MX Sports & Electric Motorcycles

Johnny Depp
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3/30/2018 7:01am
This board is famous for complaining about how the AMA handled the four strokes and how they were too quick to let them in the same...
This board is famous for complaining about how the AMA handled the four strokes and how they were too quick to let them in the same classes as 125s and 250s, yet now we're bitching that taking time to make sure the same thing doesn't happen with electric bikes means MX Sports is killing the sport? ok.
It wasn't that it was too quick, there was always a 1 year prototype rule. The problem was they had their finger on the scale from the beginning, and all of these years later ignore any attempts to change it.

The Golden rule, He who has the Gold makes the rules.
Ted722
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3/30/2018 7:42am
There is some irony with Harley's investment in Alta. Looking forward to hearing DC's take in Racerhead later today.
Johnny Depp
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3/30/2018 10:29am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 10:30am
I just read the comments over at RacerX (I don't visit there much) and it is about 95% against DC and MX Sport's and the OEM's. They are getting rotten tomatoes thrown at them.

It is not fair to lump the AMA in since they had already approved them for amateur use, although DC is using them as a crutch.

It will be interesting to see just how many will speak with their wallets in the next buying cycle and choose Alta's and what that will do to the OEM's sales #'s? Would it be worse to let them race and win, or to piss off the MX community due to the "unfairness" of this issue? At what point do people stop spending money with companies that flip them off?
Tbteam
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3/30/2018 10:38am
Run them in their own class. It will be just like the identically prepared cars in NASCAR.

The Shop

motomike137
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Fenton, MI US
3/30/2018 11:59am
Tbteam wrote:
Run them in their own class. It will be just like the identically prepared cars in NASCAR.
I take it your not a fan but I think your analogy is a little oversimplified. Still lots of room for suspension adjustment and eventually people will be experimenting with power delivery.
3/30/2018 12:08pm
KX500 in open class? Sure, no problem.

ALTA in open class? Let's not start a voltage war the way we did with displacements. It would be dumb to test it against competition in real world scenarios to determine it's true potential and place it accordingly without detrimentally affecting the professional classes within the sport.
3/30/2018 12:10pm
My knee jerk reaction was to get upset at the OEMs and MX Sports over this, but I'll wait until DC chimes in. It sucks to have progress held back, but I'd like to think there's more to this than greed.
3/30/2018 12:22pm
One-Hander wrote:
The conspiracy nut in me says MX Sports has less to do with making that ruling than the OEM's do. Imagine a battery powered bike beating...
The conspiracy nut in me says MX Sports has less to do with making that ruling than the OEM's do.

Imagine a battery powered bike beating your mighty CRF450? And it doesn't even need to be shimmed at XX hours? I wouldn't stand for it and it might make me so unhappy I might even decide to remove my sponsorship monies.
I think new battery’s to keep the bike at 100% will cost more than a few shims. Not clued up on battery tech, but do they not deteriorate from the first charge cycle onwards?
3/30/2018 12:33pm
What happens when KTM stops making their 50cc bikes and replaces them with mini e-bikes. I think this is happening this year or next where TKM will no longer make the 50cc bikes. Are they going to wait for a few years before allowing them to race at Loretta's? I'm guessing the mini e-bikes will get in their right away since it's a KTM and not an Alta...

This is a lame ruling on MX Sports part, they should be allowed in open and age classes. That is where you'll see if the are competitive or not. Creating an e-bike only class will limit them since they are not widely available and there are not enough people with them to justify yet another class. If they did add an e-bike class does that mean you expect them to drop that gate separately from the ICE classes? If not, then there is no reason for a specific class. They combine other classes right now if they are smaller. Maybe not at Loretta's, but you're average race.
avidchimp
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3/30/2018 12:48pm
KX500 in open class? Sure, no problem. ALTA in open class? Let's not start a voltage war the way we did with displacements. It would be...
KX500 in open class? Sure, no problem.

ALTA in open class? Let's not start a voltage war the way we did with displacements. It would be dumb to test it against competition in real world scenarios to determine it's true potential and place it accordingly without detrimentally affecting the professional classes within the sport.
^^^ He's not wrong.

Not allowing an Alta into a run what you brung (even if it's a 500cc two stroke in a current model CR450 frame) Vet class is just outright mind-blowing, and very much stinks of OEM involvement.
DC
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3/30/2018 1:01pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 1:05pm
This decision is based on one racing event, the 2018 AMA Amateur National Motocross Championships. We don't have enough data or experience or understanding of what the Alta or any other eBike is capable of right not, let alone in the future. They can race in the Open classes at any other amateur race except this year's NATIONAL championship. Let's get the data and results locally, not at the pinnacle event of the sport. Then we can make educated decisions, not guesses. It's not going to change the amount of entries at Loretta Lynn's, we just need to get the class designation right because it will have major consequences moving forward. (And there aren't enough for an "eBike" class at Loretta Lynn's this year.)

Also, Alta is an OEM, so they are in on the conversations. We have been talking with them just like the AMA has, and just like we are with other OEMs. (And Johnny Deep, I don't use anyone for a crutch -- the AMA's opinion is the same on the Amateur National as MX Sports is.)

This is the bottom line: No one wants to make the same mistake in 2018 as was made in 1996. Let's take a little more time to get this right.

Which one of you have actually ridden an Alta on a motocross track at length? What is your opinion?

Check out Racerhead for a little more later.

DC
Racer X
Zoom
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3/30/2018 1:24pm
DC wrote:
This decision is based on one racing event, the 2018 AMA Amateur National Motocross Championships. We don't have enough data or experience or understanding of what...
This decision is based on one racing event, the 2018 AMA Amateur National Motocross Championships. We don't have enough data or experience or understanding of what the Alta or any other eBike is capable of right not, let alone in the future. They can race in the Open classes at any other amateur race except this year's NATIONAL championship. Let's get the data and results locally, not at the pinnacle event of the sport. Then we can make educated decisions, not guesses. It's not going to change the amount of entries at Loretta Lynn's, we just need to get the class designation right because it will have major consequences moving forward. (And there aren't enough for an "eBike" class at Loretta Lynn's this year.)

Also, Alta is an OEM, so they are in on the conversations. We have been talking with them just like the AMA has, and just like we are with other OEMs. (And Johnny Deep, I don't use anyone for a crutch -- the AMA's opinion is the same on the Amateur National as MX Sports is.)

This is the bottom line: No one wants to make the same mistake in 2018 as was made in 1996. Let's take a little more time to get this right.

Which one of you have actually ridden an Alta on a motocross track at length? What is your opinion?

Check out Racerhead for a little more later.

DC
Racer X
Thank you Davey, well said!

Larry Hughes
msp332
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3/30/2018 1:34pm
DC wrote:
This decision is based on one racing event, the 2018 AMA Amateur National Motocross Championships. We don't have enough data or experience or understanding of what...
This decision is based on one racing event, the 2018 AMA Amateur National Motocross Championships. We don't have enough data or experience or understanding of what the Alta or any other eBike is capable of right not, let alone in the future. They can race in the Open classes at any other amateur race except this year's NATIONAL championship. Let's get the data and results locally, not at the pinnacle event of the sport. Then we can make educated decisions, not guesses. It's not going to change the amount of entries at Loretta Lynn's, we just need to get the class designation right because it will have major consequences moving forward. (And there aren't enough for an "eBike" class at Loretta Lynn's this year.)

Also, Alta is an OEM, so they are in on the conversations. We have been talking with them just like the AMA has, and just like we are with other OEMs. (And Johnny Deep, I don't use anyone for a crutch -- the AMA's opinion is the same on the Amateur National as MX Sports is.)

This is the bottom line: No one wants to make the same mistake in 2018 as was made in 1996. Let's take a little more time to get this right.

Which one of you have actually ridden an Alta on a motocross track at length? What is your opinion?

Check out Racerhead for a little more later.

DC
Racer X
That would be an excellent decision in 2008. In 2009, the technology was proven in a 24-hour motocross race. The track where that race was held is now closed. How many more riding areas are we going to lose before electric-powered motorcycles can compete?

Will they be allowed in 2019?
kage173
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3/30/2018 1:34pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 1:34pm
I don't own an Alta.

I'm not good enough to get to LL.

I can't afford to do either anyway.

Instead of being mad, I'm going to go ride my 2012 2 Stroke KTM at an open practice and thank God for Motocross.
Johnny Depp
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3/30/2018 1:35pm
DC-" the AMA's opinion is the same on the Amateur National as MX Sports is.)

"3. Electric Motorcycles
a. Electric Motorcycle is a two-wheeled vehicle
powered and propelled solely by stored electricity
(battery/accumulator), without the use of petroleum
based fuels. Racing eligibility will be determined
through supplemental rules."

Anywhere besides LL Nationals they are OK, not that there is anything else that matters. Until yesterday, I believe they were OK to use at anything except the finals, at least that was the common perception around here. LL Nationals probably account for more AMA memberships than any other MX related events, and LL gets to make their own supplemental rules, so there is that.

DC
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3/30/2018 1:41pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 1:55pm
msp332 wrote, That would be an excellent decision in 2008. In 2009, the technology was proven in a 24-hour motocross race. The track where that race was held is now closed. How many more riding areas are we going to lose before electric-powered motorcycles can compete?

Loretta Lynn's is not a local 24-hour endurance race, and I have no idea what you're talking about or how that relates to a supplemental rules decision for the 2018 AMA Amateur National.

But I agree on the sound issue and can't wait for more eBikes to come along, and also ride this Alta even more.

I noticed you are from San Mateo, CA. Have you gotten to ride the Alta much?

DC
Racer X
lestat
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3/30/2018 2:03pm
The best research would be to let them race in the open classes this year . Eventually they will have to be placed in limited classes with ice bikes . You need a test case .
DC
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3/30/2018 2:20pm
lestat, we are going to have a lot of test cases, just not at the actual national this year.

DC
Racer X
3/30/2018 2:30pm
DC wrote:
lestat, we are going to have a lot of test cases, just not at the actual national this year.

DC
Racer X
I think you are doing it right DC.

And how many guys would be pissed if they were allowed to race an alta this year only to be told next year that they couldn't because rules were changed and the data found disqualified the bikes from being allowed at LL? Not to say that's what would happen, but it is a possibility(even if only a small possibility)
R.EX
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CA
3/30/2018 2:39pm
DC wrote:
This decision is based on one racing event, the 2018 AMA Amateur National Motocross Championships. We don't have enough data or experience or understanding of what...
This decision is based on one racing event, the 2018 AMA Amateur National Motocross Championships. We don't have enough data or experience or understanding of what the Alta or any other eBike is capable of right not, let alone in the future. They can race in the Open classes at any other amateur race except this year's NATIONAL championship. Let's get the data and results locally, not at the pinnacle event of the sport. Then we can make educated decisions, not guesses. It's not going to change the amount of entries at Loretta Lynn's, we just need to get the class designation right because it will have major consequences moving forward. (And there aren't enough for an "eBike" class at Loretta Lynn's this year.)

Also, Alta is an OEM, so they are in on the conversations. We have been talking with them just like the AMA has, and just like we are with other OEMs. (And Johnny Deep, I don't use anyone for a crutch -- the AMA's opinion is the same on the Amateur National as MX Sports is.)

This is the bottom line: No one wants to make the same mistake in 2018 as was made in 1996. Let's take a little more time to get this right.

Which one of you have actually ridden an Alta on a motocross track at length? What is your opinion?

Check out Racerhead for a little more later.

DC
Racer X
I have about 12 hours on the Alta so far, exclusively motocross riding.

I get where are coming from as far as any cc equivalency is concerned, but there is no legitimate reason to not allow the Alta into open classes.
3/30/2018 2:46pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 2:46pm
On second thought, GOOD! The Vet class at Loretta's would lose all it's prestigious worldwide credibility if this roughly 250cc equivelant atrocity raced against 250f's and 450f's and ruined the sport forever; again.

We've seen Josh Hill go against factory 250f's at Straight Rhythm. To think it's faster than a 450 would make Stevie Wonder blush.
Alex.434
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3/30/2018 3:06pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 3:11pm
World Superbike you have V-Twins, V4's and I-4's all with different displacements, all racing at the same time, all from different OEMs.

Bit silly this is even an issue for the "Open" class.

I've been riding Alta's for over a year. Probably 40+ hours across both the MX and MX-R and EX and Supermoto. 250F class IMO all day long.

250F v. 250 2st v. Alta - Yeehaw let's go.
msp332
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3/30/2018 3:41pm
DC wrote:
msp332 wrote, That would be an excellent decision in 2008. In 2009, the technology was proven in a 24-hour motocross race. The track where that race...
msp332 wrote, That would be an excellent decision in 2008. In 2009, the technology was proven in a 24-hour motocross race. The track where that race was held is now closed. How many more riding areas are we going to lose before electric-powered motorcycles can compete?

Loretta Lynn's is not a local 24-hour endurance race, and I have no idea what you're talking about or how that relates to a supplemental rules decision for the 2018 AMA Amateur National.

But I agree on the sound issue and can't wait for more eBikes to come along, and also ride this Alta even more.

I noticed you are from San Mateo, CA. Have you gotten to ride the Alta much?

DC
Racer X
DC, thank you for the response. The point of my rant was to say that I appreciate the process that must happen to enable fair racing, but this is years too late. The technology is not new. Can MX Sports at least commit to allowing electric-powered motorcycles to compete in some form at Loretta Lynn’s in 2019?

To answer your question, I have not ridden it yet. Alta has given demos around here and I will absolutely ride it soon- I even saw one at Hollister at the Yamaha demo last Sunday and now I’m not sure if my next bike will be a Yamaha or an Alta!

Keep up the good work, at an accelerated pace please. The sooner electric-powered motorcycles compete at Loretta Lynn’s and AMA professional races, the sooner they will get new people into this sport.
731chopper
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3/30/2018 3:52pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I think you are doing it right DC. And how many guys would be pissed if they were allowed to race an alta this year only...
I think you are doing it right DC.

And how many guys would be pissed if they were allowed to race an alta this year only to be told next year that they couldn't because rules were changed and the data found disqualified the bikes from being allowed at LL? Not to say that's what would happen, but it is a possibility(even if only a small possibility)
I agree, DC is doing it right.
peltier626
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3/30/2018 3:59pm
What exactly defines an open class according to the AMA?
Brad460
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Fantasy
3/30/2018 4:24pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 4:28pm
msp332 wrote:
DC, thank you for the response. The point of my rant was to say that I appreciate the process that must happen to enable fair racing...
DC, thank you for the response. The point of my rant was to say that I appreciate the process that must happen to enable fair racing, but this is years too late. The technology is not new. Can MX Sports at least commit to allowing electric-powered motorcycles to compete in some form at Loretta Lynn’s in 2019?

To answer your question, I have not ridden it yet. Alta has given demos around here and I will absolutely ride it soon- I even saw one at Hollister at the Yamaha demo last Sunday and now I’m not sure if my next bike will be a Yamaha or an Alta!

Keep up the good work, at an accelerated pace please. The sooner electric-powered motorcycles compete at Loretta Lynn’s and AMA professional races, the sooner they will get new people into this sport.
Agree...Pretending electric bikes are some “new” technology is ridiculous. I think this all comes down to the current manufacturers of ICE bikes being afraid to be beat by an electric bike at a “national” event.

Having worked for one of the current mx manufacturers and been involved in racing rules and decisions (in another motorsports product line) I can assure you it’s highly likely one or all of the current ICE bike manufacturers are calling the shots here..If that’s the case it’s a shame non- USA companies are calling the shots in a USA racing series over an American made product..

Regardless, how many times are we told it’s 90% (or whatever) the rider and not the bike.

Johnny Depp
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3/30/2018 5:32pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 5:46pm
Racerhead is up and DC expands his thoughts on the subject:

http://racerxonline.com/2018/03/30/racerhead-13

If we have a 20 year history of data on 2t vs 4t, why isn't that being included at the same time if we are going to re-visit displacement rules? How simple would legal 300 2t's against 450 4t's be? And 150's against 250 4t's. It might not be enough, but do something.

Japan and Austria Inc. are buying time. In the meantime, we can buy an Alta, just not see it race against the best. Except for the MEC, unless they cock block it there too.

The problem lies in trying to fit everything into a rule book. The Electric part is getting top billing, but honestly they are making track time with less HP by using no clutch and an automatic. That is equally if not more status quo changing. When you have people beating top IC product and talent (like at Straight Rhythm) the genie is already out of the bottle again. If Alta is out to build the fastest bike, and succeed in doing so, no rule is going to stop that, or anyone that comes after them with the newest widget.
bents
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Fantasy
3/30/2018 8:36pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2018 8:37pm
I agree with the way all the powers that be are being cautious and thorough in their assessment of where the Alta fits, especially after the way they missed on the 2 vs 4 stroke. Some people are of the opinion that E-bikes should stay in their own lane as a stand alone class, and this is what I believe as well. I think it is time to really look at where we are, and even right a wrong that happened with the displacement ruling back in the late nineties. I would like to see:

-a stand alone Ebike classs both at the amateur level(Loretta's) and the pro level
-a 125 2 stroke developmental class (at the pro level) with an age limit, and perhaps even mandating that 1 or 2 years must be spent in this class prior to moving on (14-16 years old). Say an east/west series both indoor and out. Its not like these bikes tear up the track, especially indoors. Two-4 lap heats, and 1 eight lap main indoors. Two 20 minute motos outdoors.
-a 250 class, 2 stroke or 4 (east/west indoors and the full monty outdoors)
-an open class, have at it-Ebike wicked up, 500 two strokes, 450 4 strokes-whatever. No homologation rule. Let creativity reign!

I know it is crazy pie in the sky thinking, but now would be a good time to really examine how we can breathe new life into our sport, and 125's I believe still play a critical role in our survival. Bigger tent.

Local racing, let the Alta go into age class and open.
3/30/2018 10:28pm
I really don't get the protectionism of the status quo, when MX has always been about development. Disc brakes, water cooling, single shocks, the resurgence of...
I really don't get the protectionism of the status quo, when MX has always been about development. Disc brakes, water cooling, single shocks, the resurgence of 4 strokes all caused a monumental shift in the status quo. Nobody cried fowl back then, and lots of European manufacturers are gone because they couldn't keep up with the Japanese technology space race. Now the tables get turned and Alta builds an American Built race bike that they won't let race? Really embracing the future there?Unsure

DC will give us his usual blah blah. The Alta's began production in August of 2016 and Alta had a bike at the AMA headquarters sometime last year. Settle it on the race track.
Hard to argue against any of this.

They've had plenty of time to test the bike. And it has been used at AMA sanctioned amateur events so it's not really an "unknown" technology. It's been around for a few years now.

This reeks of OEM politics. It is what it is.
3/30/2018 10:34pm
slowgti wrote:
I think MXsoorts is trying to avoid the 'YZ400F' problem again. I'm completely fine with them taking some time to figure it out.
The OEM's would repeat history again if they could.

It's just that this time it's not one of the big 5 who have the upper hand.

Let's not get crazy and start thinking that sanctioning bodies run the show or that OEM's care about learning from past mistakes. Just follow the money.

They're doing what makes business sense. The major mfg's have invested heavily into MX racing. Alta has not. Alta has to go thru the rough period like KTM did before they will be in equal footing, and it has nothing to do with technology or R&D.

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