3D printing in moto

T-MAC
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1/27/2016 11:56am
Grizz wrote:
The future is coming. Don't deny it or you'll end up like those guys that used to sell blocks of ice to keep food stored safely...
The future is coming. Don't deny it or you'll end up like those guys that used to sell blocks of ice to keep food stored safely.

Gotta love that first comment, "Make ti bolts." Out of plastic? haha

If I had one I'd definitely make one of those Cycra style front brake cable guides.
That's exactly what I made haha. Printed in yz blue abs.
T-MAC
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1/27/2016 11:57am
ive used it to protoype TONS of parts on my bike project and saved myself hundreds/thousands of dollars. just using a little makerbot 2, nothing crazy...
ive used it to protoype TONS of parts on my bike project and saved myself hundreds/thousands of dollars.
just using a little makerbot 2, nothing crazy. the SLA stuff is insanely nice but price per prototype part is about like 5x +
I helped develop the replicator 2 ironically. Spent about three years working at MakerBot.
tprice07
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1/27/2016 12:01pm
That little part was pry 10X more than the real one if you put value on time and cost of owning that machine. On top of that it will brake. Injection mold would be better. Buy a good CNC mill to make molds or mill from a block of material.
seth505
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1/27/2016 12:09pm
tprice07 wrote:
That little part was pry 10X more than the real one if you put value on time and cost of owning that machine. On top of...
That little part was pry 10X more than the real one if you put value on time and cost of owning that machine. On top of that it will brake. Injection mold would be better. Buy a good CNC mill to make molds or mill from a block of material.
Good in some cases, but when you start engineering designs for AM then you can't use subtractive manufacturing processes anymore. Creating something with an internal lattice structure rather than solid walls for example.

When you just take plastic or metal 3D printed parts that simply replicate what is already mold/cast/machined, then you limit the advantages.

The Shop

JBernard_401
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1/27/2016 12:15pm
T-MAC wrote:
I helped develop the replicator 2 ironically. Spent about three years working at MakerBot.
thats rad.
what kind of background do you have, fab, mech, elec?
JM485
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1/27/2016 12:16pm
I made this for my 125, just a simple brake line holder but I think it's pretty cool. It was really just an experiment to get a feel for the process and see how the part is made, but it hasn't broken yet so I call it a success.



philG
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1/27/2016 12:16pm
These guys have made a full MTB frame , which looks great , i didnt get to feel the weight of it because it was on a display stand , and i dont know what type of testing they have done, but we have these machines working on lots of things.


.kyle
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1/27/2016 12:25pm
Charge Bikes I believe it is) 3d print their bike frame dropouts out of titanium
OldYZRider1
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1/27/2016 12:34pm
I believe GE is starting to produce some intricate parts for their turbine engines with a 3D metal fusion process. There's potential to produce "shapes", especially with internal passages, that are virtually impossible with conventional casting or machining methods. Its also possible to produce internal valves or separate internal parts that that couldn't even be replaced or installed externally. I had a 3D plastic printing machine manufacturer send me a plastic roller chain made on their machine. It was a closed chain (no master link) and had pins and rollers; the real deal, just in plastic. A very light "connector" of plastic held the roller fixed to the pin that was necessary to "print" it. You just needed to rotate the roller slightly to break that connector and then it was free to roll on the pin. The sideplates and pin were all of one piece. Pretty neat example of what can be done. I think the potential for fused metal 3D printing is huge and should remove some "manufacturability" barriers that constrain or limit current designs.
T-MAC
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1/27/2016 12:51pm
thats rad.
what kind of background do you have, fab, mech, elec?
I have a degree in manufacturing engineering. I was a test engineer at mbi that was involved in product development. I've since moved to CA and am now designing surgical instrumentation. I'm still pretty obsessed with 3DP though haha.
philG
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1/27/2016 12:53pm
I believe GE is starting to produce some intricate parts for their turbine engines with a 3D metal fusion process. There's potential to produce "shapes", especially...
I believe GE is starting to produce some intricate parts for their turbine engines with a 3D metal fusion process. There's potential to produce "shapes", especially with internal passages, that are virtually impossible with conventional casting or machining methods. Its also possible to produce internal valves or separate internal parts that that couldn't even be replaced or installed externally. I had a 3D plastic printing machine manufacturer send me a plastic roller chain made on their machine. It was a closed chain (no master link) and had pins and rollers; the real deal, just in plastic. A very light "connector" of plastic held the roller fixed to the pin that was necessary to "print" it. You just needed to rotate the roller slightly to break that connector and then it was free to roll on the pin. The sideplates and pin were all of one piece. Pretty neat example of what can be done. I think the potential for fused metal 3D printing is huge and should remove some "manufacturability" barriers that constrain or limit current designs.
All of the above is correct . Laser fusion welding is awesome, but it does have limitations, but they are being slowly over come.
seth505
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1/27/2016 1:40pm Edited Date/Time 1/27/2016 1:41pm
Ya, a good example is a very complex injector for a turbine engine that was a large assembly now being printed in metal as a single part (or like 4 parts brazed together).
731chopper
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1/27/2016 3:20pm
When does Skynet take over?
Joko
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Fantasy
1/27/2016 4:02pm
Nice process, many design possibilities, however metal is limited to to cast material properties, vs forged or wrought.
mx836
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1/27/2016 4:13pm
Trek has been 3D printing titanium bicycle parts for years. Get with the times people.
Joko
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Fantasy
1/27/2016 6:14pm
mx836 wrote:
Trek has been 3D printing titanium bicycle parts for years. Get with the times people.
Do you know if Trek has their own printers or they source to a specialty vendor?
T-MAC
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1/28/2016 1:18pm
mx836 wrote:
Trek has been 3D printing titanium bicycle parts for years. Get with the times people.
Joko wrote:
Do you know if Trek has their own printers or they source to a specialty vendor?
Trek does utilize 3D printing for prototyping, they have several stratasys machines. I'm not sure Trek has been 3D printing titanium bike parts for years. I haven't heard of them printing any titanium bike parts, but I do know stratasys loves using Trek for promotional use case stuff.
NotCore
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1/28/2016 1:28pm
NotCore wrote:
A CNC machine is a type of 3D printing, and there are many applications for that in moto. Look to JGR. What you may be thinking...
A CNC machine is a type of 3D printing, and there are many applications for that in moto. Look to JGR. What you may be thinking of is Additive manufacturing. Initially in plastics, but also in metals, food and other materials. This is what will change the world.
T-MAC wrote:
What? 3DP is the opposite of CNC. CNC is subtractive mfg, 3DP is addictive mfg.
Semantics. two sides, same coin. What medical device company do you work for? Intuitive?
seth505
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1/28/2016 1:34pm
NotCore wrote:
A CNC machine is a type of 3D printing, and there are many applications for that in moto. Look to JGR. What you may be thinking...
A CNC machine is a type of 3D printing, and there are many applications for that in moto. Look to JGR. What you may be thinking of is Additive manufacturing. Initially in plastics, but also in metals, food and other materials. This is what will change the world.
T-MAC wrote:
What? 3DP is the opposite of CNC. CNC is subtractive mfg, 3DP is addictive mfg.
NotCore wrote:
Semantics. two sides, same coin. What medical device company do you work for? Intuitive?
CNC milling would create a coin by starting with a billet block of material and machining it down. A 3D metal printer would start with a plate and nothing on it and build the coin layer by layer (40 microns or so at a time). One is additive and one isn't.
TeamGreen
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1/28/2016 1:44pm
T-MAC wrote:
What? 3DP is the opposite of CNC. CNC is subtractive mfg, 3DP is addictive mfg.
NotCore wrote:
Semantics. two sides, same coin. What medical device company do you work for? Intuitive?
seth505 wrote:
CNC milling would create a coin by starting with a billet block of material and machining it down. A 3D metal printer would start with a...
CNC milling would create a coin by starting with a billet block of material and machining it down. A 3D metal printer would start with a plate and nothing on it and build the coin layer by layer (40 microns or so at a time). One is additive and one isn't.
What might be getting "lost in translation" is that the media (the actual material) cost combined with Capital Equipment costs for theses processes is still extremely high (Referring to exotic metals and alloys and the machines that make solids from them).
philG
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1/28/2016 2:33pm
The kit we use to check printed stuff is £350000. And that isnt dimensional.
DAG
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1/28/2016 2:45pm
Most decent sub $3K printers (Utilamaker) can print to tighter than. 2mm which is standard error for most machine shops so for most mx parts that is certainly acceptable. Materials are widening as wellfor these printers. Hose guides would certainly be better made with nylon which is widely available now for about $60 a roll that would make plenty of "bits".
philG
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1/28/2016 3:25pm
DAG wrote:
Most decent sub $3K printers (Utilamaker) can print to tighter than. 2mm which is standard error for most machine shops so for most mx parts that...
Most decent sub $3K printers (Utilamaker) can print to tighter than. 2mm which is standard error for most machine shops so for most mx parts that is certainly acceptable. Materials are widening as wellfor these printers. Hose guides would certainly be better made with nylon which is widely available now for about $60 a roll that would make plenty of "bits".
They might be able to print to 0.2mm but without the proper techniques, the distortion is much higher than that.

I could buy every peice of plastic i will ever need for $3k, and have enough to have a good holiday.

For prototyping and development its a huge advantage in cost of time and tooling, no doubt , but there isnt a single bit of an MX bike that i would swap for something printed .

If you look at some of the stuff on YouTube , something like a mudguard would take 50 hours to print, and it would look shit into the bargain.

Dont get me wrong, printing has huge potential, but i dont think MX has the need for it , nor will it have. Parts are not intricate enough, or even difficult to make , and 5 Axis machining these days is easy come by, so the cost savings arent going to be enough to justify the huge investment.
1/28/2016 6:48pm
We have some 3D printed stainless steel steam jets that we have tested about a year ago in the technology facility I work in. It's more of a 3D laser welding process.

We wanted to test some port designs that couldn't be machined into a solid piece, They are interesting, but the ports had to be extrude honed and the exterior machined to get the desired finish. The raw print slug has a very rough texture. Basically about a million sheets of foil fused together.

After it was all said and done, we figured we could have built the same thing in lost investment castings for less money and had a desirable surface finish right from the mold.

We have used some 3D printed plastic parts for prototyping from CAD drawings, just for fit and design checks before they final parts are machined, that has worked out well for us. But, I have yet to see any that was good enough to use in industry, straight from the printer.

It appears it will be some time before anybody has to worry about getting put out of business buy 3D printing.
mx836
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1/28/2016 7:09pm
mx836 wrote:
Trek has been 3D printing titanium bicycle parts for years. Get with the times people.
Joko wrote:
Do you know if Trek has their own printers or they source to a specialty vendor?
They have their own I believe. I watched some videos on it a long time ago. They may have just been doing rapid prototyping at that time.
mx836
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1/28/2016 7:11pm
T-MAC wrote:
Trek does utilize 3D printing for prototyping, they have several stratasys machines. I'm not sure Trek has been 3D printing titanium bike parts for years. I...
Trek does utilize 3D printing for prototyping, they have several stratasys machines. I'm not sure Trek has been 3D printing titanium bike parts for years. I haven't heard of them printing any titanium bike parts, but I do know stratasys loves using Trek for promotional use case stuff.
I believe you are correct. It came to me after I posted. The videos I watched on it a few years ago were just in the prototyping stages.
philG
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1/29/2016 3:15am
We have some 3D printed stainless steel steam jets that we have tested about a year ago in the technology facility I work in. It's more...
We have some 3D printed stainless steel steam jets that we have tested about a year ago in the technology facility I work in. It's more of a 3D laser welding process.

We wanted to test some port designs that couldn't be machined into a solid piece, They are interesting, but the ports had to be extrude honed and the exterior machined to get the desired finish. The raw print slug has a very rough texture. Basically about a million sheets of foil fused together.

After it was all said and done, we figured we could have built the same thing in lost investment castings for less money and had a desirable surface finish right from the mold.

We have used some 3D printed plastic parts for prototyping from CAD drawings, just for fit and design checks before they final parts are machined, that has worked out well for us. But, I have yet to see any that was good enough to use in industry, straight from the printer.

It appears it will be some time before anybody has to worry about getting put out of business buy 3D printing.
Do you have your own on site CT scanners for this , or do you farm it out
SCAM124
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1/29/2016 6:06am
I'm in the auto biz (Tier 1 R&D) and prototype tons of shit. I ran across these guys at CES. https://markforged.com/
They are impregnating layers of carbon into the build up. Certain strength characteristics are as high as aluminum.

Our parts are a little bigger than the current size of printer they have available. But I'm seriously considering buying one of these to futz with small stuff.





indy_maico
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1/29/2016 6:24am
ocscottie wrote:
3D printing is commonly used in F1, many teams feel it will be the future and they will be able to print replacement parts trackside in...
3D printing is commonly used in F1, many teams feel it will be the future and they will be able to print replacement parts trackside in the near future.
philG wrote:
3d printing in F1 is almost exclusively used for the wind tunnel side of the business, I would not expect any F1 team to print anything...
3d printing in F1 is almost exclusively used for the wind tunnel side of the business,

I would not expect any F1 team to print anything metal , and put it on the car at the track, the quality procedures simply dont allow it , its one thing crack testing existing parts in the back of a truck , but having portable Xray kit .. not likely.

I have known race engineers not fit parts because they didnt like the way they looked, despite being completely to spec and still having less than half-life on them
philG is correct.

I used to work for Reynard, which started the BAR team that morphed into what is now Mercedes.

The very first show cars that were done well in advance of the real cars were built with a lot of 3D printed parts.
I was in Brackley when they were assembling them and the gearbox looked lke the real thing and it was completely 3D printed.

I'm now at Dallara in Indy, and we needed to make a change to the fuel funnel fairing where the guys insert the fuel probe to fill the car.

We had to create a new shape because it needed a more gradual lead-in to clear the guys' hands on the probe.

We 3d printed the new shape in reverse, then used that part to create a mould to manufacture the real parts in carbon fibre.

It really cut down on the time and expense that it would have taken to machine a master to pull the mould from.

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