Forum QNA: 2018 Vital MX 250 Shootout

BobPA wrote:

Shall we make a wager that the Honda changes some shock valving next year and it catapulted right to the top??

ML512 wrote:

In all seriousness I can see it giving the KTM a run for its money if they get a bit more power. Chassis and suspension is...

In all seriousness I can see it giving the KTM a run for its money if they get a bit more power. Chassis and suspension is great.

BobPA wrote:

I am surprised they did not follow the Yamaha design for the small bore bikes. I think that will be the way of the future for...

I am surprised they did not follow the Yamaha design for the small bore bikes. I think that will be the way of the future for 250f's. Yamaha has done almost nothing to their engines for years and are still near the top of the charts.

gsxr6 wrote:

It's funny because the rcv has two exhuast outlets lol

Bruce372 wrote:

So if you drill two small holes in the husky side panel, does it come second?

ML512 wrote:

In all seriousness I can see it giving the KTM a run for its money if they get a bit more power. Chassis and suspension is...

In all seriousness I can see it giving the KTM a run for its money if they get a bit more power. Chassis and suspension is great.

BobPA wrote:

I am surprised they did not follow the Yamaha design for the small bore bikes. I think that will be the way of the future for...

I am surprised they did not follow the Yamaha design for the small bore bikes. I think that will be the way of the future for 250f's. Yamaha has done almost nothing to their engines for years and are still near the top of the charts.

Derek Harris wrote:

The yamaha's magic is defined by its power at 1/8th throttle through 1/2 throttle at 3000rpm to 9000. It wouldn't win any road races nor any...

The yamaha's magic is defined by its power at 1/8th throttle through 1/2 throttle at 3000rpm to 9000.

It wouldn't win any road races nor any kart races where real hp shows it's effect.

The shim and bucket design imho had its day, but the finger follower system is superior and will find its way into all the bikes eventually.

I think the crf will drastically improve in low end power with a good piston, some pipe R&D to solve the two header massive flow area and decreased wave strength/Scavenging effect due to that.
Honda also usually leaves some on the table with tuning their first year, a GET will likely go a long way.

I'm still surprised the weight of the crf isn't noticed...to me weight is important! Same tire technology available on all the bikes... lighter one is going to stop quicker, turn sharper or faster for set traction level and accelerate quicker for a given hp. Obviously 10lbs isn't earth shattering when your boots, helmet, riding gear and extra lbs are at least 10lbs but on principle it's interesting the 10lbs can't be felt

Derek Harris wrote:

If the head is anything like the 450 head, there won't be much to find. Cams will take up massive time for us... the Honda 450...

If the head is anything like the 450 head, there won't be much to find.

Cams will take up massive time for us... the Honda 450 head has amazing frame work and all you need to play with is port size for the cam and application it's used with.
The 250 appears a dead clone scaled down to me... so likely similar.


I'll have one on the dyno as soon as it shows up from Altus hopefully see if the low end has easy fixes..

Derek Harris wrote:

If the head is anything like the 450 head, there won't be much to find. Cams will take up massive time for us... the Honda 450...

If the head is anything like the 450 head, there won't be much to find.

Cams will take up massive time for us... the Honda 450 head has amazing frame work and all you need to play with is port size for the cam and application it's used with.
The 250 appears a dead clone scaled down to me... so likely similar.


I'll have one on the dyno as soon as it shows up from Altus hopefully see if the low end has easy fixes..

Jrewing wrote:

My complete guess is the low-mid fixes will be found and this bike will be the privateers go to bike. On another note, do you think...

My complete guess is the low-mid fixes will be found and this bike will be the privateers go to bike.

On another note, do you think there'll be a power war eventually in the 450's like whats starting to happen in the 250's?

PRM31 wrote:

The notion that a 250F rider is having to 'work' to keep it in the power gave me a chuckle. The CRF may be a little...

The notion that a 250F rider is having to 'work' to keep it in the power gave me a chuckle. The CRF may be a little short on the low end, but I'll bet it's a lot broader than a race prepped 125. I probably shift more in one or two straights on my RM144 than a guy 'working hard' with his new CRF does in a lap. It's all relative. I'm thinking the CRF may be fun to ride!

I also read comments on how one bike has x amount of peak HP and how that's better or lacking. Then watch the video, or simply watch at the track and see how many people are actually riding new bikes wide open AND within a 1000rpm or so of redline or at least at or above the peak torque. Anything less and you are not making (or using) peak HP. Is peak HP really a meaningful number to most riders?

This got me to thinking, when I read the newer tests, there seems to be more emphasis on making riding easier. Having electric start seems to carry as much weight as most other aspects. Shifting is almost treated like a burden. In most reviews I hear comments about how they had to shift at a particular portion of the track. That struck me as odd. I don't think anyone would have thought about that many moons ago. Not a criticism, just an observation on how perspectives have changed.

ML512 wrote:

Hello all! This year we really wanted to open up our eyes and ears by taking on your questions about Vital MX's 2018 250 Shootout. Pretty...

Hello all! This year we really wanted to open up our eyes and ears by taking on your questions about Vital MX's 2018 250 Shootout. Pretty simple in here, if you have a question about the test itself, fire away. If you have a question to a specific test rider about their opinions, I'm here of course (Michael Lindsay) but I'm in Italy all week so excuse me if my responses are lagged or at weird hours. Shelby Paget and Joe Carlino are regulars on the forum as well, while the other testers (Matix Soto, Chris Hay, Zach Peddie, and Kusti Malloninen) they're but a text away for me. I can forward on those questions and see if I can wrangle up an answer.

Btw, here's the link to the article, in case you haven't seen it: http://www.vitalmx.com/features/2018-Vital-MX-250-Shootout,5636

Lastly, we're curious what you, the reader, think of the actual Shootout. Too long, just right, too short (I doubt that, ha)...and what the context in which we cover it. We appreciate any feedback you might have.

pmshortt2 wrote:

Hey ML, great review, what do you think would be the best 2 choice of bikes for a guy that’s 6”3 and about 180lbs? I’m 21...

Hey ML, great review, what do you think would be the best 2 choice of bikes for a guy that’s 6”3 and about 180lbs? I’m 21 and currently ride a 97 YZ125 but am not ready for a 450, I want to be able to ride the crap out of a 250 before then lol. From what I read the Yamaha seems to be better for a taller/bigger guy. What do you think? I’m buying a new bike (250 4 stroke) in June so

PRM31 wrote:

The notion that a 250F rider is having to 'work' to keep it in the power gave me a chuckle. The CRF may be a little...

The notion that a 250F rider is having to 'work' to keep it in the power gave me a chuckle. The CRF may be a little short on the low end, but I'll bet it's a lot broader than a race prepped 125. I probably shift more in one or two straights on my RM144 than a guy 'working hard' with his new CRF does in a lap. It's all relative. I'm thinking the CRF may be fun to ride!

I also read comments on how one bike has x amount of peak HP and how that's better or lacking. Then watch the video, or simply watch at the track and see how many people are actually riding new bikes wide open AND within a 1000rpm or so of redline or at least at or above the peak torque. Anything less and you are not making (or using) peak HP. Is peak HP really a meaningful number to most riders?

This got me to thinking, when I read the newer tests, there seems to be more emphasis on making riding easier. Having electric start seems to carry as much weight as most other aspects. Shifting is almost treated like a burden. In most reviews I hear comments about how they had to shift at a particular portion of the track. That struck me as odd. I don't think anyone would have thought about that many moons ago. Not a criticism, just an observation on how perspectives have changed.

ML512 wrote:

Hello all! This year we really wanted to open up our eyes and ears by taking on your questions about Vital MX's 2018 250 Shootout. Pretty...

Hello all! This year we really wanted to open up our eyes and ears by taking on your questions about Vital MX's 2018 250 Shootout. Pretty simple in here, if you have a question about the test itself, fire away. If you have a question to a specific test rider about their opinions, I'm here of course (Michael Lindsay) but I'm in Italy all week so excuse me if my responses are lagged or at weird hours. Shelby Paget and Joe Carlino are regulars on the forum as well, while the other testers (Matix Soto, Chris Hay, Zach Peddie, and Kusti Malloninen) they're but a text away for me. I can forward on those questions and see if I can wrangle up an answer.

Btw, here's the link to the article, in case you haven't seen it: http://www.vitalmx.com/features/2018-Vital-MX-250-Shootout,5636

Lastly, we're curious what you, the reader, think of the actual Shootout. Too long, just right, too short (I doubt that, ha)...and what the context in which we cover it. We appreciate any feedback you might have.

tprice07 wrote:

Should throw in the Alta next year and see how it stacks up.

CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:

A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but...

A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but the bikes chassis is designed with that in mind they said. Going 2 into 1 would change the chassis feel of the bike as well.
But sounds like we can expect some nice bottom end gains from the Yosh full system.

BobPA wrote:

I am betting that none of us on here would even feel the different chassis characteristics of a different exhaust,

mnomis97 wrote:

Well, I rode kawis for the last 3 years, and i always liked the feel of the kawi. It is a bike that is very easy...

Well, I rode kawis for the last 3 years, and i always liked the feel of the kawi. It is a bike that is very easy to throw around, in the air as well as into corners (since the new chassis) and still feels very stable. I already put 110 hours on my 17 kx250f, and i was going to buy a kawi again (18 kx250f), but it seems like everyone around here is on ktms, and seeing that it wins most shootouts and has quite a bit more hp, i was thinking about buying a sxf.
So i was wondering if anyone could give me a small, direct comparison between those two bikes? Like what one does better than the other and vice versa?
I read through the whole shootout (great work @ML by the way), but i couldnt really find the specific answers i am looking for.
Thanks in advance

Edit: ML, where in italy are you going to go? Doing some riding?

ML512 wrote:

The KTM won't have the responsive feel that the Kawasaki has but really it really is so much stronger after things get moving. The Kawasaki does...

The KTM won't have the responsive feel that the Kawasaki has but really it really is so much stronger after things get moving. The Kawasaki does feel exciting as it has the snap off the bottom and seems to hit again in the middle, so it feels punchy...the KTM will build steam up a bit more before becoming uncorked in the mid-range and pulls through the top where the Kawasaki falls flat and won't drive forward.

The Kawasaki is a smaller feeling bike, easy to get off the back of...the KTM is a little tall in comparison, but still comfy in the saddle for a smaller rider. But you will feel like you're a bit higher up off the ground.

The KTM's stock suspension is much more active feeling than what the Kawasaki has, which is more dead and planted at times...but can also beat the crap out of you in repeated chop. The KTM handles repeated hits much more consistently.

Brakes on the Kawasaki are pretty strong since they went to the 270mm front rotor, but they're kind of grabby...the KTM has a longer front brake lever pull but is so much more progressive and usable.

I can take or leave hydraulic clutches, cable clutches have a bit more feel in my opinion.

Anything more direct you'd like to know about?

I'm here for the EICMA show, the world's largest motorcycle expo.

mnomis97 wrote:

Well, I rode kawis for the last 3 years, and i always liked the feel of the kawi. It is a bike that is very easy...

Well, I rode kawis for the last 3 years, and i always liked the feel of the kawi. It is a bike that is very easy to throw around, in the air as well as into corners (since the new chassis) and still feels very stable. I already put 110 hours on my 17 kx250f, and i was going to buy a kawi again (18 kx250f), but it seems like everyone around here is on ktms, and seeing that it wins most shootouts and has quite a bit more hp, i was thinking about buying a sxf.
So i was wondering if anyone could give me a small, direct comparison between those two bikes? Like what one does better than the other and vice versa?
I read through the whole shootout (great work @ML by the way), but i couldnt really find the specific answers i am looking for.
Thanks in advance

Edit: ML, where in italy are you going to go? Doing some riding?

ML512 wrote:

The KTM won't have the responsive feel that the Kawasaki has but really it really is so much stronger after things get moving. The Kawasaki does...

The KTM won't have the responsive feel that the Kawasaki has but really it really is so much stronger after things get moving. The Kawasaki does feel exciting as it has the snap off the bottom and seems to hit again in the middle, so it feels punchy...the KTM will build steam up a bit more before becoming uncorked in the mid-range and pulls through the top where the Kawasaki falls flat and won't drive forward.

The Kawasaki is a smaller feeling bike, easy to get off the back of...the KTM is a little tall in comparison, but still comfy in the saddle for a smaller rider. But you will feel like you're a bit higher up off the ground.

The KTM's stock suspension is much more active feeling than what the Kawasaki has, which is more dead and planted at times...but can also beat the crap out of you in repeated chop. The KTM handles repeated hits much more consistently.

Brakes on the Kawasaki are pretty strong since they went to the 270mm front rotor, but they're kind of grabby...the KTM has a longer front brake lever pull but is so much more progressive and usable.

I can take or leave hydraulic clutches, cable clutches have a bit more feel in my opinion.

Anything more direct you'd like to know about?

I'm here for the EICMA show, the world's largest motorcycle expo.

mnomis97 wrote:

Thanks, that was perfect B) One more question: is it worth buying a 2018 250sxf over a leftover 16? Are the small refinements worth the extra...

Thanks, that was perfect

One more question: is it worth buying a 2018 250sxf over a leftover 16? Are the small refinements worth the extra $?
(In europe the 2016 already had airforks)

mnomis97 wrote:

Around 1500 $

mnomis97 wrote:

Well, I rode kawis for the last 3 years, and i always liked the feel of the kawi. It is a bike that is very easy...

Well, I rode kawis for the last 3 years, and i always liked the feel of the kawi. It is a bike that is very easy to throw around, in the air as well as into corners (since the new chassis) and still feels very stable. I already put 110 hours on my 17 kx250f, and i was going to buy a kawi again (18 kx250f), but it seems like everyone around here is on ktms, and seeing that it wins most shootouts and has quite a bit more hp, i was thinking about buying a sxf.
So i was wondering if anyone could give me a small, direct comparison between those two bikes? Like what one does better than the other and vice versa?
I read through the whole shootout (great work @ML by the way), but i couldnt really find the specific answers i am looking for.
Thanks in advance

Edit: ML, where in italy are you going to go? Doing some riding?

ML512 wrote:

The KTM won't have the responsive feel that the Kawasaki has but really it really is so much stronger after things get moving. The Kawasaki does...

The KTM won't have the responsive feel that the Kawasaki has but really it really is so much stronger after things get moving. The Kawasaki does feel exciting as it has the snap off the bottom and seems to hit again in the middle, so it feels punchy...the KTM will build steam up a bit more before becoming uncorked in the mid-range and pulls through the top where the Kawasaki falls flat and won't drive forward.

The Kawasaki is a smaller feeling bike, easy to get off the back of...the KTM is a little tall in comparison, but still comfy in the saddle for a smaller rider. But you will feel like you're a bit higher up off the ground.

The KTM's stock suspension is much more active feeling than what the Kawasaki has, which is more dead and planted at times...but can also beat the crap out of you in repeated chop. The KTM handles repeated hits much more consistently.

Brakes on the Kawasaki are pretty strong since they went to the 270mm front rotor, but they're kind of grabby...the KTM has a longer front brake lever pull but is so much more progressive and usable.

I can take or leave hydraulic clutches, cable clutches have a bit more feel in my opinion.

Anything more direct you'd like to know about?

I'm here for the EICMA show, the world's largest motorcycle expo.

mnomis97 wrote:

Thanks, that was perfect B) One more question: is it worth buying a 2018 250sxf over a leftover 16? Are the small refinements worth the extra...

Thanks, that was perfect

One more question: is it worth buying a 2018 250sxf over a leftover 16? Are the small refinements worth the extra $?
(In europe the 2016 already had airforks)