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We don't have to change the displacement rules at all, just change the noise rules and implement a real-world, full-throttle noise standard, that should be enough to make 2-strokes more competitive. Who knows, maybe we could hear the race announcers again.
People only see the numbers being the same, or the displacement as the end all be all. Thats like my Vette with a procharger being equal to a bone stock vette simply because the displacement is the same. However, HOW they make they power is different.
FTE, your posts are about as unbiased as they come. Great job!
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The time frame is already there on a race weekend as it would occupy the same time slots as the WMA classes do.
Since it would be sort of an "experimental" class to test the waters, drop the homologation rules for the class and allow the OEM's to bring over enough 125's to fill the demand. TM, Husky, KTM and some of thos cottage industry Euro names that are popping up would be cool to see at a top level event here in the US. Maybe, just maybe Cobra has a 125 in the works??? There was rumor of that a few months back. Would Pro-Circuit show up and dominate? Who knows, but another AMA rule says a bike can't be over five years old. That puts the KX's pretty close to being ineligible. Might be good to drop that rule too. Regardless I would love to hear a full gate of tiddlers at full song.
Funny how things come around isn't it? Now we seem forced to ride 4 strokes and development has slowed or stopped on 2 strokes! I for one do not have a tear to shed as i have always been a 4 stroke guy and love everything about them! The idea of getting a new or better bike for me has always been to make racing easier and me faster.. that's the bottom line for me and i think i speak for most racers out there.
If you ask around at the track, most would never go back to a two stroke unless it made winning easier, simple as that! I am in one of the largest AMA districts in the USA and we can run what we want in the 250 class or the vet classes. Guess what all but maybe two or three people run competitively in the A classes?? Yep that's right we run what works best and wins races..
True old schoolers are 4 stroke guys!
There's a lot going on here, love of smokers, concern for entry level riders, and how to deal with the different resources available to the 40/20 guys on the gate. There's other issues, too. I think it helps not to conflate them.
A two stroke is just machine and I don't think it's apt to talk about fairness to two strokes. The fairness issue really is the issue of what's fair in racing where there's a disparity of resources between one rider and another.
There's always going to be a disparity of resources in racing, and better talent will almost always attract more resources. You can't escape that.
Saying the two stroke is an answer or one of many answers to that at the pro level, which is all we're talking about, just chases the problem. If the 250 smoker is so much better than the 250F that it is an inexpensive path to the sort of power PC or FC has, then there is nothing to stop the teams with more resources from exploiting that to continue stretching their advantage.
Can two strokes be a means of giving privateers a leg up on the cost of performance issue? Sure. Do the current displacement rules enable that? Obviously not; no one races two strokes competitively. Would a 150/300 rule be better? Maybe/probably. But then you run into the practical issues with the other OEM's. They'd likely view it as the KTM variant of the "Harley rules" in flat track and the "Ducati rules" in superbike a few years ago; it favors a brand rather than a class of riders scratching it out.
There's a similar thing going on with the 350, which is in the class of four strokes folks believe the OEM's are committed to. The FIM pushed to drop the 450 class to 350, and the other OEM's said no. KTM has come out with the 350, and I think you have to say the jury's out on how successful that investment has been so far.
I don't know what the answer is until the day the sport doesn't need as much OEM money as it does now.
250F/180T
450F/360T
Adjust if needed.
Why in this difficult economy wouldn't the caretakers of the sport make some provisions to lower the skyrocketing cost to go racing.? Other forms of racing have been doing it for quite some time.
Do the aftermarket companies have that much influence over the governing body?
The only conclusion I can draw is they just don't give a crap so long as they get enough riders to show up at each race. This indifference IMO fuels the fire of aggravated enthusiasts no matter what strokes you like.
The bottom line is, until Honda, Kaw and Suz believe that selling 2 strokes again is going to be profitable, they're going to stay with 4 strokes.
For them, it really is all about the money.
Even though there is some demand for them, I think if all the OEM's had them, you'd see a lot of unsold 2 strokes on the showroom floors. And that's the last thing they want after the last couple of years of trying to clear out 2 and 3 year old mx bikes.
I do agree, it would be nice to have 125s and 250s available. But while the few that are out there seem to sell fast in some areas, I feel some are overestimating the demand.
As far as the pros go, there's more than a few forces at work there, I'm going to trust DC on this one.
He's done one hell of a job improving the Nats since he's been in charge!!
I'm not saying we need to become NASCAR, but a move in that direction might help.
But, as always, I could be wrong!
Sure a kid can buy a bike and ride on his uncles land......supporting a racing habit every weekend is different and thats what I was talking about because thats what the guys were talking about when they said kids used go racing simply by "mowing yards."
I find it hard to believe that anyone has done that since the 70's. This stuff has been getting more expensive for a long time. I don't know the answer, but bringing back 2 strokes is not going to make us all sing the Sesame Street song. Some of the cost may go down, but the bikes will still cost 6-7000$. ........and how long til they put fuel injection on those 2 strokes.....it will happen...you can't stop the march on of technology......
With 2 strokes it was OK as a port job did not break the bank.
Pit Row
4 races. 2 at a West Coast National. 2 at a East Coast National.
1 East Champion, 1 West. I think initially running a nation wide 6 race series is too much to bite off. Winners get a full page picture and interview in the mag…benefiting sponsors.
They should run on non WMA weekends and fill their time slot.
The cc limit is 144. (otherwise everyone’s going to cheat and cause complications) It would be dumb to exclude KTM’s or any of the Japanese 125’s that have been overbored. Absolutely drop the homologation rule.
Can we guarantee 30 upper level rider capable of putting on a show? It has to look professional. The gate needs to be close to full. It can’t be Novice riders on 10 year old bikes.
WMA riders should be allowed to compete (given of course that they are on a 2 stroke) I don’t know if setting a certain age limit should be in effect either. Try to keep it as broad as possible to encourage participation. How about anyone who has ever scored National or SX points or made a main can’t compete.
Can we get sponsors to support it? Would the manufactures support it? Would Yamaha, KTM, or Husky commit to having a few riders on their machines at each event? If they feel there is potential to make money they will. How many 3 year old 4 strokes do they have to have sitting on their dealers floors before they decide….hmmmmm……maybe we need to reevaluate.
YAMAHA YZ250 VERSUS YAMAHA YZ250F
Q: WHICH BIKE PRODUCES THE BEST LAP TIMES?
A: Although MXA had a wide range of test riders spend time on both bikes, we left all lap time testing to a single test rider. We picked a 20-something Intermediate test rider because he was old enough to have raced a 250cc two-stroke and yet not immune to the charms of a four-stroke.
When we examined his lap times, taken from actual races not hot laps, we weren’t surprised to discover that his laps times on both the two-stroke and four-stroke were almost identical. Read that again. His lap times were identical regardless of which bike he was on. Across the board, if an MXA test rider could turn in a 2:35 on the YZ250, he could back it up with a 2:35 on the YZ250F in the next moto.
source: MXA
This thread made an impression on one of the most powerful men in Moto. We didn't win him over yet, but the fact that he couldn't help but notice is a start.
I remember a couple of years ago when DC first took over that he was really considering allowing the two strokes to be included in the lights program outdoors. His opinion has since gone the other way, but if enough of us get together on this just maybe we can change his way of thinking again.
I would be super happy if they brought back the 500's for a universal AMA/FIM genuine outdoor GP series, which would run AFTER the SX series..
So what does that article have to do with that? My recollection is that it stated that it takes more skill to extract all of the power of a 250 smoker and that 250 bangers were easier for less skilled riders to go fast one.
My "fairness" point is that fairness is an human concept that relates to people, not an inanimate machine. It was in response to a question whether I thought the displacement rules were "fair" to two strokes. Let's keep the fairness notion focused where it belongs. Machines are an instrumentality, not the main point. If the issue is problems with fairness for professional privateers with limited resources, that's a lot bigger problem that "two stroke fairness." Changing the displacement rules to better suit two strokes may be a means to that end, but it's not an end in itself for the sake of the two stroke ethic.
then hold a gun to the heads to the manufacturers! it is very smiple.
read....DC and MX Sports.......
thats easy.....its a 4 stroke!!!
Harley rules became Buell rules in AMA road racing as well. Where else could you race a 1400cc twin against a 600cc 4 cyl. (both 4 stroke, might I add.)
The point is that this isn't really comparable. MotoGP went through a period that had 2 and four strokes together, as did motocross and supercross. However, they were never really equal.
The manufacturers self regulate. Honda left the board in DMG road racing because they were racing against 1400cc Buells. They have since made changes, but the reputation is forever damaged. If anyone has the resources to make a racebike, it is Harley. The Jap companies self regulate, it is a pretty good thing.
Again I say that it doesn't matter if the bike has 2 strokes or 4. The best way to keep any type of racing fair is have them all similar.
amen, brother, amen!!!!!
Post a reply to: Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes