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It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react. It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf. It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries. It's physics. Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.
Man if we could have something like the old 100cc class. Full size bikes with just barely enough power to go fast if you could keep your speed up and keep the engine singing.
I sure hope something changes so I can go racing with my grandchildren. It pains me to think that as it is right now I would steer them clear from it. Effin sucks!
At what point does it become the rider’s responsibility to look out for self-preservation?
Just because the machinery is capable, doesn’t mean you can just climb aboard & go balls out.
An element of the competition, & in fact an element of becoming a professional is looking out for your well being, & being able to stay healthy and ‘stack blocks’ along your training journey will help more than time spent recovering on the couch.
There is usually only one person to blame for riders getting injured- and that’s the guy twisting the throttle.
‘Guns don’t kill people, people do..’
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IMO that’s due to the riders in the class.
The ‘elitist’ of the elite have moved in to 450s & so the 250s is left with the (lesser) elites. (With respect) who are all of a closer ability/speed.
Definitely a cumulative effect IMO, with the majority of the blame pie falling on the rider and people at the track.
That being said, I do think the bikes play a role too. Nobody needs a 450 unless you're at the pinnacle of the sport. A 14 year old shouldn't be on a 250F unless their skill level is high and their body is ready for it. I've seen so many crashes throughout the years that were made worse by the bike out matching the riders ability. A few of those crashes happened to close friends, and it ended their riding career. Would they have crashed on a different size bike? Probably. But in every case it was worse than it should have been.
We can't continue to lose riders (and tracks) due to shit like this. Especially vet guys. They have enough money to keep the aftermarket and OEMs alive, and pass on what we love on to our kids.
Maybe it's time to improve and bulk up our outer protection, and who cares if its uncomfortable, make it mandatory. Look how thin everyone looks even with their "under protectors" on. NFL has huge padding and motocross riders hit the ground way harder than they do.
We need a bike to transition from mini to full size bikes. If they stay 4 stroke may be a 150.
I my self would like the AMA and FIM go with 150cc / 300cc 4 strokes for SX and out doors. The only problem with a change like this is the 150cc bikes would be time bombs and cost a fortune to keep running
Gravity is not going away.
Changing the bikes, tracks, displacement, speed, rider ability, weather, flaggers, or any of the other variables are never ending arguments and opinions - yet NONE of them negate gravity or prevent riders from hitting the ground.
The only answer that attempts to solve for gravity is more protection for riders today, and better protection being invented for tomorrow.
You must do all that you can to protect your head, neck, and vital organs. Wear the best helmets. Wear the best neck braces. Wear the best chest protectors. Those are the 3 most important pieces of safety equipment on the planet, designed specifically for those critical areas of the body.
Protect accordingly.
It's not just about this one incident.
4 strokes, due to ease of ridability and the nature of the motor have led to more catastrophic crashes. Period. That's not even up for debate.
Hell, Brent had to delete his posts because he proved that point when he was trying to prove the opposite point. "We need 450s because they allow old Vets like me to do jumps we have no business doing." Is the exact fucking reason we don't need 450s.
Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:
TL:DR - The real problem is how fast you decelerate, regardless of land speed.
Long answer:
The actual "speed" of a crash is governed by gravity - how fast you are falling towards the earth. Due to this, most moto crashes actually happen at similar speeds, as gravity is constant and we generally ride/race in a narrow variation of altitudes. 3-20 feet, give or take.
It is not the land speed, but rather the abrupt stop that leads to injury.
Land speed, unless you plow directly into a wall (abrupt stop), often reduces injury - as you are more like a rock skipping on water. Think of moto GP crashes. Can often get away from these with scrapes, bruises, and some soreness, generally speaking, if you avoid hitting other objects.
Low speed corner crashes often lead to broken wrists or collarbones. Abrupt stops like this are more common at low land speeds, as you have less momentum to keep your body in motion.
Lately we having been spending more time on pitbikes. We got KLX140 sized bike and race the Trail Bike Class. It is a hoot, not too small like a KLX110 but you can still ride them harm. We big bored them and have RM85 suspension on them.
One of the reasons (besides being healthier) I am losing weight is so I can ride a 250F instead of a 450F. I've lost 36 lbs so far and I'm getting closer to 250F weight. I know they are pretty fast, but I was 246 lbs and that would be too much for a 250F. My 450 just isn't as much fun to ride as I have gotten older and even working out you naturally lose strength. It's all about fun for me now anyway much more than in the past.
There’s are other variables to consider when discussing speed and safety. Getting run over by another rider is one of the biggest risks for catastrophic outcomes. If someone falls in front of you, your chances of avoiding them are better the slower you’re going.
You mentioned “unless you run into a wall”. That’s basically what happens in a rhythm section when you hit the face of another jump. So, it would seem that faster rhythm sections are more dangerous for this reason.
I think the real issue I’m seeing is that you focus on gravity without much consideration to how it’s interacting with other forces. Yes, gravity is constant so other things being equal, how fast you fall to earth is limited by the distance to the ground. But factor in the varied terrain in motocross and things are not equal. Inertia and rotational force come into play in motocross in more complex ways than in something like Moto GP. A motocross bike has much more vertical movement and a lot can go wrong with that. If a bike is going to endo and you hang on too long, it can basically use its rotation to slam you into the ground, like Cameron Mcadoo getting slammed by his bike a few years back. There is more force to cause a more severe impact when this happens at higher speeds (if speeds are low enough, it can’t happen). Or if you bail it can throw you upwards and forward like a catapult. Both of those situations change the forces involved quite dramatically compared to your typical Moto GP crash, and both are affected by speed.
More simply there’s a wider variety of ways to change direction or stop suddenly likely in motocross, and speed will increase the severity of impacts in many of these situations.
I’m no physicist so it’s entirely possible that I’ve gotten some things wrong here. I’m just trying to capture why it’s counterintuitive to deny that speed often increases the severity of impact and increases risk (granting that some low speed crashes can cause injury and some high speed crashes may not, for the reasons you’ve described).
You state categorically that speed does not result in more intense injuries (which implies never). I’m guessing that you mean to say that speed doesn’t generally result in more intense injuries, not that it can’t or never does.
I like riding in sand. The landings are softer when you crash!
I rode/raced a CR500 back in the early nineties and I'm still hear shooting my mouth off. It's all about throttle control
I think the difference is that a 500 2 stroke in the 90s scared you out of doing shit you shouldn't be doing.
A modern 4 stroke gives a lot of people unrealistic confidence to do things they shouldn't be doing, quite the opposite of a 500. They are also so damn good and so easy to ride that speeds are faster than ever and more people are going faster than ever.
It's just progression like others are saying but man, it seems like we've hit terminal velocity a little bit to me. How good do we need this things to be?
Interesting. Do you happen to know a company that sells “good protection”? I’m sure your opinion is unbiased.
Hodaka Ace 100, Yamaha Mx 100 & Kawasaki Green Streak comes to mind.
Pit Row
Golf Clap to you Sir….💯👏
The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation makes no sense even if you dismiss the forces from horizontal velocity. It makes even less sense if you look at it realistically and consider all factors.
Take the argument to the extreme. Would you rather fall out of a stationary vehicle or one doing 60mph down the highway? The force applied by gravity is the same in both.
Our point was isolated high speed is not the issue, it is often safer when isolated (motogp example), other variables are the issue.
The speed at which you decelerate is most important. The greater the deceleration, the worse the outcome.
So yes, when you add countless variables, or the likely situation of landing into a jump face, that’s a bad situation as we have all seen.
Our greater point in the other post - no variable eliminates riders from hitting the ground. Protect accordingly.
There are several. If you don’t think ours is the best, buy another one. Vote with your wallet.
Either we do well, or we are forced to make something better. Either way riders are safer, and that’s a good thing.
That’s much more to the point than my wordy post!
The point was more about land speed not always equaling greater injury.
In any case, riders will continue to hit the ground, in all kinds of ways, regardless of the variables that are changed. Gravity exists, therefore we hit the ground when we crash. Protection is necessary.
Even if you only ride 100cc bikes, in an oval, one person at a time - given enough time someone will highside into the wall and die from head or neck injury. Then what do you change? Protection (while not perfect) solves for all variables being discussed, without disrupting freedom of choice (you have to ride x bike, at x displacement, no jumping, etc).
Tough road to try and stop progression of tech, rider ability, or personal risks people are willing to take.
Ok. Feet are a bit stiff. Wearing air boots for the first 3 months 24hrs a day does play havoc on the feet/ankles. Shoulder not so good. 3 rotator cuff tendons torn completely.
I get the point now - the 100 cc bikes on an oval makes it very clear: this is a sales pitch. No matter how slow you are, if you ever ride a dirt bike, you need Atlas protection.
True for side crashes and that’s why the road racers walk away from crazy speeds. But a road track is clear of obstructions. Moto also has impact forces where speed is a variable (ie over handle bars or hitting an obstacle)
Don’t have to buy ours.
We just want a safer sport like everyone else, so we are trying to do our part - with products, and conversation.
Hate it for ya….. Take care .
Coming up short on a double and landing on the upside of the second jump or whoop is an abrupt stop. The faster you're going, the more abrupt the stop.
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