Yamaha Question

cwtoyota
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cwtoyota 4/15/2019 11:53am
4/15/2019 11:53am
ga_pike wrote:
I see on here quite often how people refer to the Yamaha 450 as a fat pig, etc... we don't see the same results from them...
I see on here quite often how people refer to the Yamaha 450 as a fat pig, etc... we don't see the same results from them as we do KTM and Kawi. However, the 250's seem to be very good bikes with top guys contending each week.

What's the difference? Is it the riders? Or is there something "wrong" with the current Yamaha 450?
cwtoyota wrote:
I haven't ridden the latest gen 2018 / 2019 YZ450F, but have ridden the '19 YZ250F and all the older YZ450F models. TLDR: My opinion is...
I haven't ridden the latest gen 2018 / 2019 YZ450F, but have ridden the '19 YZ250F and all the older YZ450F models.
TLDR: My opinion is that Yamaha's engine tuning philosophy is why their 450cc motorcycle feels heavy and slow.


When the 2010 YZ450 (first reversed engine model) came out, I rode one and it was a terrible chassis.
Any other motorcycle felt better entering corners than that model. Apparently Yamaha had the balance and engine position wrong and the guys with engine relocation kits (Dubach) were saying that was a major improvement.

When the second generation reversed engine model ( 2014 YZ450F) was allegedly "fixed", I bought one after riding the YZ250F which shares the same basic chassis and bodywork. I loved the YZ250F, it was a little fat at the gas-tank, but handled well and the engine was great.

The '14 model had a terrible transition from off throttle to on throttle, a ton of engine braking and a ton of sudden torque. It really upset the chassis in flat or off-camber low speed turns.
Also, that model felt like it was made of rubber under hard acceleration out of rutted corners. I believe the chassis was flawed and the extremely powerful engine exposed those flaws. I sold that clunker after 6 months of trying all kinds of stuff to make it work. Jumped on my buddy's '13 KX450F and felt confident immediately.

Even thought that previous model felt like a fat pig, if you measured the frame rails, it was actually narrow compared to other bikes that don't get those complaints. The trouble was with the shape of the shrouds and the shape of the fuel tank. Where your boots, knees, leg contact the bike that shape made the bike feel wide.

The '19 YZ250F feels amazing on the track and feels narrow to me. The suspension is almost perfect and the chassis handles great. I'm keen to ride the new model of the 450F, but I won't spend the money on another YZ450F until I've ridden one back to back with the Husky and the Kawi.

I rode the Husky Rockstar bike yesterday and it feels as narrow and light in the corners as my 250 two-stroke. It also has substantially less engine braking than any other 450F I've been on (without an auto clutch).

Knowing that the new generation of YZ450F weighs about 3000 lbs more than the Husky/KTM and Kawi and that Yamaha seems to have this low-end grunt / heavy engine braking feel to all of their 450cc motorcycles for the past 20 years, I cannot imagine their bike feels as light as the Husky/KTM and the Kawasaki. I really think Yamaha's engine philosophy is their biggest problem in the 450F model, engine braking makes a bike feel heavy and bad on/off throttle transition upsets even the best chassis.
Motofinne wrote:
"I haven't ridden the latest gen 2018 / 2019 YZ450F" You should stop right there. I rode the 2017 YZF 450 and disliked it a lot...
"I haven't ridden the latest gen 2018 / 2019 YZ450F"

You should stop right there.

I rode the 2017 YZF 450 and disliked it a lot. Then i rode the 18 and got blown away and ended up buying one a few weeks later. The current gen YZF is a huge step forward compared to the old bikes, especially for smaller riders like me (175 cm).

You might dislike the new gen Yamaha too. But the step they took was so big that i think it's BS to use the old ones as reference. I mean, nobody are using the 2014 KTM as a reference in 2019?
There's a reason I started with that statement. I was very clear with how I formed that initial opinion and the fact that I have not ridden the latest version of their motorcycle. How is that BS? Seems like straight honest shit to me.

I think you also missed the part where I said "The '19 YZ250F feels amazing on the track and feels narrow to me. The suspension is almost perfect and the chassis handles great. I'm keen to ride the new model of the 450F"

Doesn't that seem like I have an open mind that the new 450F is also substantially improved?
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JM485
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JM485 4/15/2019 12:26pm
4/15/2019 12:26pm
Could it be possible that different riders prefer different characteristics of a bike, and that there is no “better” bike for everyone? Or is that too crazy of a possibility to even be considered. . .
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cwtoyota
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cwtoyota 4/15/2019 1:02pm
4/15/2019 1:02pm
JM485 wrote:
Could it be possible that different riders prefer different characteristics of a bike, and that there is no “better” bike for everyone? Or is that too...
Could it be possible that different riders prefer different characteristics of a bike, and that there is no “better” bike for everyone? Or is that too crazy of a possibility to even be considered. . .
This is almost always true..

I've loved bikes that friends have hated in the past, and vice versa. On the track, we ran similar lap times and battled racing on those same bikes.

Occasionally there are bikes that are unanimously bad and bikes that are unanimously great as well as riders who can adapt to almost any bike.
2
mattyhamz2 4/15/2019 1:20pm
4/15/2019 1:20pm
JM485 wrote:
Could it be possible that different riders prefer different characteristics of a bike, and that there is no “better” bike for everyone? Or is that too...
Could it be possible that different riders prefer different characteristics of a bike, and that there is no “better” bike for everyone? Or is that too crazy of a possibility to even be considered. . .
Hey Bro, don't be bringing logic into this! You can't do that. Bike X sucks and Bike Y is the best all while Bike Z is meh
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ferd22
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ferd22 4/15/2019 1:22pm
4/15/2019 1:22pm
From listening to some interviews from Webb and Reed, it seems like the 18 bike wasn’t really the issue. Webb all but said the 17 bike was a pig. Mentioned that he ran 2 seconds a lap faster on a stock 18 than his factory 17. Then when he got a factory 18 he felt more uncomfortable than the stock bike. Compared to KTMs racing team Yamaha is a bunch of amateurs. Bike to bike straight up may not be a huge gap but getting that bike dialed and the riders ready for race day.... KTM is miles ahead of Yamaha and that’s why we see the results we do.
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rob162
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rob162 4/15/2019 1:45pm
4/15/2019 1:45pm
Yz450f great bike outdoors. They have tons of positive traits for MX. Indoors is another thing rode a 17 and 18 450 on a toned down private sx track with a a sx set uplast year and it felt nothing like riding them on a mx track with a mx setup. I rode a 15 i belive also on this track a couple years back felt the same way then as i do now. Great outdoors not so great indoors.
WheelieNelson 4/15/2019 1:48pm
4/15/2019 1:48pm
Drives me nuts that people bring up previous gens when asked about the new bike. You wouldn't bring up a 2009 crf stinkbug while talking about 19 crf's would you?

The bike is damn good, I'm still so surprised every time I ride it. Biggest thing I noticed was how even and balanced it stays the whole time during breaking and accelerating where I'd expect it to dive or squat. Also it turns on flat corners really really well this year. I've been learning to cruise through the flat stuff with both feet still on the pegs its nice on my knees. I just run the stock map and I love it, strong smooth and crisp. My only gripe is the distance from the seat to pegs is a little cramped for my long legs
2
Asselstine 4/15/2019 1:51pm
4/15/2019 1:51pm
For some reason people on vital like to trash the 2019 450 shootout winner left and right, usually citing something about riding their buddies 2015 Yz450. It's laughable.
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Indy mxer
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Indy mxer 4/15/2019 2:30pm
4/15/2019 2:30pm
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
4
mattyhamz2 4/15/2019 2:40pm
4/15/2019 2:40pm
Indy mxer wrote:
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put...
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
You put that on the bike?

The Suzuki was even worse for Barcia even though Kenny won on it.
Coop admitted he was only practicing at 70-80% and felt that was the biggest change in his program for this year.
James was having concentration/head issues when he rode them in 2010-2012.
JG won a moto at Glen Helen
Febvre won a WC on it in 14.
Paulin and Seewer look damn good on them this year.

I'm sorry, but Yamaha's biggest issue is them not having a rider that can consistently run with the top guys at the top elite speed of Cairolli, Tomac, Marv, now Coop, Roczen. The bike isn't the issue.

I truly believe had Coop been practicing at 100% like he is now, he'd be winning on the Yamaha.
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cwtoyota
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cwtoyota 4/15/2019 3:17pm
4/15/2019 3:17pm
Indy mxer wrote:
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put...
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
You put that on the bike? The Suzuki was even worse for Barcia even though Kenny won on it. Coop admitted he was only practicing at...
You put that on the bike?

The Suzuki was even worse for Barcia even though Kenny won on it.
Coop admitted he was only practicing at 70-80% and felt that was the biggest change in his program for this year.
James was having concentration/head issues when he rode them in 2010-2012.
JG won a moto at Glen Helen
Febvre won a WC on it in 14.
Paulin and Seewer look damn good on them this year.

I'm sorry, but Yamaha's biggest issue is them not having a rider that can consistently run with the top guys at the top elite speed of Cairolli, Tomac, Marv, now Coop, Roczen. The bike isn't the issue.

I truly believe had Coop been practicing at 100% like he is now, he'd be winning on the Yamaha.
These top guys have access to a great deal dial in a bike too.

I think it's a bit hard to compare outdoor to indoor results, but your point about bikes, riders, and training programs is good.
FortyHat
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FortyHat 4/15/2019 7:56pm
4/15/2019 7:56pm
Disclaimer: I have not ridden a 18+ 450

I have been a YZ 2 stroke guy (a 250 and two 125s) since I got back into moto a couple years ago. I had a 20 year break so all I knew was the smokers and that's what I bought when I came back.

I rode a 17 YZ450 at a local demo day. Motor was amazing, shocking to me really. And it handled way better than my 2T through everything other than tight corners (flat tracked wide turns so well though), but it felt really really heavy, and was very thick right where you grip with your knees when standing. I told myself I didn't want to have one.

Flash forward to this year, and I wanted to try 4 strokes. I wasn't able to demo either bike before the race season started here in CO, but after hearing/reading all of the reviews, and the "sitting on the bike" test at the dealers, I went with a KX450. Hate green plastic too so it was a pill to swallow.

Love the KX, it's the best bike I've ridden so far, but I can't help but wonder how I'd feel if I'd bought the YZ instead. I will say that layout wise, once I'd changed the bars to my favorite bend and added some risers, it feels a lot like my YZ250 except flatter and thinner, which I'd love to apply to the other bike if I could. I'm 5'11 170lb and love the bigger layout of the KX. I have tried Hondas and they seem really cramped in the cockpit, and the steering was super steep compared to what I'm used to.


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Helda
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Helda 4/15/2019 9:16pm
4/15/2019 9:16pm
Dirty Points wrote:
I doubt he is paid as a title contender. He was on a fill-in ride when they extended his contract.
mxb2 wrote:
He is yamahas top dude.. he isnt hurting for money lol.
Dirty Points wrote:
I don't think he is the top paid dude on that team.
Lol, yeah? I bet you he is because sure as shit he isn't getting less than a rookie.
Lynch
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Lynch 4/15/2019 10:24pm
4/15/2019 10:24pm
kb228 wrote:
Kawis and ktms have hydraulic clutches. Everyone else doesnt. Case closed.
Some people prefer the cable feel Sideways
1
Dirty Points 4/15/2019 10:38pm
4/15/2019 10:38pm
Helda wrote:
Lol, yeah? I bet you he is because sure as shit he isn't getting less than a rookie.
Why not? The rookie was courted by multiple teams when he signed. Barcia was just off riding his own bike because he had no offers. That's the way the market works.
FGR01
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FGR01 4/15/2019 11:02pm
4/15/2019 11:02pm
Indy mxer wrote:
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put...
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last time someone over 6ft won a SX championship? Didn't think so.
Helda
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Helda 4/16/2019 2:25am
4/16/2019 2:25am
Helda wrote:
Lol, yeah? I bet you he is because sure as shit he isn't getting less than a rookie.
Dirty Points wrote:
Why not? The rookie was courted by multiple teams when he signed. Barcia was just off riding his own bike because he had no offers. That's...
Why not? The rookie was courted by multiple teams when he signed. Barcia was just off riding his own bike because he had no offers. That's the way the market works.
Ah no he wasn't, he was a fill in rider doing very well when he signed his contract....for 2 years also
Indy mxer
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Indy mxer 4/16/2019 4:19am
4/16/2019 4:19am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2019 4:19am
Indy mxer wrote:
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put...
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
You put that on the bike? The Suzuki was even worse for Barcia even though Kenny won on it. Coop admitted he was only practicing at...
You put that on the bike?

The Suzuki was even worse for Barcia even though Kenny won on it.
Coop admitted he was only practicing at 70-80% and felt that was the biggest change in his program for this year.
James was having concentration/head issues when he rode them in 2010-2012.
JG won a moto at Glen Helen
Febvre won a WC on it in 14.
Paulin and Seewer look damn good on them this year.

I'm sorry, but Yamaha's biggest issue is them not having a rider that can consistently run with the top guys at the top elite speed of Cairolli, Tomac, Marv, now Coop, Roczen. The bike isn't the issue.

I truly believe had Coop been practicing at 100% like he is now, he'd be winning on the Yamaha.
Blah, blah, blah.
Paulin is a distant 3rd in MXGP and would be 4th if Herlings was there. So that's ok I guess. Seewer is in 7th. Febvre finished the season in 6th last year on a Yamaha.

Bottom line is the Yamaha 450 hasn't won shit in 5 years. Saying it has nothing to do with the bike is putting your head in the sand. It just doesn't seem to be a great bike for the top pro's in SX or even in MX.
The 250's have been working, but for some reason the 450's are not.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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ristaone
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ristaone 4/16/2019 4:32am
4/16/2019 4:32am
Look iv jist brought a 2007 special edishion yz250f and i dont have owners manule so could any one tell me if mc4st full synthetic oil is ok to use in itits had a full rebuild befor i brought it and iv done 15 hrs on it so wont to change oil any info would be gratley appreciated due to me being a novice and this is my first bike ever
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Harry Backmon 4/16/2019 4:34am
4/16/2019 4:34am
"Blah, blah, blah."

Translation: "I've made up my mind and I'm not listening to anything you or anyone says, Matty."

As for me, I'll let you know my opinion when and if they get a top rider on the new generation. What I can tell you is everyone I know on the 19s loves them, but they're not top pros trying to make a living.
Timo_2824
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Timo_2824 4/16/2019 4:57am
4/16/2019 4:57am
FGR01 wrote:
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last...
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last time someone over 6ft won a SX championship? Didn't think so.
I love my 19 450, it's smaller than my first gen aluminum 250F. I'm only 5'7" and the new Yamaha chassis is great, the seat height is 1.5 inches lower at the back of the seat vs the old design. I don't know where this opinion about it fitting larger riders better came from. Most tall people who ride it think the seat is too low...
Indy mxer
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Indy mxer 4/16/2019 5:01am
4/16/2019 5:01am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2019 5:02am
Harry Backmon wrote:
"Blah, blah, blah." Translation: "I've made up my mind and I'm not listening to anything you or anyone says, Matty." As for me, I'll let you...
"Blah, blah, blah."

Translation: "I've made up my mind and I'm not listening to anything you or anyone says, Matty."

As for me, I'll let you know my opinion when and if they get a top rider on the new generation. What I can tell you is everyone I know on the 19s loves them, but they're not top pros trying to make a living.
Read my first post. I said that they're good bikes and amateurs love them. I ride with a guy who won't buy anything else, and I see quite a few fast riders on them at the local races.

But you can't deny they haven't been relevant in 450 SX/MX for some time. I'll continue to let my eyes be the judge.
Imo, they just can't get them to perform as well as the other brands. Obviously they have the 250's dialed in.


Blah, blah, blah translation "lame excuses".

Btw, I wish my 16 KX450 had good suspension like the Yamaha. Even FC can't get my f***ing air forks to work well.
I hope Kawasaki fired the guy who thought they were a good idea. lol
Looking at a new Kawi 450.



Hrzk75
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Hrzk75 4/17/2019 10:38am
4/17/2019 10:38am
Indy mxer wrote:
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put...
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
FGR01 wrote:
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last...
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last time someone over 6ft won a SX championship? Didn't think so.
well, Aaron plessinger is 6ft i think? 2018 sx & mx champ. i know it was on the 250 but it kind of counter your comment here
fourfourone
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fourfourone 4/17/2019 10:57am
4/17/2019 10:57am
Indy mxer wrote:
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put...
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
FGR01 wrote:
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last...
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last time someone over 6ft won a SX championship? Didn't think so.
Hrzk75 wrote:
well, Aaron plessinger is 6ft i think? 2018 sx & mx champ. i know it was on the 250 but it kind of counter your comment...
well, Aaron plessinger is 6ft i think? 2018 sx & mx champ. i know it was on the 250 but it kind of counter your comment here
he's 6'2
Hrzk75
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Hrzk75 4/17/2019 1:51pm
4/17/2019 1:51pm
FGR01 wrote:
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last...
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last time someone over 6ft won a SX championship? Didn't think so.
Hrzk75 wrote:
well, Aaron plessinger is 6ft i think? 2018 sx & mx champ. i know it was on the 250 but it kind of counter your comment...
well, Aaron plessinger is 6ft i think? 2018 sx & mx champ. i know it was on the 250 but it kind of counter your comment here
fourfourone wrote:
he's 6'2
Yeah knew he was taller, just not sure if it was 6’1 or ’2. Cheers
Underground 4/17/2019 2:12pm
4/17/2019 2:12pm
40acres wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the bike at all. You're just hearing the mouth breathers on here talk shit about the bike, which 99% of them have...
There's nothing wrong with the bike at all. You're just hearing the mouth breathers on here talk shit about the bike, which 99% of them have never ridden the thing. It does feel a little wider than the other brands, but nothing that's earth shattering. To be honest you don't even notice it unless you look directly at the shrouds and that doesn't happen once you settle in and actually ride. I think their lack of consistent success here in the 450 class can be attributed to multiple things, but they just haven't had the success with riders that fit lately here in the states as other teams have had.

And it's a reverse cylinder, not the entire engine.
I thought it was the head reversed? Tongue
Speaking of that, have you seem the intake angle on that Japanese series 2020 prototype.
FGR01
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FGR01 4/17/2019 10:17pm
4/17/2019 10:17pm
Indy mxer wrote:
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put...
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
FGR01 wrote:
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last...
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last time someone over 6ft won a SX championship? Didn't think so.
Hrzk75 wrote:
well, Aaron plessinger is 6ft i think? 2018 sx & mx champ. i know it was on the 250 but it kind of counter your comment...
well, Aaron plessinger is 6ft i think? 2018 sx & mx champ. i know it was on the 250 but it kind of counter your comment here
Kind of, but not really. In the 250 class, HP is king above all else. The Yamaha 250 is fast. In the 450 class, all the bikes are powerful enough. It becomes a matter of handling and finesse, especially in SX. Maybe Plessinger will be the first 450 SX champ over 6ft (in recent memory anyway) and maybe he'll do it on a Yamaha. Time will tell.
mwilcox349 4/17/2019 10:49pm
4/17/2019 10:49pm
Indy mxer wrote:
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put...
Obviously the 19 Yamaha 450 is a good bike for Amateurs. But for some reason they don't work for top pro's, no matter who they put on them they just don't seem to win.

And as far as Barcia goes, he can't run with the top dogs. Sad but true.
FGR01 wrote:
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last...
The Yamahas are just big overall. The YZ450 is loved by guys who are 6ft + or have really long legs. Can anyone name the last time someone over 6ft won a SX championship? Didn't think so.
Whistling .....Jason Anderson is 6ft
2
MX-LIFE.
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MX-LIFE. 4/18/2019 12:56am
4/18/2019 12:56am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Yamaha just doesn't have the riders. I don't know if it's because they aren't willing to pay for a top rider of it they just can't
But they had Webb and he seems to be a totally different Rider on the KTM
bw56
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bw56 4/18/2019 1:09am
4/18/2019 1:09am
I’m 6’1, 200lbs. I went from a 2018 CRF450R to the 2019 YZ450F. The YZ is the best bike I’ve ever owned. It’s not as nimble as the Honda in the air, but does everything else well, and the motor is amazing. It’s also cheaper to maintain.
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