AMA considering homologating Alta electric MX motorycle

early
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early 5/5/2017 12:25pm
5/5/2017 12:25pm
Poppanator wrote:
Calling it "short sighted" is maybe to put it a bit too gentle. I would call it completely ignorant! They are already practical for many people...
Calling it "short sighted" is maybe to put it a bit too gentle. I would call it completely ignorant! They are already practical for many people and purposes, so it's a false statement right off the bat.

Many European countries are right now pushing plans to ban (selling of new) petrol fueled cars within the next 15-20 years. For infrastructural/societal matters like this, that's short term. Anybody who thinks that petrol fueled vehicles has any future at all, what so ever, needs to rethink. That's at least my prediction.
Comparisons to impending heavy handed European regulations should be kept to a minimum for everyones sanity.
Aceofspades 5/5/2017 12:30pm
5/5/2017 12:30pm
Poppanator wrote:
So what you are saying is that the evolution of battery technology has come to its end? Dude, do you even read?
Not only do I read, I've had training in electronics. Batteries have limitations that aren't going to be waved away with the "science" wand. If they can come up with a 1/1 charge/use ratio battery, that can be cheaply made and will last thousands of charges then I'm all for it.
Aceofspades 5/5/2017 12:31pm
5/5/2017 12:31pm
Bfogg217 wrote:
It's obvious that they're intended market is moto. They don't want to sell it as a play ride bike
As long as ic engines are available I'm fine then.
Poppanator 5/5/2017 12:37pm
5/5/2017 12:37pm
early wrote:
Comparisons to impending heavy handed European regulations should be kept to a minimum for everyones sanity.
All I'm saying is that the trend is already in full motion, like it or not. This is of course forcing the manufacturers to invest in the technology, which of course all car manufacturers already are doing. I would also think that the big MX manufacturers already are on the E-bike ball as well (KTM already has one).

Give it seven to ten years or so and the major MX series are running E-bikes (which in no way means that petrol fueled MX bikes won't exist, but they will not be the future so the manufacturers will not have their development focus there).

The Shop

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2T42
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2T42 5/5/2017 12:43pm
5/5/2017 12:43pm
The people who control the AMA and the rules (Asian manufacturers $) will not want these racing at all. They will stop it by throwing their weight and money around as usual until they decide to sell them.

I like how he said that the AMA didnt want another 4 stroke debacle. LOL. They sure were happy to take the $ from the big 4 when they wanted to push their heavier slower machines into pro racing for profit. They alter the rules to Eliminate (not equalize) any competition that would even come close to beating whatever it is that they make the most money on. They are not interested in what is the best for racers or weekend warriors as in lighter, more budget friendly bikes, just more profit.

I think electric bikes are great. They will progress and they will weigh and perform better than 4 strokes in a few years and possibly even 2 strokes as well after that. Battery tech and electric motors are progressing faster than 4 stroke tech is so the curve will intersect soon. There are lots of factors to consider. Weigh vs HP, torque, cost, run time, ease of use, lifespan...

The wattage is the power so they could rate them that way. It will be very hard to classify them now and as they progress. I agree with Johnny Depp. There needs to be two classes and it should have zero to do with motor size or wattage. It should be done by age or skill level. Race whatever works best for you and your team. They will figure it out and the factory teams with big money will still win no matter what so they shouldnt worry.
731chopper
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731chopper 5/5/2017 12:48pm
5/5/2017 12:48pm
Who in here has an electric motorcycle?

I have an Oset for my son. Cool little bike that I take him to the park to ride but there are still people who take offense to it because it's motorized and technically any motorized vehicle is illegal to ride even on the trails around here. This idea that people will start riding electric dirt bikes and everyone will be welcomed into society is a pipe dream. Cost, risk, dust/erosion, land owner liability, and interest are just some of the larger challenges our favorite hobby has. Europeans need to get a handle on their politicians but that's a different can of worms on its own.
TripleFive 5/5/2017 12:50pm
5/5/2017 12:50pm
TripleFive wrote:
I know it's not here yet, but

CAN WE PLEASE NOT MAKE ELECTRIC BIKES AS FAST AS 450s??????

Stop at the 250f power range.
BobPA wrote:
Why?
Are we ever going to limit the power of these bikes, or not? This is the question that needs to be asked.

If the answer is "no," then get ready, because if increasingly faster bikes continue to be the status quo, the evolution of electric motors is going to rapidly leave our current bikes in the dust.

"Why not aim for the 450 mark?" you ask. Well, knowing what we know now, the logic behind establishing the 450 limit in the first place makes no sense. That limit was arbitrarily set without an awareness of just how much power a 450cc 4-stroke could produce. As a result, we now have bikes that are way faster than the rules ever anticipated.

If there everrrrrrrr was a time to have a conversation about how fast production bikes should be, the time is now, at the precipice of the electric motorcycle revolution.

I'm of the opinion that our sport is better served with bikes that are closer to the speed of 250 2-strokes. I think the professional racing was more entertaining when the speeds were slower, and I believe that the sport of motocross, as a whole, was more safe. Because I feel this way, I very firmly believe that the power of a 450 should not be the benchmark for future electric motorcycles.


early
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early 5/5/2017 12:59pm
5/5/2017 12:59pm
early wrote:
Comparisons to impending heavy handed European regulations should be kept to a minimum for everyones sanity.
Poppanator wrote:
All I'm saying is that the trend is already in full motion, like it or not. This is of course forcing the manufacturers to invest in...
All I'm saying is that the trend is already in full motion, like it or not. This is of course forcing the manufacturers to invest in the technology, which of course all car manufacturers already are doing. I would also think that the big MX manufacturers already are on the E-bike ball as well (KTM already has one).

Give it seven to ten years or so and the major MX series are running E-bikes (which in no way means that petrol fueled MX bikes won't exist, but they will not be the future so the manufacturers will not have their development focus there).
Well thats the thing, is that there is a distinction between a trend and a law or rule. Thats why i am an advocate of integrating all power configurations to the same class structure. I think that if the class structure was "Superstock" (some kind of power limited class that is more fair than the current 250 class) and "Open" then you would be more likely to see a trend towards electric racing when the time is appropriate.

If theres an electric class and an IC class then it would be easier to just eliminate the IC class altogether.
Poppanator 5/5/2017 1:01pm
5/5/2017 1:01pm
Aceofspades wrote:
Not only do I read, I've had training in electronics. Batteries have limitations that aren't going to be waved away with the "science" wand. If they...
Not only do I read, I've had training in electronics. Batteries have limitations that aren't going to be waved away with the "science" wand. If they can come up with a 1/1 charge/use ratio battery, that can be cheaply made and will last thousands of charges then I'm all for it.
Hehe, interesting that you quoted science and not "wand". Wink

I think we might have different time perspectives here. In my world 10 years is short term when it comes to technical evolution/revolution like this. So in 10-15 years time the chance lithium-ion batteries are replaced is highly likely (lithium-air sounds cool). The fact that lithium-ion batteries for cars and mcs already today are sufficient enough for everyday purposes for most people, tells me that the transition from petrol fueled vehicles to electrical ones is inevitable. In 25-30 years time petrol cars will probably not even be manufactured at all anymore.
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 5/5/2017 3:35pm
5/5/2017 3:35pm
How many tracks have 220V RV hookups? On site charging would be one answer, although I can't remember the last time I emptied one tank of gas in a day on an MX track, let alone 2 which is the expected range for MX use.

Cycle World article with Grant Langston spinning some laps:

http://www.cycleworld.com/alta-motors-redshift-mx-grant-langston-riding…

Husky360
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Husky360 5/5/2017 11:24pm
5/5/2017 11:24pm Edited Date/Time 5/5/2017 11:35pm
zookie wrote:
Can't agree more! Noise is killing this sport more than anything else. The bikes are viciously loud. Whenever I am anywhere near bikes, I have to...
Can't agree more! Noise is killing this sport more than anything else. The bikes are viciously loud. Whenever I am anywhere near bikes, I have to wear earplugs. It's bonkers.
Our machines are quieter than the four strokes that people first rode almost twenty years ago. Europe has even more land issues than the US so we are familiar with the reasons to be riding and racing quieter motorcycles.

Cost and safety are the biggest reasons the sport doesn't grow. Moms are not going to let little Johnny ride because electric bike that doesn't make noise.

Those of you that say bring it on, do you plan on paying for higher cost electric motorcycles or just think it will be great when others pay more?
Husky360
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Husky360 5/5/2017 11:30pm
5/5/2017 11:30pm
Aceofspades wrote:
Not only do I read, I've had training in electronics. Batteries have limitations that aren't going to be waved away with the "science" wand. If they...
Not only do I read, I've had training in electronics. Batteries have limitations that aren't going to be waved away with the "science" wand. If they can come up with a 1/1 charge/use ratio battery, that can be cheaply made and will last thousands of charges then I'm all for it.
Poppanator wrote:
Hehe, interesting that you quoted science and not "wand". ;) I think we might have different time perspectives here. In my world 10 years is short...
Hehe, interesting that you quoted science and not "wand". Wink

I think we might have different time perspectives here. In my world 10 years is short term when it comes to technical evolution/revolution like this. So in 10-15 years time the chance lithium-ion batteries are replaced is highly likely (lithium-air sounds cool). The fact that lithium-ion batteries for cars and mcs already today are sufficient enough for everyday purposes for most people, tells me that the transition from petrol fueled vehicles to electrical ones is inevitable. In 25-30 years time petrol cars will probably not even be manufactured at all anymore.
Do you know solid state batteries?
Nighttrain
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Nighttrain 5/5/2017 11:42pm
5/5/2017 11:42pm
Bring it. I'll be the old man telling the battery bike kids what it felt and sounded like sitting on a 2-stroke rocket as the gate dropped when I was their age.
Husky360
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Husky360 5/6/2017 12:15am
5/6/2017 12:15am
Nighttrain wrote:
Bring it. I'll be the old man telling the battery bike kids what it felt and sounded like sitting on a 2-stroke rocket as the gate...
Bring it. I'll be the old man telling the battery bike kids what it felt and sounded like sitting on a 2-stroke rocket as the gate dropped when I was their age.
Do you plan on paying for higher cost electric motorcycles or just think it will be great when others pay more? The sport got burned with four strokes and we've yet to recover.

F1, the world's most expensive form of motor racing, has a separate class for electric cars. What else needs to be said?
Nighttrain
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Nighttrain 5/6/2017 1:28am
5/6/2017 1:28am
Husky360 wrote:
Do you plan on paying for higher cost electric motorcycles or just think it will be great when others pay more? The sport got burned with...
Do you plan on paying for higher cost electric motorcycles or just think it will be great when others pay more? The sport got burned with four strokes and we've yet to recover.

F1, the world's most expensive form of motor racing, has a separate class for electric cars. What else needs to be said?
Meh, I still have only 2-stroke in my garage. If e-bikes open up more places to ride then that's a good thing, though. I'm guessing a lot of folks with a few acres will build play tracks in their back yards for them, their kids and friends to ride on. Might be good for trials riding, too.

Formula E isn't for me. Tried to watch it but hate the sounds, mandatory timed pit stops, all that.
GG83
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GG83 5/6/2017 3:59am
5/6/2017 3:59am
Aceofspades wrote:
Not only do I read, I've had training in electronics. Batteries have limitations that aren't going to be waved away with the "science" wand. If they...
Not only do I read, I've had training in electronics. Batteries have limitations that aren't going to be waved away with the "science" wand. If they can come up with a 1/1 charge/use ratio battery, that can be cheaply made and will last thousands of charges then I'm all for it.
Poppanator wrote:
Hehe, interesting that you quoted science and not "wand". ;) I think we might have different time perspectives here. In my world 10 years is short...
Hehe, interesting that you quoted science and not "wand". Wink

I think we might have different time perspectives here. In my world 10 years is short term when it comes to technical evolution/revolution like this. So in 10-15 years time the chance lithium-ion batteries are replaced is highly likely (lithium-air sounds cool). The fact that lithium-ion batteries for cars and mcs already today are sufficient enough for everyday purposes for most people, tells me that the transition from petrol fueled vehicles to electrical ones is inevitable. In 25-30 years time petrol cars will probably not even be manufactured at all anymore.
Husky360 wrote:
Do you know solid state batteries?
GRAPHEN will be our solution. In less than 5 years you'll have electric bikes that are going to be lighter and more powerfull than our current bikes. Charge will be super fast, battery extra light.

BTW, have you ever tested Electric assisted mountain bikes ? ;-)
kzizok
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kzizok 5/6/2017 4:37pm
5/6/2017 4:37pm
Aceofspades wrote:
Imagine your $8500 battery needs replacement after a few years lol. People eat it up just because it's new, no matter how unpractical. Now add a...
Imagine your $8500 battery needs replacement after a few years lol. People eat it up just because it's new, no matter how unpractical. Now add a very, very small gas engine on board to act as an charging alternator, then you've got something practical. That's the way cars need to go as well as opposed to just battery power.
KERS
jorgechavez 5/6/2017 5:10pm
5/6/2017 5:10pm
I don't see any reason not to homologate it, I don't think Alta has what it takes to compete against the big boys right now so I don't see much chance of them taking a championship or anything. It's the future and it will never be prepared for racing until they take it racing.

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Radical
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Radical 5/6/2017 5:40pm
5/6/2017 5:40pm
NV825 wrote:
Electric bikes should really have their own class instead of trying to fit them into the current classes immediately.
I agree.
Husky360
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Husky360 5/7/2017 12:30am
5/7/2017 12:30am Edited Date/Time 5/7/2017 12:41am
GG83 wrote:
GRAPHEN will be our solution. In less than 5 years you'll have electric bikes that are going to be lighter and more powerfull than our current...
GRAPHEN will be our solution. In less than 5 years you'll have electric bikes that are going to be lighter and more powerfull than our current bikes. Charge will be super fast, battery extra light.

BTW, have you ever tested Electric assisted mountain bikes ? ;-)
Will look for GRAPHEN. The advantages you list are all the more reason E bikes should be in their own class. If they let them in now they'd have an even bigger advantage in the future which should involve a rule revision. There was no rule revision to reduce the huge advantage four strokes arrived with so I have no reason to expect once E bikes are homologated the rules would ever be changed.

As the OP said until F1 and NASCAR allow electric vehicles to race against internal combustion engine the AMA doesn't have to be in any rush. FIM can take their time as well.

I have not ridden any electric assist mountain bikes.
Thor34103
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Thor34103 5/9/2017 10:55am
5/9/2017 10:55am
Having their own class sounds like a better idea. Or an exhibition like the KTM Jr's.

So F1 has a class for electric cars? What's their battery life like?
smrscott
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smrscott 5/9/2017 3:37pm
5/9/2017 3:37pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 3:38pm
After riding one, and with special maps, I could easily see the Alta being the first bike into the 250 class SX first turn. If they (AMA) allows them to test the bike for a season, I am all for it. But will they allow them to run special WORKS motors (not engines) and Works ultra expensive batteries or make them run production? All good questions. I am not sure if they would win or make a main but with the right rider and with lots of testing and a trick bike, I could see a night show for sure. And if they could win, (the first year) would be slitting their own necks unless the AMA rules were set in stone by that point. The AMA killed 250 two strokes because they wrote in the rules early on 250cc separation between two-stroke and four-stroke.

Off-Road Alta Impression
http://dirtbiketest.com/fresh-dirt/first-ride-impression-2017-alta-reds…
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rancor19 5/9/2017 5:10pm
5/9/2017 5:10pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 5:13pm
Aceofspades wrote:
Imagine your $8500 battery needs replacement after a few years lol. People eat it up just because it's new, no matter how unpractical. Now add a...
Imagine your $8500 battery needs replacement after a few years lol. People eat it up just because it's new, no matter how unpractical. Now add a very, very small gas engine on board to act as an charging alternator, then you've got something practical. That's the way cars need to go as well as opposed to just battery power.
Seems like the brakes could be made to work as a generator also.

Anyway, moto just wouldn't be the same(for fans/spectators) without the thunder...
-MAVERICK-
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-MAVERICK- 5/9/2017 7:15pm
5/9/2017 7:15pm
Thor34103 wrote:
Having their own class sounds like a better idea. Or an exhibition like the KTM Jr's. So F1 has a class for electric cars? What's their...
Having their own class sounds like a better idea. Or an exhibition like the KTM Jr's.

So F1 has a class for electric cars? What's their battery life like?
F1 does not have a class for electric cars. Formula E is a complete different series. I've tried to watch it but can't get into it. Don't get me wrong the technology is cool and is the future but watching full size cars making the noise of a slot cars is ridiculous in my opinion.

Not to mention the cars might have plenty of speed but a car can't complete an entire race. The drivers have to pit at a certain point, get out and change cars. Each teams have to have 2 identical cars because the batteries don't last long enough to complete an entire race. What's the logic in having 2 identical race cars a part from allowing them to finish a race I don't know. One thing is for sure it costs a lot more to have 2 identical cars than one. Twice the cost of maintenance, parts, etc. doesn't make sense.

I'm not a fan of electric bikes and although it might be the future for the sport of MX I say let them start their own professional series. Probably not realistic to have their own series at the local level so introducing their own classes would only make logical sense until there's enough of them out there to have multiple skill and age classes. When if/it gets to that point then let them race on separate race days. The days are already long enough we don't need to have more classes on the daily schedule. Separate bikes, separate series.

As far as the price goes for them yes they are expensive but it wouldn't be so bad if they allowed you to limit the power/speed that way as your kids grow you would simply need to turn the power/speed up and they could compete in faster classes. This would eliminate the need to buy bikes each year or couple of years. Kids would grow with the bike. Families that aren't super serious about racing and only race a couple of times a year could share a bike with their kids/teens, the wife, etc. eliminating the need to purchase multiple bikes for the family. Long term it could be cheaper if they make that option available to the consumers.
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Fourth_Floor 5/9/2017 7:32pm
5/9/2017 7:32pm
731chopper wrote:
Who in here has an electric motorcycle? I have an Oset for my son. Cool little bike that I take him to the park to ride...
Who in here has an electric motorcycle?

I have an Oset for my son. Cool little bike that I take him to the park to ride but there are still people who take offense to it because it's motorized and technically any motorized vehicle is illegal to ride even on the trails around here. This idea that people will start riding electric dirt bikes and everyone will be welcomed into society is a pipe dream. Cost, risk, dust/erosion, land owner liability, and interest are just some of the larger challenges our favorite hobby has. Europeans need to get a handle on their politicians but that's a different can of worms on its own.
Those Oset bikes look pretty cool. I have a downhill mountain bike I converted to electric and that thing is sooo much fun, it is basically a 50lb stealth dirt bike haha. The electric dirt bike appeal, to me anyhow, is being able to ride more places without everyone knowing that you are there. Those places may not exactly be legal but if no one can hear you then no harm no foul.....if a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it does it make a sound haha???

The stealth factor alone gives me boner pants.

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kzizok 5/9/2017 7:38pm
5/9/2017 7:38pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
F1 does not have a class for electric cars. Formula E is a complete different series. I've tried to watch it but can't get into it...
F1 does not have a class for electric cars. Formula E is a complete different series. I've tried to watch it but can't get into it. Don't get me wrong the technology is cool and is the future but watching full size cars making the noise of a slot cars is ridiculous in my opinion.

Not to mention the cars might have plenty of speed but a car can't complete an entire race. The drivers have to pit at a certain point, get out and change cars. Each teams have to have 2 identical cars because the batteries don't last long enough to complete an entire race. What's the logic in having 2 identical race cars a part from allowing them to finish a race I don't know. One thing is for sure it costs a lot more to have 2 identical cars than one. Twice the cost of maintenance, parts, etc. doesn't make sense.

I'm not a fan of electric bikes and although it might be the future for the sport of MX I say let them start their own professional series. Probably not realistic to have their own series at the local level so introducing their own classes would only make logical sense until there's enough of them out there to have multiple skill and age classes. When if/it gets to that point then let them race on separate race days. The days are already long enough we don't need to have more classes on the daily schedule. Separate bikes, separate series.

As far as the price goes for them yes they are expensive but it wouldn't be so bad if they allowed you to limit the power/speed that way as your kids grow you would simply need to turn the power/speed up and they could compete in faster classes. This would eliminate the need to buy bikes each year or couple of years. Kids would grow with the bike. Families that aren't super serious about racing and only race a couple of times a year could share a bike with their kids/teens, the wife, etc. eliminating the need to purchase multiple bikes for the family. Long term it could be cheaper if they make that option available to the consumers.
Not arguing, just posted this for clarification. Are F1 and FIA two different entities?


BTW, I posted two links at bottom of page 2. One about new battery technology and another with a ride report from seth505.

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seth505 5/9/2017 7:58pm
5/9/2017 7:58pm
kzizok wrote:
I obviously knew about this, as per my interaction in the thread. But here is a pretty good ride report on the Alta from one of...
I obviously knew about this, as per my interaction in the thread. But here is a pretty good ride report on the Alta from one of our own. I think seth505 is too humble to mention it (if it has been mentioned, forgive the duplication):

http://m.vitalmx.com/forums/Electric-Bikes,48/Rode-an-Alta-today,1310157
Haha thanks man, I didn't wanna paste it in myself and spam every electric thread with it.

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