Champion on worst bike

Question
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5/4/2020 6:16am
hartebreak wrote:
Lots of opinion posts floating around due to the Rona Boredom Syndrome. My question is Who won a title on what could be argued as one...
Lots of opinion posts floating around due to the Rona Boredom Syndrome.
My question is

Who won a title on what could be argued as one of the worst bikes in the class at the time. I'm going with Albertyn winning the MX title in 1999 on that POS Zuke.

What you got?
In his podcast, Albee said his 94 GP bike was awful, but his 95 USA bike was good, then his 96,97,98 USA bike was a constant...
In his podcast, Albee said his 94 GP bike was awful, but his 95 USA bike was good, then his 96,97,98 USA bike was a constant development, but the 99 bike that he won the championship on was great.

I was recently writing about Tortelli, and the what ifs (1 year in lites, stayed at kawi, same trainer). I sincerely believe we didn't see the real tortelli (96/97/98) when he was in the US.

But I almost could say the same about Albee. On the Honda De Groot, he quite demolished the gp scene in 92 and 93 with a title in 125 then 250. He then never showed that type of speed and confidence later on the yellow bike.

It is true that RC may have won on a quad, but I think most riders, even JS7 or MC, could have had different career with more brand loyalty (if proposed) or sometimes just more luck regarding the bike evolutions (ie. JS7 2009 vs 2010+, CR 96/97 I think had Honda kept the steel frame MC would have won even more races). It is hard to get to the top and to stay there, 1 change, 1 click in the program can often derail it.
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Crush
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5/4/2020 7:24am
hartebreak wrote:
Lots of opinion posts floating around due to the Rona Boredom Syndrome. My question is Who won a title on what could be argued as one...
Lots of opinion posts floating around due to the Rona Boredom Syndrome.
My question is

Who won a title on what could be argued as one of the worst bikes in the class at the time. I'm going with Albertyn winning the MX title in 1999 on that POS Zuke.

What you got?
In his podcast, Albee said his 94 GP bike was awful, but his 95 USA bike was good, then his 96,97,98 USA bike was a constant...
In his podcast, Albee said his 94 GP bike was awful, but his 95 USA bike was good, then his 96,97,98 USA bike was a constant development, but the 99 bike that he won the championship on was great.
Question wrote:
I was recently writing about Tortelli, and the what ifs (1 year in lites, stayed at kawi, same trainer). I sincerely believe we didn't see the...

I was recently writing about Tortelli, and the what ifs (1 year in lites, stayed at kawi, same trainer). I sincerely believe we didn't see the real tortelli (96/97/98) when he was in the US.

But I almost could say the same about Albee. On the Honda De Groot, he quite demolished the gp scene in 92 and 93 with a title in 125 then 250. He then never showed that type of speed and confidence later on the yellow bike.

It is true that RC may have won on a quad, but I think most riders, even JS7 or MC, could have had different career with more brand loyalty (if proposed) or sometimes just more luck regarding the bike evolutions (ie. JS7 2009 vs 2010+, CR 96/97 I think had Honda kept the steel frame MC would have won even more races). It is hard to get to the top and to stay there, 1 change, 1 click in the program can often derail it.
Watch the 93 GP season and I don’t think we ever saw Albee like that again. Honda fucked that up for sure!!!
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DoctorJD
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5/4/2020 7:34am
TG130 wrote:
My vote goes to Broc Glover on his air cooled YZ 490's winning the 500 title in 1981, 83, & 85 against the best works bikes...
My vote goes to Broc Glover on his air cooled YZ 490's winning the 500 title in 1981, 83, & 85 against the best works bikes of the day.
Winner.

I think Broc Glover is one of the most under-appreciated riders in history. His rides on those production-based YZs versus the full factory bikes is the stuff of legend IMO. The guy beat David Bailey riding a full factory RC500 on a pig YZ490. And yes, Rick Johnson gets credit, as well. Dude was a busted wheel away from winning a 250 title on one.
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Lightning78
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5/4/2020 7:38am
TG130 wrote:
My vote goes to Broc Glover on his air cooled YZ 490's winning the 500 title in 1981, 83, & 85 against the best works bikes...
My vote goes to Broc Glover on his air cooled YZ 490's winning the 500 title in 1981, 83, & 85 against the best works bikes of the day.
I was gonna say.....theres NO better answer to this thread than Glovers YZ490. Not only were the works Hondas substantially superior, Gkover was riding a production based YZ490 not a works level of what was available kind of bike at the time.
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The Shop

mxrose3
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5/4/2020 8:09am
RJ almost..... almost winning the title in 82' on the new water cooled - radiator on the forks production YZ250. That thing had to be top-heavy.
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brimx153
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5/4/2020 9:45am
Stew on his 125 in 2004, Henry on the 400 in 98, Glover on the 490
Henry on the 400 ??? , he had a great bike that year
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Zycki11
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5/4/2020 10:02am
Forty wrote:
2002 Travis Preston. Husky 125.
2001*. Preston was on FC Honda in 2002.
And Preston said that 125 was fast as hell. He said he couldn’t believe what they did with that engine
ns503
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5/4/2020 10:35am
10000hrs wrote:
Gary Jones on a Can Am

AMAHOF
Think I will have to disagree there.

Can-Am took the top 3 in the Championship that year. Not likely something that would have happened with a POS bike.

Talking that particular bike, that particular year, against what the other manufacturers were putting out.
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Gukamonster
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5/4/2020 10:51am
Joel Smets won the 500cc World title in 1995, 1997 and 1998 on a Husaberg four stroke. Some of those bikes were ok and some not so good from stories I have heard.
Wandell
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5/4/2020 10:53am
I think it was the 98 KX125 that was pretty bad. But Pro Circuit worked it's magic and RC was becoming The GOAT.
But Glover's YZ490 against a works RC500 Honda has to be at the top of the list. Honorable mention to RJ almost beating Hansen's works RC250 on a production based YZ. What's really impressive is that Hansen was at the top of his game and his RC250 works bike was so far ahead of the other works bikes in 1982.
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HackMan162
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5/4/2020 12:44pm
mxrose3 wrote:
RJ almost..... almost winning the title in 82' on the new water cooled - radiator on the forks production YZ250. That thing had to be top-heavy.
RJ dropped the radiator at some of the races in 82 and had an air cooled top end. And still damn near won the title.
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Ted722
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5/4/2020 12:47pm Edited Date/Time 5/4/2020 1:04pm
RJ and Golden Boy put on a show at the ‘84 USGP. Each with a chance to win the overall well into the 2nd moto, with Glover ultimately prevailing.

Look at that sea of HRC to the outside of Bad Boy.


‘84 USGP Champ (one of my favorite pics)


I do have one observation, though. The ‘81 and ‘83 OW’s that Glover won two of his three 500cc National championships on weren’t exactly chopped liver. Or were they?


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Park Boys
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5/4/2020 1:00pm
Stew on his 125 in 2004, Henry on the 400 in 98, Glover on the 490
brimx153 wrote:
Henry on the 400 ??? , he had a great bike that year
Yeah, there are those that think Henry would not have won if not on that bike. I’m not one of them but that was the start of what we see now. Plus wasn’t it really a 426ish the whole time?
5/4/2020 1:26pm
TG130 wrote:
My vote goes to Broc Glover on his air cooled YZ 490's winning the 500 title in 1981, 83, & 85 against the best works bikes...
My vote goes to Broc Glover on his air cooled YZ 490's winning the 500 title in 1981, 83, & 85 against the best works bikes of the day.
DoctorJD wrote:
Winner. I think Broc Glover is one of the most under-appreciated riders in history. His rides on those production-based YZs versus the full factory bikes is...
Winner.

I think Broc Glover is one of the most under-appreciated riders in history. His rides on those production-based YZs versus the full factory bikes is the stuff of legend IMO. The guy beat David Bailey riding a full factory RC500 on a pig YZ490. And yes, Rick Johnson gets credit, as well. Dude was a busted wheel away from winning a 250 title on one.
Without a doubt Glover on the 490 has to be in the top 3.
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Falcon
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5/4/2020 2:07pm
Pretty much every champion since 2004 has been on a 4-stroke, and those are the worst. Tongue Laughing
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5/4/2020 2:44pm
nytsmaC wrote:
James Stewart on his KX125 demolishing a field packed with 250F’s has to be the biggest disadvantage in history. People still don’t think they can be...
James Stewart on his KX125 demolishing a field packed with 250F’s has to be the biggest disadvantage in history. People still don’t think they can be competitive in the C class on a 125.

If not for RC his KX250 days would take top honours. If that guy didn’t prove it was 90% rider 10% bike I don’t know what would. The sport hasn’t been the same since.
Couldn't agree more! Start in 20th and WIN by a mile!
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TG130
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5/4/2020 9:24pm
mac3-d wrote:
Harry Everts GP World Champ on the Puch 250 in 1975
Wasn't that the twin carbed bike ?

MXA did a test years ago (early to mid 90's I estimate). They had the actual bike that Everts rode and ran it against modern 250's of the day. The Puch smoked every modern bike every time off the line, it was no contest. The bike was a rocket ship. No suspension compared to the modern bikes, but the motor was ahead of it's time.
1
captain.olives
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5/4/2020 11:24pm
TG130 wrote:
My vote goes to Broc Glover on his air cooled YZ 490's winning the 500 title in 1981, 83, & 85 against the best works bikes...
My vote goes to Broc Glover on his air cooled YZ 490's winning the 500 title in 1981, 83, & 85 against the best works bikes of the day.
Hands down Broc Glover on that YZ490 against Honda's works bikes and Bailey in his prime. Almost like comparing a chinese bike to a Pro Circuit Kawasaki these days. The works Honda RC's were THAT much better.

Second would be Rick Johnson on his 82 Yamaha losing the championship to Donnie Hansen's works Honda RC in the last race.

I recall hearing an interview where Hannah reportedly offered Decoster that he would ride for Honda for FREE and would only ask for win bonuses if he could get a ride on the works Honda's in 83. His production based 82 Yamaha reportedly being 20 or 30lbs heavier than the Honda works RC. Rick Johnson also testified to how much better the Honda's were even a few years later... so Broc Glover gets my vote. The 80's Yamahas had some tough years and were not on par with their competition for some time.

Broc is also probably one of if not the most underrated national champion. 6 time national champion against a plethora of Hall of Fame riders. I think folks sometimes forget how good he was and how hard he had to work to get those last 3 championships on an inferior bike. Certainly left out of some conversations he should be in with the casual fans.

Great thread! The 80's Honda Factory team was a juggernaut, beating the riders or the bikes was an accomplishment. Also a number of greats with their careers cut short. Magoo,Hansen, and Bailey.
3
5/5/2020 12:09am
In his podcast, Albee said his 94 GP bike was awful, but his 95 USA bike was good, then his 96,97,98 USA bike was a constant...
In his podcast, Albee said his 94 GP bike was awful, but his 95 USA bike was good, then his 96,97,98 USA bike was a constant development, but the 99 bike that he won the championship on was great.
Question wrote:
I was recently writing about Tortelli, and the what ifs (1 year in lites, stayed at kawi, same trainer). I sincerely believe we didn't see the...

I was recently writing about Tortelli, and the what ifs (1 year in lites, stayed at kawi, same trainer). I sincerely believe we didn't see the real tortelli (96/97/98) when he was in the US.

But I almost could say the same about Albee. On the Honda De Groot, he quite demolished the gp scene in 92 and 93 with a title in 125 then 250. He then never showed that type of speed and confidence later on the yellow bike.

It is true that RC may have won on a quad, but I think most riders, even JS7 or MC, could have had different career with more brand loyalty (if proposed) or sometimes just more luck regarding the bike evolutions (ie. JS7 2009 vs 2010+, CR 96/97 I think had Honda kept the steel frame MC would have won even more races). It is hard to get to the top and to stay there, 1 change, 1 click in the program can often derail it.
Crush wrote:
Watch the 93 GP season and I don’t think we ever saw Albee like that again. Honda fucked that up for sure!!!
Just another example of Honda’s arrogance. How many riders have they done that to?

Albee
RC
Rossi.

Who else?
1
1
5/5/2020 12:13am
Joel Smets won the 500cc World title in 1995, 1997 and 1998 on a Husaberg four stroke. Some of those bikes were ok and some not...
Joel Smets won the 500cc World title in 1995, 1997 and 1998 on a Husaberg four stroke. Some of those bikes were ok and some not so good from stories I have heard.
You could argue that Smets had the BEST bike in the class at the time- pro riders had already decided at that point that they could go faster with less power, hence the 250 class becoming the premier class around 92/93/94.
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MXMattii
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5/5/2020 4:06pm
Joel Smets won the 500cc World title in 1995, 1997 and 1998 on a Husaberg four stroke. Some of those bikes were ok and some not...
Joel Smets won the 500cc World title in 1995, 1997 and 1998 on a Husaberg four stroke. Some of those bikes were ok and some not so good from stories I have heard.
You could argue that Smets had the BEST bike in the class at the time- pro riders had already decided at that point that they could...
You could argue that Smets had the BEST bike in the class at the time- pro riders had already decided at that point that they could go faster with less power, hence the 250 class becoming the premier class around 92/93/94.
The most interesting is that Joel Smets kept himself with his Husaberg competitive in the Belgian National Championship against Marnicq Bervoets, Werner Dewit, Peter Iven and occasional Stefan Everts, Pit Beirer, ...

I guess that Jacky Martens and his Husqvarna 610cc would count too, because the bike was amazingly powerful but it handled damn hard.
toroP
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5/5/2020 6:24pm
RC’s 2003 SX set up made for one awkward looking bike. He looked like he was riding a
Sears 106.
1
5/5/2020 6:29pm
Well KR94 won the 2016 title on that dinosaur RMZ450. I know that bike is bad because I read it on here one time!
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Sully
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5/5/2020 8:00pm Edited Date/Time 5/5/2020 8:01pm
Ted722 wrote:
RJ and Golden Boy put on a show at the ‘84 USGP. Each with a chance to win the overall well into the 2nd moto, with...
RJ and Golden Boy put on a show at the ‘84 USGP. Each with a chance to win the overall well into the 2nd moto, with Glover ultimately prevailing.

Look at that sea of HRC to the outside of Bad Boy.


‘84 USGP Champ (one of my favorite pics)


I do have one observation, though. The ‘81 and ‘83 OW’s that Glover won two of his three 500cc National championships on weren’t exactly chopped liver. Or were they?


I can't remember where I saw it (MX Files maybe?), but I watched/read an interview with Broc talking about how bad the shock faded on those 490s at the end of motos. So not only did he have to manage an air cooled, under powered engine, but he also had to keep his rear shock working for 2 45 minute motos as well. The dude was a damn monster - and one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to talk to.
1
Bruce372
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5/5/2020 10:09pm
Stefan everts world champion on the 1997 Honda cr250
dv12.com
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5/5/2020 10:15pm
Although a 125 World Title, I’d say hands down, Alessio Chiodi in the 90’s on that yellow & blue Husky..
That was hands down the best bike actually...
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dv12.com
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5/5/2020 10:17pm
Mike Bell SX in 81 & RC on the 450 Zook...
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Crush
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5/5/2020 10:19pm
Just another example of Honda’s arrogance. How many riders have they done that to?

Albee
RC
Rossi.

Who else?
MC obviously... I don't think they boot Marquez just based on the fact that he still seems to be the guy and seems to be patient enough to work through "worse" bikes/frames etc with the team.

What will be interesting is if they do it to the next guy for MX... because it's been a long long long time for them since being at the top.

After MC, they were back on top 7 or so years later with RC. Since RC, it's been 16 or 17 years? You'd assume Kenny is the underdog still for a bit...

1
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Ryan625
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5/5/2020 11:16pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Stefan everts world champion on the 1997 Honda cr250
Strongly disagree. Look into what that bike was, it was a work of art and not at all a production bike. The frame alone was probably worth more than I make in a year, it was hand assembled from billet pieces.
1
Question
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5/5/2020 11:25pm Edited Date/Time 5/5/2020 11:27pm
Question wrote:
I was recently writing about Tortelli, and the what ifs (1 year in lites, stayed at kawi, same trainer). I sincerely believe we didn't see the...

I was recently writing about Tortelli, and the what ifs (1 year in lites, stayed at kawi, same trainer). I sincerely believe we didn't see the real tortelli (96/97/98) when he was in the US.

But I almost could say the same about Albee. On the Honda De Groot, he quite demolished the gp scene in 92 and 93 with a title in 125 then 250. He then never showed that type of speed and confidence later on the yellow bike.

It is true that RC may have won on a quad, but I think most riders, even JS7 or MC, could have had different career with more brand loyalty (if proposed) or sometimes just more luck regarding the bike evolutions (ie. JS7 2009 vs 2010+, CR 96/97 I think had Honda kept the steel frame MC would have won even more races). It is hard to get to the top and to stay there, 1 change, 1 click in the program can often derail it.
Crush wrote:
Watch the 93 GP season and I don’t think we ever saw Albee like that again. Honda fucked that up for sure!!!
Just another example of Honda’s arrogance. How many riders have they done that to?

Albee
RC
Rossi.

Who else?
Good point ;

actually JMB.

Firstly when he moved to the US in 89, he got support from DeCoster and Payton, but not American Honda whereas he was HRC in the GPs.

Secondly when he decided to move to road racing, he got no support too and did it with his own money at the beginning. At his first gp in 250 in 92 in france, he raced a kitted honda that was a snail compared to the factory bikes. I was there, just as a kid, and honestly it was a bit embarrassing ; you know, JMB had that kind of superstar status back then and he qualified last and got lapped about mid race. Maybe Honda tried to keep him in MX at that time by showing he would be ridiculous in road racing.

Then he created a private team in 93 and raced a kitted aprilia, went to the factory aprilia team in 94/95, then got a factory yamaha in GP500. Problem, after Rainey's era, the yamaha bikes were quite competitive in 96 but not in the same zip code with hondas (Doohan, Criville). Then in 97/98/99 he never got a competitive equipment (a work in progress, 3 cylinders, then 4, then 3, lost of mechanicals, etc)

Bayle still scored the best GP500 championship results for a french during the 90's and 2000s, finishing 9th in his rookie season in 96. He then got unlucky with team changes, and pushing the enveloppe to compensate he also ended up injuring himself. But I am 99% sure he would have ended a few championships on the podium if Honda would have kept him at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Michel_Bayle

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