The reason KTM cannot admit what we saw

4/30/2017 5:05am
The overtake was real close to overtaking under yellow, think RD is real lucky on that one

wfo4ever
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4/30/2017 5:45am
The should have just written " Let Broc bye" and be done with it, at least we would all get a laugh out of it, well...
The should have just written " Let Broc bye" and be done with it, at least we would all get a laugh out of it, well most of us anyway!
Or they could have just wrote "It's just a dirt bike race". The "Let Broc Bye" happened years ago but is still remembered as Team Yamaha cheating to change the outcome of a Championship. It made Yamaha look bad and people knew Broc Glover winning the Championship was not legit.
FolkLoar
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4/30/2017 6:03am
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/29/191501/s1200_IMG_2543.jpg[/img] Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The...


Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The penalty can be whatever he thinks is fair and equitable.
To the OP.. Or any other special needs posters that agree with him.

What happened last night is not even close to ANYTHING in the rule book you posted above..

A reading comprehension class would go a long way for some of you. Maybe GuyB could negotiate a special discount code for some online classes?
yak651
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4/30/2017 6:05am
The overtake was real close to overtaking under yellow, think RD is real lucky on that one

What? this isn't local racing you can pass under yellow.

The Shop

gnarwhip
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4/30/2017 6:15am
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his legacy now. Sure he got his new contract and his money, but in bench racing he will be remembered as the guy who is Dungey's little buddy.
davistld01
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4/30/2017 6:43am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2017 6:46am
gnarwhip wrote:
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his...
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his legacy now. Sure he got his new contract and his money, but in bench racing he will be remembered as the guy who is Dungey's little buddy.
Dumbest thing I've read yet.

But, I'll take the bait.

I believe DeCoster said exactly what he meant to say. Marvin was racing, and had a chance to pass Dungey...so, naturally as a racer, he did...because Marvin wants another win. But, he realizes that it'll cost his teammate a championship...and KTM one as well if he carries on. Marvin Musquin did exactly what any rider for any team would have done...for the betterment of his friend & teammate to win the title, and for the team who pays him well to clinch the championship, he made it easier for Ryan Dungey to pass him. No shame at all in that. It does not make him any less of a man, or any less of a professional motocross racer. I think it took a hell of a lot of personal character to do it.

Many other teams would have given team orders, but I don't think Marvin was given any by DeCoster. I think he knew what had to be done, and he did it on his own.

As far as his legacy being tainted, that's bullshit too. Anybody with any personal integrity...which you don't seem to have the ability to discern, would think more of Marvin, not less.

Besides, who will give a shit after he wins a title or two next year? Cool
stokes557
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4/30/2017 6:48am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2017 6:49am
The title was there for the taking and Tomac did not. I guess Tomac had struggled all day, bike setup, nerves what ever. As far as team orders or an gentleman's agreement between the two riders ya probably but so what that's how the game is played. Josh Grant could have slowed up and let Tomac by but chose not too what does that say about the team work at Kawasaki or the respect between the two. I think is a experience Eli needed to go through and will actually make him a better rider he has been fast, consistent and now just needs that mental toughness that comes through these type of situations. Las Vegas will be epic and now Eli can just let it all hang out and we all know anything can happen. It has been a great supercross season and I have not missed watching a race the only way it could have better was to have Kenny healthy all year. I cant wait for the motocross season to start I think Eli will definitely have a chip on his shoulder if he does not win this title and will Dominate.
TXDirt
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4/30/2017 7:13am
stokes557 wrote:
The title was there for the taking and Tomac did not. I guess Tomac had struggled all day, bike setup, nerves what ever. As far as...
The title was there for the taking and Tomac did not. I guess Tomac had struggled all day, bike setup, nerves what ever. As far as team orders or an gentleman's agreement between the two riders ya probably but so what that's how the game is played. Josh Grant could have slowed up and let Tomac by but chose not too what does that say about the team work at Kawasaki or the respect between the two. I think is a experience Eli needed to go through and will actually make him a better rider he has been fast, consistent and now just needs that mental toughness that comes through these type of situations. Las Vegas will be epic and now Eli can just let it all hang out and we all know anything can happen. It has been a great supercross season and I have not missed watching a race the only way it could have better was to have Kenny healthy all year. I cant wait for the motocross season to start I think Eli will definitely have a chip on his shoulder if he does not win this title and will Dominate.
Grant was ready to let Eli by. Problem is Eli was too busy having an epic melt down to give Grant the chance. Grant even took a few glances back ready and waiting for Eli.

I agree with everything you said.
TXDirt
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4/30/2017 7:17am
gnarwhip wrote:
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his...
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his legacy now. Sure he got his new contract and his money, but in bench racing he will be remembered as the guy who is Dungey's little buddy.
davistld01 wrote:
Dumbest thing I've read yet. But, I'll take the bait. I believe DeCoster said exactly what he meant to say. Marvin was racing, and had a...
Dumbest thing I've read yet.

But, I'll take the bait.

I believe DeCoster said exactly what he meant to say. Marvin was racing, and had a chance to pass Dungey...so, naturally as a racer, he did...because Marvin wants another win. But, he realizes that it'll cost his teammate a championship...and KTM one as well if he carries on. Marvin Musquin did exactly what any rider for any team would have done...for the betterment of his friend & teammate to win the title, and for the team who pays him well to clinch the championship, he made it easier for Ryan Dungey to pass him. No shame at all in that. It does not make him any less of a man, or any less of a professional motocross racer. I think it took a hell of a lot of personal character to do it.

Many other teams would have given team orders, but I don't think Marvin was given any by DeCoster. I think he knew what had to be done, and he did it on his own.

As far as his legacy being tainted, that's bullshit too. Anybody with any personal integrity...which you don't seem to have the ability to discern, would think more of Marvin, not less.

Besides, who will give a shit after he wins a title or two next year? Cool
Very well said. Marvin and Dungey are friends, training partners, and teammates. The championship is more important to KTM and ultimately to Marvin then a single late season race win. I respect and understand why he let Dungey by. That's strategic racing. And it's racing just the same.

I give props to everyone at KTM and Husky because over the last few weeks they have had every opportunity to race Eli rough and none of them have. Raced him hard but never anything dirty. I think that says a lot for the team managers and racers. It's been a great series.
dkg
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4/30/2017 7:21am
stokes557 wrote:
The title was there for the taking and Tomac did not. I guess Tomac had struggled all day, bike setup, nerves what ever. As far as...
The title was there for the taking and Tomac did not. I guess Tomac had struggled all day, bike setup, nerves what ever. As far as team orders or an gentleman's agreement between the two riders ya probably but so what that's how the game is played. Josh Grant could have slowed up and let Tomac by but chose not too what does that say about the team work at Kawasaki or the respect between the two. I think is a experience Eli needed to go through and will actually make him a better rider he has been fast, consistent and now just needs that mental toughness that comes through these type of situations. Las Vegas will be epic and now Eli can just let it all hang out and we all know anything can happen. It has been a great supercross season and I have not missed watching a race the only way it could have better was to have Kenny healthy all year. I cant wait for the motocross season to start I think Eli will definitely have a chip on his shoulder if he does not win this title and will Dominate.
Yep, an expensive lesson for sure but will make him a better rider for next year. Whatever the cause, Tomac road yesterday like he did at the beginning of the season.
JLong
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4/30/2017 7:25am
Tomac fans (and nut sucklers) will be devastated when Marv wins the title next year.
MXisLIFE
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4/30/2017 7:33am
This is professional racing where the best man wins any given race..

Stick and ball sports have rules against embezzlement. Which is based on officials on the spot call if they think you flopped they penalize you on the spot and review it further and potentially receive a monetary fine

This is to ensure the integrity of the sport isn't lost!

Again this is PROFESSIONAL racing.. The integrity of the sport is lost when you blatantly see a team member pull over!

This is not a team sport! This is disgusting to see and no matter how big or small you see this issue, this is a professional sport and needs to be addressed as such!

Especially if we ever want our sport to grow and be on a bigger platform!
ac0271
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4/30/2017 7:36am
Very similar situation happened in NASCAR series, when Martin truex jr spun out on purpose a few years ago to advance his then teammate Clint bowyer into the chase. Serious fines were levied and they lost their primary sponsor NAPA for that. we all know it was intentional.
Ted722
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4/30/2017 7:40am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2017 8:18am
JSmith wrote:
I think Marvin and his mechanic have probably discussed this possibility and that is why you saw 'Ryan' on his pit board. I think Marvin decided...
I think Marvin and his mechanic have probably discussed this possibility and that is why you saw 'Ryan' on his pit board. I think Marvin decided on his own to pull up and let Dungey by. I don't see the problem with him doing that. It doesn't matter anyway. Eli choked BIG time and threw this title away.
Yes. An early retirement gift too? Wink
pilotdude
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4/30/2017 7:49am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2017 8:18am
This isn't a court of law, and proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" would not be required. No reasonable person would try to argue that Musquin didn't pull over.

Here's what happened:

1. Tomac, for whatever reason, had a very sub-par night. Bad night to do so. Bad, bad, bad.

2. Marvin pulled over, against the rules, and let Dungey by to pad his points lead. Dungey now has a 9 point lead instead of a 6 point lead.

Now you will see the moon turn into cheese before you see the powers that be take any action against the obvious violation of which Musquin is guilty. They took action against Savatgy for his violation, however. Pick and choose rule enforcement is the worst of all worlds, because what it really means is there are no rules, just preference, bias, corruption, and bribery.

I would have greatly preferred seeing Musquin win the race, and see Dungey with a 6 point lead...which would still be very hard for Tomac to overcome. Then, the only thing we would be talking about today is how badly Tomac blew it.

Now I hope either one of 2 things happen in Vegas:

1. Dungey has a mechanical and is unable to finish the race and loses the championship or

2. Dungey goes down in the first turn and has to make a charge through the pack, but only charges far enough so that they end the season tied on points, and Tomac wins the championship due to his far higher number of wins as the tie breaker.

I completely understand why Musquin and KTM did what they did, but I just cannot respect it and I hope some cosmic justice occurs, because human justice will not.

crashomatic
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4/30/2017 7:52am
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/29/191501/s1200_IMG_2543.jpg[/img] Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The...


Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The penalty can be whatever he thinks is fair and equitable.
Where is the violation?

3. Prearranged or fixed? Nope.
4. Offering a bribe? Nope.
5. Accepting a bribe? Nope.

The 1992 Bradshaw vs Stanton race where JMB clearly tries to undermine his own teammate by following Bradshaw. Would that have been worthy of a penalty for "fixing" the race had the circumstance resulted in a win for Bradshaw?

If Musquin had never passed Dungey would that have been a violation of the rules?

The intent of those rules is clear. Pre-arranged "fixing" of a race. If Dungey intentionally pulled over to let Musquin by and allow Tomac win the championship....yes. That could be seen as something fishy. Otherwise all's fair in love and motowars!
pilotdude
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4/30/2017 8:00am
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/29/191501/s1200_IMG_2543.jpg[/img] Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The...


Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The penalty can be whatever he thinks is fair and equitable.
Where is the violation? 3. Prearranged or fixed? Nope. 4. Offering a bribe? Nope. 5. Accepting a bribe? Nope. The 1992 Bradshaw vs Stanton race where...
Where is the violation?

3. Prearranged or fixed? Nope.
4. Offering a bribe? Nope.
5. Accepting a bribe? Nope.

The 1992 Bradshaw vs Stanton race where JMB clearly tries to undermine his own teammate by following Bradshaw. Would that have been worthy of a penalty for "fixing" the race had the circumstance resulted in a win for Bradshaw?

If Musquin had never passed Dungey would that have been a violation of the rules?

The intent of those rules is clear. Pre-arranged "fixing" of a race. If Dungey intentionally pulled over to let Musquin by and allow Tomac win the championship....yes. That could be seen as something fishy. Otherwise all's fair in love and motowars!
Pulling over and letting a teammate by deliberately in order to give that teammate a larger points lead is "fixing" a race. If you are trying to argue differently, you must be a lawyer.
kburgie
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4/30/2017 8:08am
MXisLIFE wrote:
This is professional racing where the best man wins any given race.. Stick and ball sports have rules against embezzlement. Which is based on officials on...
This is professional racing where the best man wins any given race..

Stick and ball sports have rules against embezzlement. Which is based on officials on the spot call if they think you flopped they penalize you on the spot and review it further and potentially receive a monetary fine

This is to ensure the integrity of the sport isn't lost!

Again this is PROFESSIONAL racing.. The integrity of the sport is lost when you blatantly see a team member pull over!

This is not a team sport! This is disgusting to see and no matter how big or small you see this issue, this is a professional sport and needs to be addressed as such!

Especially if we ever want our sport to grow and be on a bigger platform!
In the NFL players will help other players reach performance bonuses if they're close. They all have individual deals, like $1 million for 8 sacks and then $100k for the next and 200k for the one after that...

In professional cycling there is one guy per team who is supposed to win. His 4-5 teammates are there to block and to pull him forward, and then to let him go at the end.

In running races from sprints to the marathon there are rabbits who pull the pack out to a fast start and then step off the track, and are paid well for it.
Silas444
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4/30/2017 8:17am
pilotdude wrote:
Pulling over and letting a teammate by deliberately in order to give that teammate a larger points lead is "fixing" a race. If you are trying...
Pulling over and letting a teammate by deliberately in order to give that teammate a larger points lead is "fixing" a race. If you are trying to argue differently, you must be a lawyer.
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them if they choose to. Period. Heck, Musquin could have stopped one inch shy of the finish line and let every racer LAP him ten times - IF HE CHOSE TO.
pilotdude
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4/30/2017 8:22am
Silas444 wrote:
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them...
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them if they choose to. Period. Heck, Musquin could have stopped one inch shy of the finish line and let every racer LAP him ten times - IF HE CHOSE TO.
You and others like you are the reason so much fucked up shit is deemed as acceptable in this world.
crashomatic
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4/30/2017 8:23am
It's really not that complicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixing

Fixing is losing intentionally for the big payoff on the back end. If Dungey does in fact pay Musquin hundreds of thousands then they better be real careful how that transaction occurs.

The big payoff for Musquin will come in future returns.

I'm sure Dungey will take Marvin out to dinner this week....maybe he'll wait until next week after this is all over. Maybe he'll leave a $100k tip to the server, who then turns around and buys an autographed jersey from Marvin Musquin for $100k.........

There's ways we can make this work. Wink
seth505
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4/30/2017 8:23am
gnarwhip wrote:
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his...
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his legacy now. Sure he got his new contract and his money, but in bench racing he will be remembered as the guy who is Dungey's little buddy.
Only according to some salty vital posters.
crashomatic
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4/30/2017 8:34am
Silas444 wrote:
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them...
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them if they choose to. Period. Heck, Musquin could have stopped one inch shy of the finish line and let every racer LAP him ten times - IF HE CHOSE TO.
pilotdude wrote:
You and others like you are the reason so much fucked up shit is deemed as acceptable in this world.
Ouch!

I guess you weren't cheering for Dungey....and this "Pullovergate" is all the reason to up and bomb the KTM factory. I hope Trump wasn't rooting for Tomac.
4/30/2017 8:46am
Bultaco wrote:
@Chris. No one cares. The next time your boss tells you do something, let us know how not doing it works.
Haha, nice post!
MXisLIFE
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4/30/2017 8:46am Edited Date/Time 4/30/2017 8:49am
kburgie wrote:
In the NFL players will help other players reach performance bonuses if they're close. They all have individual deals, like $1 million for 8 sacks and...
In the NFL players will help other players reach performance bonuses if they're close. They all have individual deals, like $1 million for 8 sacks and then $100k for the next and 200k for the one after that...

In professional cycling there is one guy per team who is supposed to win. His 4-5 teammates are there to block and to pull him forward, and then to let him go at the end.

In running races from sprints to the marathon there are rabbits who pull the pack out to a fast start and then step off the track, and are paid well for it.
You're just trying to just the legitimize the actions from last night... NFL will help others reach milestones true but they don't throw a game while doing so..

NBA is determining if players resting is an illegitimate practice!

Ppl do help others yes it's true!.. but to hand deliver a fucking win on a silver platter is absolutely unacceptable!!..

If dungey had 72 SX wins and on his 73rd win musquin pulled over so said guy could break Carmichaels win record? That would be ok and Ricky would be totally happy for dungey breaking records by getting handed wins!..

Come on guy!
4/30/2017 8:54am
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/04/29/191501/s1200_IMG_2543.jpg[/img] Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The...


Right out of the rule book, and unlike the court system John Gallagher can choose to apply any of these rules to this situation. The penalty can be whatever he thinks is fair and equitable.
FolkLoar wrote:
To the OP.. Or any other special needs posters that agree with him. What happened last night is not even close to ANYTHING in the rule...
To the OP.. Or any other special needs posters that agree with him.

What happened last night is not even close to ANYTHING in the rule book you posted above..

A reading comprehension class would go a long way for some of you. Maybe GuyB could negotiate a special discount code for some online classes?
Love this! I am not saying the rules apply, I am saying John Gallagher has the power to decide if they apply. If he sees anything in there that aligns with what happened on the track, he can choose the punishment. Will he? Doubt it, but he has the power.

Silas444
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4/30/2017 8:56am
Silas444 wrote:
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them...
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them if they choose to. Period. Heck, Musquin could have stopped one inch shy of the finish line and let every racer LAP him ten times - IF HE CHOSE TO.
pilotdude wrote:
You and others like you are the reason so much fucked up shit is deemed as acceptable in this world.
Exactly. There's just too much goddaam free will out there, and it simply MUST be stopped. We all need to be controlled by controlling authorities who can wield great power over us and bend us to their will, whether it's in our best interests or not, and I feel confidant all other motocrossers share this view. So thank you for setting me straight.
Forty
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4/30/2017 9:00am
gnarwhip wrote:
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his...
The funny part is after last night, Marvin will only be remembered as the guy who let Dungey by. For the next 20 years. That's his legacy now. Sure he got his new contract and his money, but in bench racing he will be remembered as the guy who is Dungey's little buddy.
Gnarwhip man. Kinda bitter. You ok?
Lester
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4/30/2017 9:01am
Silas444 wrote:
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them...
Either you're trolling, or you're just not using your noodle. Any racer, anywhere, at any time or place, can let any other racer anywhere beat them if they choose to. Period. Heck, Musquin could have stopped one inch shy of the finish line and let every racer LAP him ten times - IF HE CHOSE TO.
pilotdude wrote:
You and others like you are the reason so much fucked up shit is deemed as acceptable in this world.
Says the guy who wished BAD LUCK on Ryan Dungey a few posts up. I guess your shit don't stink, huh?

Pulling over is not the same as fixing or predetermining a race. Even if you could argue that Marvin intentionally pulled over, you couldn't show that it was predetermined, not to mention that if Marvin pulled over, it would be MARVIN that would be breaking the rules, and it would be MARVIN that should be punished. Yet, you wish bad luck on Dungey next week? Do you find that acceptable?

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