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Wait now you’re on my team?! Rabbit season! Duck season!
I was never against you, just wanted to help provide better appreciation for the nuanced relationship between the risks of Obstacles vs risks of Speed.
looks like Timo deleted his post about MSRP on Honda CR250 and inflation and perception of "expensive" but this is what I dug up:
1973 (1st year) CR250M Honda Elsinore MSRP $1195.00; US inflation rate 8.71%
2027 CRF Honda 250 (not WE) MSRP $8390.00; US inflation rate 2025 (last full year recorded) 2.6%
someone with more math/stats/analytical skills than me can probably extrapolate relative value over time, etc. 😉
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How much was an IPhone back then?
An iphone 17 pro max would have been $153.38
The AMA needs to do something to help out with places to ride. All they need to do is organize people and I think most people are willing to help the local tracks but there is no one out there as a real leader for the dirt bike community. The membership should come with some voting rights and your own influence over AMA funds. There could be local chapters of AMA that can just get organized for track owners, track workers and funds. In the whole dirt bike community of people who actually ride very few people race and even fewer people race ama events. I I knew my money was actually going towards real riding areas I would be heavily involved.
There could be local presidents of each district and bylaws and voting rights much like a labor union.
who said that besides you?.....there was a post that was sort of disparaging vets and all i pointed out was those are the guys track owners should be listening to because they are the ones spending the money. without them tracks disappear. now that you may have a better understanding of what i posted, don't you think your reply was stupid?
I'm generally in agreement that tracks focused on amateurs should be relatively forgiving. That said, there is nothing wrong with a track owner building a full blown pro track with steep jumps and tight rhythms. It's your responsibility as a rider and/or parent to determine if a track is safe enough for you/your rider. If you aren't comfortable with the track design then don't ride. Don't bust your ass and then go out and sue the track because you crashed on a track you knew had obstacles you deemed dangerous. Absent gross negligence (parking a dozer on the landing of a jump) there shouldn't' be lawsuits against track owners for injuries suffered while riding. Motocross is one of, if not the most, dangerous sport out there, injuries will happen, and 99% of the time that injury is on the rider.
Of course it’s a free country but we’re discussing how to improve local riding and racing and get more people riding. Building a pro level track than punishes and quite literally breaks the riders isn’t a great way to get repeat customers.
Track owners will change their tracks if riders tell them they won't ride their aggressive layouts and stop showing up.
And it’s my opinion it’s happened and they haven’t responded. How many of us know folks who used to ride and aren’t willing to take the risk the current tracks ask of us? How many have gone to off road because the tracks are all jump infested? How many more could we get into it if the tracks rewarded you and encourage you instead of punish you?
I don't know anyone who stopped riding mx as a result of track layouts. Regardless, my point was that owners should not face civil liability as a result of track layout. That lawsuit brought by the EKS guy was referenced and that was bs that led to the closure of that track if I'm not mistaken.
Regardless if it’s right or wrong, they could have made that berm safer. Use your head reduce your risk exposure, keep your customers safe, and keep them coming back.
I read through it and from what I remember it was a tall banked berm and on the back side was a sharp drop off. Taper that shit. Just building obstacles isn’t enough. Not with 65 hp 450s and 45-55hp 250s and paddle tires and everything else.
Yeah yeah the throttle goes both ways…
“QUIT SUING TRACKS”!
Did you hear that, Rich Taylor?
Not sure of your point, I am a vet paying all the bills for myself and my kids to race? The ones always complaining are the heros that go full spastic for 2 laps then get tired so instead of toning it down a notch or working on fitness they get the races shortened.
This would be valid IF wages had kept up with inflation. Conveniently, there's no calculator for that...but the middle class in the U.S. is a mere shadow of what it was in 1973. That's where the disconnect falls.
Lack of places to ride is the biggest problem and it is only going to get worse. The high cost of bikes is 2nd.
Pit Row
What about all the parents that are paying their kids entry fees so they can advance to higher levels of the sport?
When the kids on 50s through superminis are entering 3-4 classes per race day vs your average vet that’s riding 1 or 2, who is a better source of revenue per rider for the track owner?
i don't think the track owners are listening to the kids.....what's your point?
Was typing over lunch and got a call, trying to answer I posted mid sentence, thought I deleted it fairly quickly but not fast enough apparently.
1973 cr250r in today's price is $89xx.xx within $900 of a crf450r.
For fun the first two years of the yz250 were limited runs, kinda like SR or WE models. Adjusted for inflation it was $13,xxx.xx in 1974, the regular yz250 came out in 76 and would be $7260.00 today. MSRP of a 26 is $8099.00, so within $1,000 and you're getting a way better bike.
The cost of bikes isn't what's killing moto, it's the cost of everything else. Trucks that are $75,000 pulling $70,000 5th wheel RVs. $1000.00 phones in everyone's pockets, TV's in every room, thousands of dollars in video games and home movies, $600,000.00 houses, $100 a month in streaming, $150 in home Internet, $300 a month in phone lines for your family, $15,000 e-mtb's, ect. It's everyone chasing the dream, but loosing site of what really matters. All you need is a beater pickup, new bike, and some gas money...
Most vet riders are on the heavie side and they go just as fast on basically any full size bike...the rider is the deciding factor. Unless you're a solid local intermediate (most vet guys aren't) the bike is the least of your worries most of the time.
totally agree with your last paragraph. That's what I was calling out; people complaining bikes/the sport was "too expensive" when reality is they are making personal choices spending big $ and using credit to buy/enjoy things that aren't necessities or smart purchases to support a way of living to "keep up with the Joneses' " as they used to say in my formative years of 1960's, 70's, 80's. That is a recipe for disaster long term and has to be intentionally avoided and worked around as a way of life to get ahead or at least tread water comfortably these days, IMO.
The FOMO and YOLO followers might disagree with me 😉
Somewhat true, I agree, I used to agree 100% with what you’re saying but since 2020 is a WALL. Before 2020 you could live smart, live frugal and buy a house on one salary ( one strong salary)
After 2020 especially since 2022 you really can’t do it anymore. If you are entering the housing market with a reasonable savings for a down payment first time home buyer starting out with a family type scenario, it’s insanely tough now.
Anyone who bought before 2022 take another look at the numbers, put yourself in that situation, not with your insanely inflated 401k and house you bought in 1980 that’s up 5x since then.
Like imagine you make 90k, have 40k saved, have a new baby, and you want your wife to stay at home. New house payment is 3 grand a month.
90k income after modest contributions, health insurance , taxes is 4000 a month.
1000 a month left over. Diapers, formula, car insurance , lights, internet, food, gas to your high paying job, car maintenance, cable or some streaming service, are we doing anything at all for fun?, etc etc
You think 1000 after housing per month is doable? 250 per week. 250 per week to pay for all that stuff.
That’s not a single extravagant purchase yet. That’s not a car payment, that’s not full coverage insurance on a newer car,
Throw in a single $600 a month car payment and then insurance (600 car payment is fairly modest anymore) and there’s effective no margin at all.
That’s buying an average house in the average suburbs to be close enough to a decent job that pays 90k per year, to provide for a stay at home family that was incredibly common in the 70s 80s etc
These are real world numbers too. My friends and I are the age that is just starting out or have been for a little while.
Interest rates on houses went from 2.5-3.5% range to 5.5-8% while prices increased like a run away train. So even if prices stayed the same (they didn’t) houses got much less affordable/l. Add the cost of insurance, taxes, everything going up like a rocket, life is not the same for folks starting out now, that it is for any of us who owned their house prior to 2022 trust me.
Anyway off topic but it’s a huge topic still.
And honestly I low balled those estimates a bit.
Look up the average house price today it’s 436k
The scenario i said, new family starting out 40k downpayment their payment will be well over 3k
So basically impossible to start out have a new baby and buy a house. Or buy a house and plan to have a baby shortly after.
It’s basically impossible.
Which leads to why some generations are yolo-ing their money away on vacations and mocha latte experiences because what’s been told to them is a lie and impossible to achieve any semblance of the American dream for themselves.
It’ll take 2-3 income both people working maybe a second job, kid in day care, no free time to actually make ends meet.
So yeah no dirtbike money leftover, it buying a house and having a family is on the list: now add in most folks have college debt that everyone told them is the way to go and will help them, they probably have a car loan because everyone told them to buy something reliable. Now it’s quite literally almost impossible without being in a top field and being super industrious to just own a suburban house and raise a family.
Rant over lol
you're trying to compare "the way it used to be" vs. what is reality now. There were rules and suggestions and paths to live by back then and while it never GUARANTEED success or happiness back then you buckled down, worked hard, delayed gratification and hoped for the best. Figure out what your own rules are to live by for this generation and do your best. I can tell you from personal experience my wife and I both chose not to have a family and denied ourselves pleasures to contribute as much as possible to 401ks offered at work and bought fixer upper homes in not great areas to start with and worked to improve our situation over time. We had no concept of the stock market boosting those savings plans to try to become 401k millionaires, huge housing market appreciation profits or any such fantasies and just tried to be smart about choices that we hoped would provide a decent lifestyle when we retired. A lot of it is luck, but smart planning for decades into your future turned out to be the ticket for us. That and leaving our San Diego home and lifestyle of 50+ years for a more affordable part of the country was instrumental as well.
Yeah dude, 2 incomes and no kids you would succeed no matter what. Like I said put yourself in the actual shoes of a realistic average scenario if not an optimistic scenario..
Say you’re 24 making 90k a year with zero debt and 40k cash in the bank. You got the love of your life pregnant it’s time to buy an average house in the average suburbs that the average person has always done:
Oh wait even making 90k a year and no debt you literally can’t afford a house.
In what universe is that ok?
That’s not what it’s been for Americans, up until late/
It’s sad.
But yeah I’m happy for you and your wife and I’m going to figure it out for myself and my family like you said, but it’s not as simple as cutting out luxuries and soy lattes like your prior sentiment suggested.
It’s way worse than that.
I’m all for heatwave racing. It’s gnarly and it’s not that hot honestly.
We don’t run marathons in the summer though lol
RD this isn’t an attack but it’s hard to put yourself in a different position.
Another part of your perspective that really won’t apply is that line:
“A lot of it is luck, but smart planning for decades into your future turned out to be the ticket for us. That and leaving our San Diego home and lifestyle of 50+ years for a more affordable part of the country was instrumental as well.”
So you lived and worked in an incredibly high cost of living and high paying area. Then when your property value was I’m guessing incredibly high due to the exact inflation and issues in describing, you sold it for top dollar, took your 401ks that have done insanely well and moved to middle of nowhere for 1/3 the cost and 3x the property with 1/10th the taxes.
Thats all just a guess on how it went but it’s fairly realistic based on what everyone has done, but that’s exactly what the folks who are starting out won’t have. Like I said, truly try to imagine making 90k at 24 and wanting to buy a house. Who the heck makes 90k at 24 anyway.
I've BEEN in a different position most of my life: 1st paying job @ age 16 for $1.75/hr in 1974 living with parents. Got my own place 1980 working full time and going to community college and rented a studio apartment subsidized for Seniors. Had friends with parents helping them buy their 1st houses. Not mine! Marriage, kids, buying house were not on my radar at all. Wasn't until 1987 (age 29) I could start establishing credit buying a Ford Ranger through affordable company credit union loan making $8.75/hr. Was renting rooms or low budget apts in bad parts of town. Kept working and going to college and by 1992 thought about maybe affording a condo. Nobody in my situation was looking to buy a house and raise a family at age 24 with single income. Life isn't fair...
So you identified your problem of not being able to buy a house and start a family so young- what are you going to do about it?
So you didn’t take the time to really explore that scenario.
Check.
As far as me, I told you, I will provide for my family and we will make it. But it’s way harder than cutting out luxuries like you’re saying.
The scenario I painted shows that, but you won’t take the time to look at a perspective other than your lived experience.
It’s ok, I appreciate the conversation, and I’m honestly glad for you. You guys are living the dream and broke out of the rat race, it’s commendable!!
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