The reason KTM cannot admit what we saw

Brownstone322 4/29/2017 9:25pm
4/29/2017 9:25pm
kaptkaos wrote:
I dont see a problem, you posted the rules like your were going to prove beyond a doubt that they violated a rule. I dont know...
I dont see a problem, you posted the rules like your were going to prove beyond a doubt that they violated a rule. I dont know, but I have been reading the English a long time, and the rule clearly states, FIXED or PRE-ARRANGED.

So youre telling me that before the race (pre-arranged) KTM instructed Marvin to be in the lead (beating 18 other non team members) and Ryan in second until the last lap, and them swap positions? Engaging in a race that was fixed is how it was worded, and that would require the winner of the race to be known before the race started and that was not the case, Marvin made a decision during the race that he would support his team and friend by relinquishing his position to his team mate.

The team and Marvin did NOT know who was going to win the race before they started, nobody knows who is going to win, they all try put themselves in a position to win. Team Orders mean that as the race unfolds one rider helps his Team by following orders to help his team mate by not hindering his progress toward achieving the teams goal. So even if Marvin was in 2nd and Ryan in 3rd, Team Orders are team orders and do not make a race result pre-determined or fixed. That would be fixed or predetermined if all the other teams were pulling over and letting Ryan by and blocking Eli.

I am sure Kawi love to tell JG to go out there and get the lead and keep it until Tomac can come take it from you on the last lap, but thats just isnt possible. I am pretty sure Kawi told Eli, go out there and get the Holeshot, and ride away from these clowns every weekend, and told JG not to hold him up or try to pass him. Is that pre-arranged or fixed?

Get over it people.
Good post. I agree with you in principal, but ...

I am pretty sure that Musquin is informed IN ADVANCE to let Dungey through in situations like those, even if, say, they were running sixth and seventh and Dungey was charging through the field. The only trick might be to know who exactly is behind you.

That said, common-sense team orders are reality. I was actually kinda shocked that Musquin ever overtook Dungey to begin with. I was equally shocked that Grant didn't make more effort to let Tomac through before Tomac went off circuit.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 4/29/2017 9:30pm
4/29/2017 9:30pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2017 9:30pm
Brownstone322 wrote:
Good post. I agree with you in principal, but ... I am pretty sure that Musquin is informed IN ADVANCE to let Dungey through in situations...
Good post. I agree with you in principal, but ...

I am pretty sure that Musquin is informed IN ADVANCE to let Dungey through in situations like those, even if, say, they were running sixth and seventh and Dungey was charging through the field. The only trick might be to know who exactly is behind you.

That said, common-sense team orders are reality. I was actually kinda shocked that Musquin ever overtook Dungey to begin with. I was equally shocked that Grant didn't make more effort to let Tomac through before Tomac went off circuit.
and there lies the problem...you say 'am pretty sure' ....you actually have no idea, its just what you think happened
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kzizok 4/29/2017 9:33pm
4/29/2017 9:33pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2017 9:38pm
Motodave15 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/29/191502/s1200_Screenshot_2017_04_29_20_38_34.jpg[/img]


FWIW, Decoster mentioned that their normal procedure is to have the rider and the rider behind him on the pit board, when asked by GuyB. Who knows.
PClaerhout 4/29/2017 9:33pm
4/29/2017 9:33pm
There's no proof, so it's "pretty sure"...but come on lol.

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Camduhman212
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Camduhman212 4/29/2017 9:33pm
4/29/2017 9:33pm
kiwifan wrote:
IF Marvin did pull over for Ryan, you are assuming KTM gave him an order to do so....unless you have proof then lets stop the conjecture...
IF Marvin did pull over for Ryan, you are assuming KTM gave him an order to do so....unless you have proof then lets stop the conjecture eh?
Acidreamer wrote:
I think proof is in the replay dude. If you really think marvin made a mistake in that rut and was all giddy on the podium...
I think proof is in the replay dude. If you really think marvin made a mistake in that rut and was all giddy on the podium for a mistake you need help. He moved over for ryan because of team orders. We saw it in detroit i think it was too. I knew there was a rule against this
Honestly,
Anyone knows in that's situation you twist that wrist and plow through whatever bogus crossrut / around any lappet your talking about making him stumble...on the final lap...?

No effin way, any yahoo would have gassed it out and got his run into the whoops, but he grapped a handful of front brake and pulled over then he even doubled the triple when he could have chose a safe line around the lapper to compete. Mine as well have had an orange metallic Baton to pass off to Dungey. But at the end of the day Dunge rode solid the whole way through and Tomac obviously had some serious issues.
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kaptkaos 4/29/2017 9:34pm
4/29/2017 9:34pm
I remember when 7 time F1 World Champion Michael Schumacher helped his Ferrari Teammate Eddie Irvine win a race as Irvine was in title contention and Shuey wasnt. In the post race conference Irvine thanks Schumacher and said, Michael is not only the best #1 in the world, he is also the best #2 in the world.

I have seen an F1 team call a driver in for an unscheduled pit stop to allow a pass to be made for the win.
Brownstone322 4/29/2017 9:42pm
4/29/2017 9:42pm
Brownstone322 wrote:
Good post. I agree with you in principal, but ... I am pretty sure that Musquin is informed IN ADVANCE to let Dungey through in situations...
Good post. I agree with you in principal, but ...

I am pretty sure that Musquin is informed IN ADVANCE to let Dungey through in situations like those, even if, say, they were running sixth and seventh and Dungey was charging through the field. The only trick might be to know who exactly is behind you.

That said, common-sense team orders are reality. I was actually kinda shocked that Musquin ever overtook Dungey to begin with. I was equally shocked that Grant didn't make more effort to let Tomac through before Tomac went off circuit.
kiwifan wrote:
and there lies the problem...you say 'am pretty sure' ....you actually have no idea, its just what you think happened
Or maybe I'm not stupid, and I know how pro teams with sponsors to answer to operate.
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kiwifan 4/29/2017 9:46pm
4/29/2017 9:46pm
kiwifan wrote:
IF Marvin did pull over for Ryan, you are assuming KTM gave him an order to do so....unless you have proof then lets stop the conjecture...
IF Marvin did pull over for Ryan, you are assuming KTM gave him an order to do so....unless you have proof then lets stop the conjecture eh?
Acidreamer wrote:
I think proof is in the replay dude. If you really think marvin made a mistake in that rut and was all giddy on the podium...
I think proof is in the replay dude. If you really think marvin made a mistake in that rut and was all giddy on the podium for a mistake you need help. He moved over for ryan because of team orders. We saw it in detroit i think it was too. I knew there was a rule against this
you are saying it was team orders like it is fact....I think you need help Smile
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kiwifan 4/29/2017 9:47pm
4/29/2017 9:47pm
Brownstone322 wrote:
Or maybe I'm not stupid, and I know how pro teams with sponsors to answer to operate.
Lets agree to disagree
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zehn 4/29/2017 9:58pm
4/29/2017 9:58pm
I'm always amazed by how many people struggle with what constitutes a fact or proof.
KurtJ99
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KurtJ99 4/29/2017 10:00pm
4/29/2017 10:00pm
Agree with OP that it's against rules, but proving it is not gonna happen.
I genuinely believe he pulled over for Ryan after slowing down for him. No team orders, but certainly a team understanding. He is no Hannah and wasn't going to ride off into the woods in anger after compromising his integrity for team orders anyways. Can we prove it with just an observation? Reed was penalized when it was observed he was impeding Dungey when being lapped. So what is the standard of proof needed.
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kzizok 4/29/2017 10:01pm
4/29/2017 10:01pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2017 10:05pm
In a nutshell, team tactics have been around for as long as the sport, like it or not. It wasn't surprising, yet expected. Tomac had a bad night, which put him in a situation where tactics could come into play.

The real story here is Tomac's poor performance, with no one else to blame but himself. I would be willing to bet that he would say the same thing. Everything else falls in line behind said performance.
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kiwifan 4/29/2017 10:06pm
4/29/2017 10:06pm
kzizok wrote:
In a nutshell, team tactics have been around for as long as the sport, like it or not. It wasn't surprising, yet expected. Tomac had a...
In a nutshell, team tactics have been around for as long as the sport, like it or not. It wasn't surprising, yet expected. Tomac had a bad night, which put him in a situation where tactics could come into play.

The real story here is Tomac's poor performance, with no one else to blame but himself. I would be willing to bet that he would say the same thing. Everything else falls in line behind said performance.
Agree, good post
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Ing 4/29/2017 10:19pm
4/29/2017 10:19pm
Grant did everything in his power to let Eli by. Eli just couldn't muster the speed. I'm sure Dungey will sleep just great tonight knowing the championship is his to lose. Will he choke like Eli did? Doubt it, Ryan isn't a choker. Even if the board would have said "Ryan, let him by", that doesn't mean it was an order. Marvin, Ryan and Eli know the reason he's behind in points. Major choke, again. Ryan was on it all night and even if Marvin wasn't on the track would have beaten Eli substantially. As you all saw.
TbonesPop 4/29/2017 10:35pm
4/29/2017 10:35pm
Shake and bake baby! Slingshot engage! Gotta love it. Real life Ricky Bobby.

Who gives a fuck? Tomac screwed himself. Still a lot that can happen next weekend. It's not over.
Brownstone322 4/29/2017 10:38pm
4/29/2017 10:38pm
TbonesPop wrote:
Shake and bake baby! Slingshot engage! Gotta love it. Real life Ricky Bobby. Who gives a fuck? Tomac screwed himself. Still a lot that can happen...
Shake and bake baby! Slingshot engage! Gotta love it. Real life Ricky Bobby.

Who gives a fuck? Tomac screwed himself. Still a lot that can happen next weekend. It's not over.
Ugh! "Shake 'n' Bake" is a good analogy! Why didn't I think of that?
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chope573 4/29/2017 10:47pm
4/29/2017 10:47pm
level wrote:
Who cares. We've seen it a million times over the years. Marvin is not in the championship hunt and of course he's going to let him...
Who cares. We've seen it a million times over the years. Marvin is not in the championship hunt and of course he's going to let him by. Be a dick move if he didn't. KTM should do everything to have a rider win a championship. If the roles were reversed then dungey would move over. This is a team and bike manufacturer championship we are talking about. It's very important . Could you imagine how bad it would be if dungey ended up losing over 2 or 3 points because marvin didn't let him by? That would be very bad.
Totally agree ^^^
Giygas 4/29/2017 10:55pm
4/29/2017 10:55pm
Chris_Cooksey wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/29/191501/s1200_IMG_2543.jpg[/img] Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The...


Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The penalty can be whatever he thinks is fair and equitable.
Holy shit. This is one of the most glorious collective melts I've seen on Vital. You snowflakes are literally making me laugh out loud.

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Phillip_Lamb 4/29/2017 11:36pm
4/29/2017 11:36pm
Chris_Cooksey wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/29/191501/s1200_IMG_2543.jpg[/img] Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The...


Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The penalty can be whatever he thinks is fair and equitable.
team tactics isnt fixing. Fixing comes down to Pre-arranging the results. if they were in 3&4th and Moose let him by it still wouldnt fall under these rules.

also in regards to Musquin moving over, its not unheard of that when a guys 'has' to move over they typically compensate him with the pay he wouldve gotten for winning. Bob hannah has talked about this as well as other guys.
Its possible Musquin only passed him to get the 1st place bonus but let dungey have the points
lostboy819 4/30/2017 12:41am
4/30/2017 12:41am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2017 12:42am
If I was Marvin I would have done the same thing and I would not need team orders to do it. Wink I bet KTM pays Marvin the win bonus.
jorgechavez 4/30/2017 12:53am
4/30/2017 12:53am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2017 12:53am
So based on the rules does anyone know if the Kawi team has tried to protest? I really don't see a problem with Marv pulling over, I think if you can win you should but if you get paid as much or more I don't see a down side. i honestly doubt anything would happen even if they did protest but I feel
there's potential for some shady things to happen in
the industry.
inthebadboycorner 4/30/2017 2:00am
4/30/2017 2:00am
The should have just written " Let Broc bye" and be done with it, at least we would all get a laugh out of it, well most of us anyway!
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philG 4/30/2017 2:47am
4/30/2017 2:47am
71Fish wrote:
If the order was to pull over, why would Marvin risk passing Dungey in the first place?
This is the question i am asking.. if Marv holeshots and goes away , fair enough, but he raced and passed Dungey , put in great laps , and led from the front... Dungey hung with him , and did it well, im thinking if if Marv had gapped him it may have been different.

What i dont get , is that Eli took for freaking EVER to get back on the bike and fire it up.. jesus man its a RACE .. i would be fuming if i was Kawi at that point.

Also , just what the hell was everyone else in the main doing, for Eli to make 8th , the rest looked like they were just rolling round in the main .

As much as RC bugs me , his 'Red Plate' weighs a lot statement has never been truer.

If Marvin hadnt pulled over , everyone would be losing their shit over that too.
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TXDirt 4/30/2017 2:52am
4/30/2017 2:52am
level wrote:
Who cares. We've seen it a million times over the years. Marvin is not in the championship hunt and of course he's going to let him...
Who cares. We've seen it a million times over the years. Marvin is not in the championship hunt and of course he's going to let him by. Be a dick move if he didn't. KTM should do everything to have a rider win a championship. If the roles were reversed then dungey would move over. This is a team and bike manufacturer championship we are talking about. It's very important . Could you imagine how bad it would be if dungey ended up losing over 2 or 3 points because marvin didn't let him by? That would be very bad.
X2
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Bultaco 4/30/2017 3:19am
4/30/2017 3:19am
@Chris. No one cares. The next time your boss tells you do something, let us know how not doing it works.
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jpracer931 4/30/2017 4:13am
4/30/2017 4:13am
Motodave15 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/29/191502/s1200_Screenshot_2017_04_29_20_38_34.jpg[/img]


mattyhamz2 wrote:
Looks like proof to me
Only thing this pic proves if to marvin is that there is 1 lap left and ryan is behind him,get over this pic guys
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jtiger12 4/30/2017 4:20am
4/30/2017 4:20am
philG wrote:
This is the question i am asking.. if Marv holeshots and goes away , fair enough, but he raced and passed Dungey , put in great...
This is the question i am asking.. if Marv holeshots and goes away , fair enough, but he raced and passed Dungey , put in great laps , and led from the front... Dungey hung with him , and did it well, im thinking if if Marv had gapped him it may have been different.

What i dont get , is that Eli took for freaking EVER to get back on the bike and fire it up.. jesus man its a RACE .. i would be fuming if i was Kawi at that point.

Also , just what the hell was everyone else in the main doing, for Eli to make 8th , the rest looked like they were just rolling round in the main .

As much as RC bugs me , his 'Red Plate' weighs a lot statement has never been truer.

If Marvin hadnt pulled over , everyone would be losing their shit over that too.
Agree. Earlier in the day during timed qualifiers, Eli had a small crash on the start straight right before the first rhythm lane. Low side, he hit some slick stuff and lost the back end. When he got back up, it took him about 30 kicks to get the bike started, wasting a load of time. You could see him stop kicking several times to check if the bike was in neutral, and his kicks were not good tdc stabs at the lever. They were rushed half stroke kicks like you can use on a 2stroke after a washout. I couldnt believe he was having so much difficulty getting the bike started either
Andy_Greenney 4/30/2017 4:40am
4/30/2017 4:40am
jtiger12 wrote:
Agree. Earlier in the day during timed qualifiers, Eli had a small crash on the start straight right before the first rhythm lane. Low side, he...
Agree. Earlier in the day during timed qualifiers, Eli had a small crash on the start straight right before the first rhythm lane. Low side, he hit some slick stuff and lost the back end. When he got back up, it took him about 30 kicks to get the bike started, wasting a load of time. You could see him stop kicking several times to check if the bike was in neutral, and his kicks were not good tdc stabs at the lever. They were rushed half stroke kicks like you can use on a 2stroke after a washout. I couldnt believe he was having so much difficulty getting the bike started either
No need to bother with tdc anymore, but an e-start would have definitely been beneficial
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JSmith 4/30/2017 4:46am
4/30/2017 4:46am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2017 4:50am
I think Marvin and his mechanic have probably discussed this possibility and that is why you saw 'Ryan' on his pit board. I think Marvin decided on his own to pull up and let Dungey by. I don't see the problem with him doing that. It doesn't matter anyway. Eli choked BIG time and threw this title away.
Jeff_Crutcher 4/30/2017 5:02am
4/30/2017 5:02am
Team orders or maybe REALLY close friends? When you already have enough money like Marvin does, and your bro, teammate, training partner, and soon be retiree has the 'ship on the line- you're gonna hand it to him. It's called being A) a company man and Cool a close friend.

I'd do the same in Missouri state series. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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