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But, the tin hat theory is certainly more fun than the facts.......
If you are saying that the timing is too "advanced" for this revolution, then you're "retarded"!!!
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"Really though Steve, when was the last time you tried to race a full season on the Am-level in the Vet C class? My guess is that for most of us, it would "break the bank"."
Do you really think the increase in cost is 4 stroke related? I'm sure th
My costs haven't gone up any since I switched to 4 strokes about 4 years ago. I get somewhere around 80 - 100 hours on my CRF450s with only valve adjustments (those cost about $30) and normal oil changes every 8 - 10 hours. Top ends are about $400 (v. $250 on my 2 stroke bike) and I've been lucky enough not to lose a crank. My dad rides a bit easier and he went 165 hours without anything more than valve adjustments on his CRF450X. Gas, tires and entry fees cost more than any maintenance. What brand of 4 stroke have you guys been riding? You must be riding them like Barcia or you're waaaayyyy faster than I am.
Plus, the market for 1 or 2 year old bikes is awesome. For around $4000, you can pick up a bike with less than 30 hours, ride it a couple of years and sell it for $3000.
And after that I was slightly mean. I retract my statement.
All the 4 stroke lovers can come up with is how 450's don't require loads of maintainance. I'm not sure I've ever heard too many non 4 stroke lovers complain about those costs either. But how much went into upkeep on a 500 2 stroke? The open class has always had a way of leveling the playing field between the have's and the have nots. Switch your line of thought to the 250F though and most people have a different story to tell. I had two relatively low hour, very well maintained 250F's scatter. No such thing as a $400.00 top end when one of those goes south. Add a 2 before that 400 . No more of them for me, and no way in hell would I pay good money for a used 250F. That's just not thinking straight there. As far as I'm concerned there are not many good used 250F's out there, only a lot of good used parts bikes.
Oh, and I believe that Mitch guy said it costs four times as much to run their 250F program versus their 125 program. But then again, what does he know.....
I'll be more than happy to ride a Euro or another Asian countries bike. As long as its affordable, reliable and competitive then I dont give a rats ass if Kim Jong il made it himself using his mothers milk for assembly lube.
If the OEM's are treading water selling leftover 450's @ $4300 then there's obviously profit to be made (and was made) when they were selling those same 08's and 09's for $7-8k. They didn't feel bad making a buck off us, but everyone cries likes its armageddon when they're struggling. It's business and only the strong adapt and prosper. Someone is making money in this economy.... someone is always making money. Just need to open your years and listen to public demand.
Q: WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF A TWO-STROKE OVER A FOUR-STROKE?
A: It goes without saying that if displacements were the same, a two-stroke would be ten pounds lighter, ten horsepower more powerful and ten times cheaper to maintain than a four-stroke. But the displacements aren’t the same. Given the unequal nature of the competition, here is where a two-stroke shines.
(1) Price. The retail price of a 2009 Yamaha YZ250 is $800 less than a YZ450F.
(2) Maintenance. When it comes to rebuilding the top-end of a YZ250, all it requires are a piston, rings and gaskets. Rebuilding a YZ450F takes a piston, rings, gaskets, valve seals and a cam chain (plus the potential for valves, valve springs, keepers and valve seats). On the dollar scale, a four-stroke piston costs more than a complete two-stroke rebuild.
Motocross bikes are race machines built to conform to a specific set of class rules. Why would they build additional machines to race in the same class?
The theme we should be focusing on is what can we do now to impact the sport positively and not five years from now. Couple of months ago I was dwelling on this subject and came up with MX at the crossroads on Motonews which started off as my venting (again) about tracks today being unnecessarily unsafe but by the end of the article it turned into a plug for getting into vintage MX racing. BTW have to give props for those who contributed including newmann. Thanks Joe!
Dollar for dollar you can't beat vintage racing....just make sure you drop money on redoing the suspension BEFORE you ride those things.
if there are any Namur fans here I used the most bitchin' picture of Namur I've ever seen on the Internet. Like to give the photographer props but I am having CRS right now on his name.
If this is such a big deal you, I think you seriously need to ask yourself how much you really ride. Maybe you spend more whining about other things in your life when you could be out riding some sweet dirt bike.... 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
btw- your argument about pro racing is funny. You want to flip an entire industry upside down....just because YOU like the sound better?
Pit Row
People like you - who ridiculously slant their point / argument - drive the rest of us crazy.
Let us all know when you can say you actually comprehend the many and various factors that have led the sport to where it is today.
2) THE USA GOVERNMENT DOESNT WANT 2 STROKES........HELLLOOOOO CAN YOU HERE ME KNOW? THE USA GOVERNMENT DOESNT WANT 2 STROKES.....ITS THE GOVERNMENT NOT THE INDUSTRY......YOU SEE ANY 2 STROKE STREET BIKES LATELY?
3) helllllllo....its not the industry!
Say you have some money and ok credit - and want to get a motorcycle for the only goal of having fun...and no idea about motocross, street bikes, or anything two wheels other than you want one.
You go to the dealer - and the salesman looks at you, and says you need a 450 if you are going to ride moto (they all say this). He tells you a new one will run you 9k OTD.
You look at a 600 sport bike. He says it will run you 10.5 OTD.
You ask about where you can ride - and he infroms you the moto bike requires you to probably go to either a track, or ranch etc...
But the sport bike is legal to ride on the road off the showroom.
Decision time - what do you buy?
At a price difference of 1.5k - you look at what you getting.. A bike with 1 cylinder, or a bike with 4.
The street bike can also double as transportation if need be (big point)
And you can ride the streetbike anywhere (except offroad..)
I think the avg joe has an easy decision to make! Streetbike!
Now if you want to go racing - no doubt the dirtbike is much cheaper to get into...
But let's face it - 9k gets you toy - 10.5k gets you transportation AND a toy.
I have seen 450s. if maintained properly (Oil change after every ride and air filter service) Last well over 100 hours with no issues.
You ride them to last they will last. People who twist the throttle at the starting line like they are trying to blow the oil out of the bottom end of a two-stroke have issues. You keep bouncing them off the rev limiter with no load and they will fall apart. You rev the snot out of them in the air over every jump or land with the throttle pinned they hit the limiter they will not last,
If we all rode 48 hp 450s they would last longer - yet we all want faster and faster bikes that have to be pushed further and further each year to make us happy and want to buy one.
Quality has gotten way better since '98 but performance has also jumped 10-fold.
A well maintained 4t should last 100 hours if they are taken care of, maintained and ridden properly. Keep them stock and you will see how long they last. Hop them up with cams, pistons, exhaust and ignitions and watch them Explode. Isn't that a ACDC song?
I love two-strokes and the rules need to be changed to allow 250s in the 250 class and maybe 350 two-strokes in the 450 class. I also think that the displacement should be cut to 400cc. Easy for the OEMs to do.
As for the future, I doubt we will be seeing the evolution of the bikes continue as the speed they did. You have to understand that when a new model is released, the project was started 5-6 years prior to the public seeing the bike. Meaning the '10 YZ250, '09 CR450R and so on were designed probably starting in 2005 or before.
For the next five years I doubt we will see any "ALL NEW" motocross bikes. The tooling alone is so expensive to make they have to build enough bikes using the tooling to make a bike profitable. Now with sales down it will take more years of a single model before they can design a new bike with new tooling.
Lots of "Bold New Graphics" with minor upgrades in the future
Even if Honda for example, wanted to build a new CR250 Two-Stroke, the cost to design, build, test and manufacture is not possible based on projected sales.
I am done
You know, I started this after reading that Yamaha of Troy was closing. Here is a company that has been around a long time and during its time has provided many riders with career opportunities over the years. I guess I became mad at the factories and the 4-stroke thing. The closing of Yamaha of Troy may or may not have been attributed to the Big 4, but they are dictating to us what we buy and ride regardless of our economy.
Okay, I'm done.
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