ago, and he was right on the money.
2
BobPA
Posts
8329
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
4/24/2021 8:55pm
BobPA wrote:
Can you prove that braces break femurs?
philG wrote:
Can you prove they dont ?
I cannot, and I am not arguing either way. I have just heard the claims that they break femurs all the time, and have not ever seen proof to back it up.
1
alphado
Posts
4084
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Erie, PA US
4/26/2021 6:30am
I tore my MCL in my left leg 2 years ago on a pit bike. Did not require surgery but it healed "loose" as the doctor put it. Now my knee is pretty unstable. I wear a prescription brace on that leg and an EVS pad on the right leg. I really don't like the brace, but my knee is useless on it's own.
4/26/2021 7:32am
skeef wrote:
Since 4 years old I wore knee guards never ran into any tissue or ligament damage. But playing Lacrosse in college I blew my ACL out...
Since 4 years old I wore knee guards never ran into any tissue or ligament damage. But playing Lacrosse in college I blew my ACL out the first week of training camp. My body hasn't been affected from the large impacts from riding and crashing on moto, but when I start running it says no thanks and implodes.
Are you saying you never got it fixed?
mattman631
Posts
330
Joined
12/16/2015
Location
Mcalester, OK US
4/26/2021 8:48am
Ive had 3 knee surgeries and have an 80% ACL tear in my right knee. Had custom CTis and most recently Mobius. When wearing knee braces I would sometimes dab my right foot and my knee would pop out and lock up. I would then have to stop mid race and fix it before I could continue. Knee braces also caused alot of extra fatigue during long enduros/hare scrambles. I switched to knee pads a few years ago and have not looked back. No more issues with my knee popping out plus I can feel the bike better and my legs no longer go numb. I was scared at first that I would have more issues with my knee but so far so good (knock on wood).

That being said, I now focus on better mobility in my knees and more strength, letting the leg/knee muscles do their job.

To each their own.
3
skeef
Posts
1447
Joined
7/18/2018
Location
AZ US
Fantasy
4/27/2021 9:37am
skeef wrote:
Since 4 years old I wore knee guards never ran into any tissue or ligament damage. But playing Lacrosse in college I blew my ACL out...
Since 4 years old I wore knee guards never ran into any tissue or ligament damage. But playing Lacrosse in college I blew my ACL out the first week of training camp. My body hasn't been affected from the large impacts from riding and crashing on moto, but when I start running it says no thanks and implodes.
Are you saying you never got it fixed?
No I did, I never went back and played. I had to take a year off and was too far gone to be competitive anymore. That was 5 years ago.
Moto520
Posts
3632
Joined
2/4/2013
Location
Schaumburg, IL US
4/27/2021 9:43am
Same deal for me.....broken femur due to the knee brace. The danger with the broken femur is you can cut the artery and actually bleed out from this injury. I recently switched to the TP199 after years of wearing braces. The original Asterisk cell brace was exceptionally rigid at lockout.

Broken femur or mess up knee.....both suck.
Markee
Posts
3658
Joined
4/15/2013
Location
Suffolk, VA US
4/27/2021 11:06am
mattman631 wrote:
Ive had 3 knee surgeries and have an 80% ACL tear in my right knee. Had custom CTis and most recently Mobius. When wearing knee braces...
Ive had 3 knee surgeries and have an 80% ACL tear in my right knee. Had custom CTis and most recently Mobius. When wearing knee braces I would sometimes dab my right foot and my knee would pop out and lock up. I would then have to stop mid race and fix it before I could continue. Knee braces also caused alot of extra fatigue during long enduros/hare scrambles. I switched to knee pads a few years ago and have not looked back. No more issues with my knee popping out plus I can feel the bike better and my legs no longer go numb. I was scared at first that I would have more issues with my knee but so far so good (knock on wood).

That being said, I now focus on better mobility in my knees and more strength, letting the leg/knee muscles do their job.

To each their own.
Your knee locking is one of two things. Torn meniscus or a floating piece of debris.
3
APLMAN99
Posts
12462
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Tualatin, OR US
Fantasy
4/27/2021 11:10am
BobPA wrote:
Can you prove that braces break femurs?
philG wrote:
Can you prove they dont ?
Every person who ate corn 150 years ago is now dead.

Can you prove that eating corn doesn't eventually lead to death????

Cool
3
4
soggy
Posts
8775
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
UT US
4/27/2021 11:15am
mattman631 wrote:
Ive had 3 knee surgeries and have an 80% ACL tear in my right knee. Had custom CTis and most recently Mobius. When wearing knee braces...
Ive had 3 knee surgeries and have an 80% ACL tear in my right knee. Had custom CTis and most recently Mobius. When wearing knee braces I would sometimes dab my right foot and my knee would pop out and lock up. I would then have to stop mid race and fix it before I could continue. Knee braces also caused alot of extra fatigue during long enduros/hare scrambles. I switched to knee pads a few years ago and have not looked back. No more issues with my knee popping out plus I can feel the bike better and my legs no longer go numb. I was scared at first that I would have more issues with my knee but so far so good (knock on wood).

That being said, I now focus on better mobility in my knees and more strength, letting the leg/knee muscles do their job.

To each their own.
Markee wrote:
Your knee locking is one of two things. Torn meniscus or a floating piece of debris.
Or a torn damaged plica band, from the sounds of it this guys knee was slightly dislocating possibly?
Skerby
Posts
1282
Joined
4/9/2013
Location
Mayes County, OK US
4/27/2021 11:16am
Another one that wore knee braces forever, tried guards and never looked back. My knees are in perfect shape and I've never broken a bone in my legs though. I had the 1st gen asterisk braces too, they were way big and clunky imo, really hard to find pants that fit over them.

I remember a couple times I slipped the peg landing a jump, caught the peg with my brace and didnt even crash when I totally would have been hurt otherwise. Broke the frame on the brace and Asterisk would charge like 300$ to fix it each time.
Moto520
Posts
3632
Joined
2/4/2013
Location
Schaumburg, IL US
4/27/2021 11:28am
Knee braces can be very effective you do two things that most riders NEVER do. #1 - Adjust them so they lock your legs out before...
Knee braces can be very effective you do two things that most riders NEVER do.

#1 - Adjust them so they lock your legs out before full extension.
#2 - Use the anti-rotation strap that locks the brace to your boot. This makes it so your ankle and knee axis of rotation stay parallel. This effectively eliminates TWISTING of the knee. Most ACL tears have some component of external rotation. By locking your boot to the brake, rotation is spread up your leg to your hip joint.

If you adjust your knee brakes like this....you will understand why your knee is much less likely to get torn up.

100% credit to Jason Thomas on both these tips. He mentioned this on the PulpMX Show many years ago, and he was right on the money.
If you use the anti-rotation straps then the energy goes elsewhere. I would think you would increase a dislocated hip or ankle with the anti-rotation strap setup. What do you think?
1
soggy
Posts
8775
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
UT US
4/27/2021 12:19pm
Knee braces can be very effective you do two things that most riders NEVER do. #1 - Adjust them so they lock your legs out before...
Knee braces can be very effective you do two things that most riders NEVER do.

#1 - Adjust them so they lock your legs out before full extension.
#2 - Use the anti-rotation strap that locks the brace to your boot. This makes it so your ankle and knee axis of rotation stay parallel. This effectively eliminates TWISTING of the knee. Most ACL tears have some component of external rotation. By locking your boot to the brake, rotation is spread up your leg to your hip joint.

If you adjust your knee brakes like this....you will understand why your knee is much less likely to get torn up.

100% credit to Jason Thomas on both these tips. He mentioned this on the PulpMX Show many years ago, and he was right on the money.
Moto520 wrote:
If you use the anti-rotation straps then the energy goes elsewhere. I would think you would increase a dislocated hip or ankle with the anti-rotation strap...
If you use the anti-rotation straps then the energy goes elsewhere. I would think you would increase a dislocated hip or ankle with the anti-rotation strap setup. What do you think?
Yes most of the energy would go to the hip/femur
Hammer 663s
Posts
3090
Joined
6/2/2016
Location
Forest Grove, OR US
4/27/2021 12:55pm
I've been running Leatt C Frames for years, and am going to try out the Dual Axis this week for the first time. This thread got me thinking like Keefer - you don't know what might work until you try. At $90 it's cheap enough to try a change. If I don't like the Leatt I might try the TP199.

I broke my left femur in a crash years ago (way before any knee braces were around!), stretched my left ACL/MCL in football, and then tore the left meniscus years later in moto. Then I bulged 2 discs in L4/5 last year plus lawn darted into a whoop and messed up my left shoulder. I've rehabbed from all pretty successfully. At 58 I'm still riding, and I now pay very close attention to technique, fitness, and how much I weigh. Anything over 185 I can feel the change in impact from jumps etc so I try to stay there or below. I work hard to keep muscle mass high, maintain flexibility, and keep aerobic stamina. I think all have helped minimize the injuries I have had plus improved my recovery times.

It's a rough sport. No matter your age/fitness/speed or the gear you wear sometimes you are gonna get hurt. Soft sacks of meat hitting the ground at high velocity tend to go splat.

Hammer 663s
1
sesker15
Posts
1054
Joined
4/14/2008
Location
Upper Marlboro, MD US
4/27/2021 1:56pm
I have been a knee pad guy forever. When i would get dressed at the track people would look at me like i was crazy because i did not have knee braces. I recently tore my ACL,PCL and MCL in a freak accident. I got ran off the track in a race. On the side of the track was some grown up brush. I was going about 5mph and a little tree snagged my foot and twisted my knee, tearing my ACL, MCL and PCL.
I recently returned to riding and now i have the Asterisk carbon cell braces. They are light and low profile. So i do not mind them.
For the guys that have worn braces all thier life and now have switch to pads. Its like taking the condom off LOL.
2
T-MAC
Posts
659
Joined
8/15/2011
Location
Trabuco Canyon, CA US
4/30/2021 12:44pm
mwilcox349 wrote:
Here's mine. Guess where the knee brace was? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/04/23/489227/s1200_479010_3565931668083_154063018_o.jpg[/img]
Here's mine. Guess where the knee brace was?

This is unfortunate and I can see why you'd have the strong assumption that the knee brace caused the femur fracture. However this still isn't really sufficient evidence, femurs break commonly in this spot all the time brace or no brace. The reality is a study like this would be very time and cost intensive, and this industry isn't quite big enough to support it. What would the damage have looked like if you weren't wearing a brace? It's a tough one to evaluate and answer.

People ruin their knees both with and without knee braces. People fracture femurs with and without knee braces. People get concussions with helmets on. This protective equipment is designed to help reduce impact/loads to the body, but nothing is guaranteed.

Sadly our bubble is pretty small and there is no strong clinical studies done on knee brace efficacy in motocross, however there is a really good one that was conducted on skiers by Dr. Steadman and crew. They saw a significantly reduced number of knee injuries in the braced vs non-braced group. I think it's reasonable to say that skiing exhibits some of the leg vulnerability that we see in motocross.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16870823/

That being said, I do agree that most knee braces in their current design do not resist ACL damage (rotational injury mechanism) as well as we'd want (they definitely help), but they are pretty damn good at MCL/PCL injury prevention though. Just because you put a knee brace on doesn't mean you're safe. Also, the heavier/fatter you are, the less effective knee braces become as you're strapping around more soft tissue. This is why I'm a believer in the "brace to bone" brace philosophy because we are trying to "anchor to" and prevent unwanted movement in the skeletal system at the end of the day.
4
Preston412
Posts
982
Joined
10/5/2012
Location
Saint Augustine, FL US
Fantasy
4/30/2021 1:40pm
I have had 1 knee reconstruction surgery and 2 arthroscopes. I have worn several different brands of braces, six six one knee pads and even Mueller braces I got at CVS.
The twist in the knee can occur regardless of the brace, some less than others. Braces are good for preventing a complete tear of the ACL or a blown out knee from a side bend ( I think called lateral bend).

I have had my best results from proper exercise routines that target specific muscles in the leg and have not been back to Dr. Orthopedic since taken his advice on what exercises to do every week.

2
Hammer 663s
Posts
3090
Joined
6/2/2016
Location
Forest Grove, OR US
4/30/2021 2:08pm
I wore the Leatt Dual Axis guards last night for my races at PIR. I didn't really even notice them, other than the lower strap around my left calf was a bit too tight. They were lighter, less bulky, and more comfortable than the C Frames I am so very used to. I especially appreciated that the Dual Axis kit didn't hang up on my shrouds when I got my leg up there in the corners. That was always an issue on the C Frame for me even with the single-sided hinge design.

I didn't dab or crash and I didn't take any roost (2 holeshots helped me stay out of the roost!), so I can't say they worked "better" or not than a brace. I'll wear them for a while and see how it goes.

Hammer 663s
4
T-MAC
Posts
659
Joined
8/15/2011
Location
Trabuco Canyon, CA US
4/30/2021 2:33pm Edited Date/Time 4/30/2021 4:41pm
Preston412 is spot on. The most important thing you can do to prevent knee injuries is to develop good strong leg muscles around the knee joint. And while a knee brace can and does help with ACL injury reduction, I think they provide the most protection on the MCL/PCL front, which occurs in varus/valgus collapse injuries (lateral bend as referenced above) and hyperextension scenarios.

Motocross is just as much mental as it is physical, so wear what makes you feel comfortable and confident, and do everything you can for injury prevention (build strong leg muscles, good riding technique, etc.).

Knee pads are light and comfortable, and provide moderate impact protection. Knee braces are a little more cumbersome, but they do provide ligament protection, and typically better impact protection than sleeve pads.
450
Posts
141
Joined
9/30/2009
Location
Big Rapids, MI US
4/30/2021 4:03pm
My own personal experience with knee braces is I had a crash in 2013. Torn ACL, MCL, PCL and miniscus. This was while wearing custom fit prescription cti braces. I do still wear braces today but I definitely feel more mobile on the bike with knee pads. For the braces to be utilized fully they need to be tethered to the boot. I have this on my ski boots but never used it in moto yet.

Post a reply to: Keefer’s knee guards vs knee brace test

The Latest