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I've talked with a lot of these kids and their parents, they are on full blown factory bikes. The top Team Green kids are on the same level bike as Adam Cianciarulo. I've talked to Mitch Peyton and Ryder D's mechanic, Pro Circuit will not build me the same engine for my kids bike as they do for Ryder and Jett. When I was trying to get some details on what was done to their engines, I was told flat out that it's not available. I'm not delusional in thinking my kid could compete with them if he was on the same bike, but what about the kids finishing 7th and 8th at Loretta's? You simply can't compete with that level of support for a kid who spends 30+ hours a week on a bike. That's not amateur racing anymore.
I hate to suggest making more classes, but the playing field should be leveled. Either put these factory riders in their own class, or cap what can be done to their bikes.
Take away some of the massive advantages that certain kids are getting and it will only help the sport. It would likely prevent so many people from pulling their kids out of school too. Sure some would still do it, but it would hopefully mitigate a lot of it.
Changes need to be made, period.
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I understand the frustration this causes young kids and parents that are in the top 20% of their class. Maybe they are the fastest kid at their local races but just can't catch a break. Maybe Mom and Dad can't or won't go into huge debt to fund a full tilt race bike/s. These kids love the sport just as much as the Top Tier guy's but they are lacking in some area's, money, raw speed, conditioning......
So how do you compete with this. The short answer is you don't. You make it fun for your rider and let it be a hobby that they can do for the next 20-30 years, as a hobby. Or you fight tooth and nail to get the rules changed so that these unobtainium bikes are no longer allowed and let talent, desire and set up be the deciding factor. Keep costs in check and make it a fun sport and maybe the sport will grow a little.
Will any of this happen? I don't see it changing anytime soon. There are enough PC's TLD's Red Bull KTM's, Blu Cru, Team Greens ...that can afford to buy these riders early and bring them up through the ranks. The OEM's will always have the upper hand. They can spend tens of thousands on a bike to make it as perfect as it can be. How many families can do that on a budget? How many people have access to a track 24/7/365? Trainers, nutritionists, riding coaches, practice mechanics? the list goes on and on.
We live in a world of Dance Mom's and Mini Dad's that will stop at nothing so that little Jenny and Johnnie become Stars. This may be the hardest thing of all to overcome. How many really talented kids leave the sport because Dad is just too into it, and Jr. is just sick of getting screamed at every day?
You also have to remember that the cream always rises to the top. There are only 1% of the 1 per-centers. Those are the kids with the most talent, drive, determination, and desire to be great. Opportunity seems to always find it's way to these kids, whether they are from Podunk or Haynes City is doesn't matter, if your fast someone will notice.
Alabama pays it's players $0
The sport will be much better off with a diverse group of riders.. and fans. You always need the next gen of fans too to keep the sport around. Im excited to see Jo Shimoda go pro the Japanese kid who won MEC and he could pave the way for more asian fans/riders which is an enormous anount of people which could be huuuuge for the sport. He brings a style of racing that you dont see here or in the GPs and I think its great for the sport, I see big things from him. I think its a bigger issue than just keeping it competitive and we need to keep the sport accessible as well. Less and less people are riding these days opting for video games or school sports so our future depends on the next generation of riders and fans. Opening the sport up to people who may never even have known what it was but have someone to root for is the best thing that could happen.
But good idea - good enough it's adopted...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o390D05AqeE
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketballs-f…
And by the way, those guys are 18-22 year olds who have to be in school. Not 13 year olds getting pulled out of school.
I DO agree you can't buy what PC races - although you CAN BUY what won loretta's in 2017 in supermini 1 and supermini 2 straight from me
I built that engine and it will likely be one of the last fully private efforts to win for years to come. Bikes paid for - not given, fully private program with zero support outside of parents and graphics/gear.
This year for example - the big players for KTM all had the new 105 kit - and the "privateers" couldn't even buy it yet from KTM. That's bullshit.
But fundamentally - the factory kids and avg joe kids should race the same classes. The dream of loretta's is NOT to just MAKE it. It's to MAKE it against the entire USA talent pool. That is what makes loretta's special.
There are only ever 4-5 factory supported riders in any class. We often work with customers from 5-10 who dont get a damn thing
So that leaves 38 spots for the rest of us. Don't believe all you hear about people saying they get support - most are full of it.
One of my customers won 450B in 2017 and he STILL doesn't get anything.
He was top finishing ktm/husky rider at Mini o's in pro in 2018...full private effort and has ZERO talks right now from any team despite beating all their riders.
We want the races to find the best riders - put those riders in contact with the teams - and get them a paying ride at pro.
Sadly its' not working out as intended as many of the great riders are NOT getting a team gig and many of the team kids are NOT panning out to be better at pro. I say it to my guys - if you don't already have a ride by big bikes - good luck! The teams have already picked some kids - and have MORE kids in the pipeline - so you'd have to show without a shadow of a doubt that your better than their pick all year... not easy.
That's why a series would be better giving more diversity of tracks and tougher tracks closer to what the pros race and not just 1 time a year and allow kids who are CONSISTENTLY up front to get attention.
we also need a legit super cross grooming circuit - a minor leagues.
Marchbanks is an example - If he can enter outdoors healthy - he will be fast.
But SX is kicking his ass....
It is very important for the sport to have the paid amateur racers, it would just be great to educate the parents more and to make them realice a bit earlier that they not gonna make it and they need a backup plan.
I meant two classes max at all open meetings.
I don't mind whatever ya can enter for normal 1 day club meetings as thats more money for the club but these "Opens" need to be capped.
I know an engine builder over there (USA) who has built engines for a couple of supermini riders who placed 1st at LL's i wont divulge the cost but it was mind blowing what was poured into the bikes of these riders
Every country has his good riders and championships. So the chances to get support from a good team is there. But i have to say that many riders are paying their way through these amateur years with personal sponsors. But definitely not 200k a year.
So, let's say you are a good 85cc rider from the Netherlands. Most riders that have the talent and determination ride the Dutch Championship races. You have 2 different associations to choose from. KNMV (always has the biggest talents) and MON (more regional south of the country). A good 85cc rider rides KNMV (+ Dutch Masters) and combines this with a few ADAC races. Then you have around 4 European Championship qualifying races. These qualifiers get you to the final in Czech Republic. Most of these 85cc rides are not paid for by teams, unless you are a very big talent like Kay de Wolf. And even he had heavy investments from his familiy and personal sponsors in his first few years.
Here is a video of a Dutch Championship race (not a Dutch Masters). The level is really high as these guys were in the top 5 during the EMX final as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3dMWd1Hlk4
The good thing is that you don't have supermini's here. The 85cc class are mostly KTM's though. They are simply the fastest bikes.
Once you go to EMX125 and you are not on the top 5% of biggest talents, there is a big chance that you need around 30k-60k a year to buy yourself into a team. Most of these guys do this because a team arranges your bikes, hospitality, gear, helmets etc. With help from big sponsors (mostly industrial or construction companies) that believe in you, you can do this combined with Dutch Masters and ADAC races. Some riders opt to go to the French Championship as they have a very solid program as well.
Now, in EMX250 is where it really starts in my opinion. Just watch the results from 5 years ago from EMX125 and watch where some of these top riders are now. In EMX125 you can have some decent results because you have a better bike, but in EMX250 you can really see the difference in talent.
I have seen some ex-GP riders getting top 5 qualifying times and results on a stock KTM. (I.e. Kevin Wouts) in the EMX250 class. The problem is however, that guys like him need that extra 2-3 seconds to get decent results in the GP's. And that is the biggest step some of them can't make unfortunately. However, if you have the talent and you're in the right age. The possibility is there that a factory team picks you up. The turnout on these EMX races is huge, as most riders choose to ride a select few of them that are in the right distance. So let's say you are a Dutch rider and you dont want all these travel expenses, I would choose GB, Italy, France, Germany and Belgium. This is a pretty decent thing for a privateer effort. It is expensive yes, but better then paying 60-100k a year to get into a team (250 rides are more expensive).
Herlings for example had Suzuki support in his 65,85cc days along with big national/regional sponsors withing the industry. Coldenhoff had the same, but he had a rough few years to get used to the speed of GP's (there was no EMX back then during the GP weekends) and really is where he is right now due to the support of personal sponsors and investments from his family that paid for him to keep him in the GP's.
Pit Row
2. Limiting seat time is a bad idea. My kids are grown, but when we went to a weekend race, running more than 2 classes was pretty common. You already have made the commitment in time and money to be there, so you might as well make it worthwhile. Why take time off, travel 500 miles, pay for lodging, food etc to pretty much sit around all day to get a couple of 10 minute motos in.
Holy shit . . . I'm flamgasted at the dollar amounts thrown out in this thread. Fugging insane. So glad I grew up racing an XR75 around tires in a dirt lot just for fun. 40 years later and it's still just as fun.
So in actual $ paid directly to the players the amount is minimal. The amount invested in these players is huge.
My stepson trained with former MSU point guard Travis Walton at MSU, he also trained many MSU players at that time. I got to know some of them and Travis would tell us about his college days. These universities take VERY good care of their top players. They get huge amounts of swag, spending money, local businessmen take pretty good care of these guys, give them token jobs and lots of other perks. They have travelling tutors, custom suits that they wear to away games. They are treated like royalty.
There was a movement to actually pay college players because they make these universities so much money. Have not heard much about this lately.
The reason they go to these schools is to play in the pro ranks somewhere. Because of the NCAA one year rule they have to attend college for at least one year. When the NCAA finally changes the rules it looks like they will let high schoolers go directly to the NBA or to an NCAA university for two years minimum.
The only difference between this and Amateur racing is the NCAA controls what colleges can and can't do. They also set the rules for the games and everyone has to play by the same rules.
Full series coupled with the "amatuer" classes
We need to push these families to STOP chasing amateur titles - the reason to stay is practically zero yet they do.
Personally I believe the payouts should start in 125 schoolboy.
If you think about it - our sport HAD that in the older days with local racing. You went pro at 15 on 125s and chased local and regional money - then when the closest outdoor or sx came around you went and tested your skills there.
I mean the california local racing scene used to be INSANE - didn't they have payouts down in 85cc?
the issue is local racing dropped off entirely - so we now need to replace that with an official series....
Also why have supermini class if no MFG makes one? Again just for promoter money....haven't heard one parent that likes the class, stupid mini most call them...
We made the claiming rule easier to take advantage of in the AMA rulebook last year with zero pushback from the factories. I promise you all of the factories would love to slash the price of competing, but it only takes one guy to spend the big bucks and all of the others are forced to follow to be competitive.
The rule in the book already says,1.3 times retail and 1.5 times retail for a Supermini so the mechanism is already there.
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