It’s time to slow bikes down

Radical
Posts
2871
Joined
10/20/2012
Location
San Diego, CA US
7/2/2025 2:04am
Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed...

Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? 

From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed, and was run over by those behind him. I don’t get the sense that it was speed or jump related. Mammoth doesn’t even have any big jumps and they’re all tables.

If it was traumatic chest injuries, we should be talking about mandating plastic chest protectors for under 18 year olds, or maybe those airbags.

If it was another traumatic injury, I’m really not sure what could be done. And even if a trained EMT with the appropriate equipment got to him within seconds, it’s very likely nothing could have been done to save him.

If he was leading and subsequently run over, what does lowering the displacement do to prevent this? It sounds like a horribly unfortunate and extremely rare circumstance that led to his death.



 

It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries.  It's physics.  Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.

1
5
Taotech
Posts
263
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2/23/2017
Location
Fuquay Varina, NC US
7/2/2025 3:18am Edited Date/Time 7/2/2025 3:24am

Man if we could have something like the old 100cc class.  Full size bikes with just barely enough power to go fast if you could keep your speed up and keep the engine singing.  

4
3
Taotech
Posts
263
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2/23/2017
Location
Fuquay Varina, NC US
7/2/2025 3:31am

I sure  hope something changes so I can go racing with my grandchildren.  It pains me to think that as it is right now I would steer them clear from it.  Effin sucks!

3
7/2/2025 4:55am
Personally, the spectacle is seeing the best riders in the world wrestle the gnarliest machinery on the gnatliest of terrain. For us mere mortals, 125cc bikes still...

Personally, the spectacle is seeing the best riders in the world wrestle the gnarliest machinery on the gnatliest of terrain. 

For us mere mortals, 125cc bikes still exist. 

But let us see what the professionals can do, no limitations. 

The problem is professionals don't just grow on a tree. You have to ride years to get there, which means now, at 13 or 14 you...

The problem is professionals don't just grow on a tree. You have to ride years to get there, which means now, at 13 or 14 you better be on a 250 (40+ HP easy) and ripping. And on a 450 (60 HP) at 16 or 17 to see how it fits and if you can handle all that mass and power. But there's only 1% (probably less in reality) that can truly rip on a 250, much less a 450. The other 99% are getting broken on a regular basis, even the very good ones. I know a very fast PNW kid that's had so many major injuries before 16 (2 broken femurs among others) that he had to stop, and another heading to LL this year that's broken 12 bones and he's only 15. We know who the fast kids here are, and for many the question is always "can he stay off the ground, and for how long". There is NO other sport with this injury rate or severity among the young. Not football, not skiing, not MTB, not hockey. It's why I stopped riding MX 2 years ago, and why my son at 18 decided it wasn't worth it anymore. 

At what point does it become the rider’s responsibility to look out for self-preservation?

Just because the machinery is capable, doesn’t mean you can just climb aboard & go balls out. 
An element of the competition, & in fact an element of becoming a professional is looking out for your well being, & being able to stay healthy and ‘stack blocks’ along your training journey will help more than time spent recovering on the couch.

There is usually only one person to blame for riders getting injured- and that’s the guy twisting the throttle. 

‘Guns don’t kill people, people do..’

5
2

The Shop

7/2/2025 5:02am
Personally, the spectacle is seeing the best riders in the world wrestle the gnarliest machinery on the gnatliest of terrain. For us mere mortals, 125cc bikes still...

Personally, the spectacle is seeing the best riders in the world wrestle the gnarliest machinery on the gnatliest of terrain. 

For us mere mortals, 125cc bikes still exist. 

But let us see what the professionals can do, no limitations. 

Tumic wrote:
Sometimes racing has a tendency to fuck it self over with the classes.It’s often rare that the class with moste power produces the best racing.In moto...

Sometimes racing has a tendency to fuck it self over with the classes.

It’s often rare that the class with moste power produces the best racing.


In moto gp both moto 3 and moto 2 often produces better racing than the GP class. In motocross it’s not rare that the 125/250f class has better racing than the 250/450 class and when the 500cc class existed it was never the best racing there for the spectators.

I personally feel that if a lower class produces better racing than the main class the bikes has become to powerful in the main class.

Now, it’s not always the case, we have had some good 450 races, but over all the years, the little class is often more exciting to watch.

IMO that’s due to the riders in the class. 

The ‘elitist’ of the elite have moved in to 450s & so the 250s is left with the (lesser) elites. (With respect) who are all of a closer ability/speed. 
 

ithinkitsbroke
Posts
101
Joined
1/29/2024
Location
The Semi Frozen Tundra, MN US
7/2/2025 6:32am

Definitely a cumulative effect IMO, with the majority of the blame pie falling on the rider and people at the track. 

That being said, I do think the bikes play a role too. Nobody needs a 450 unless you're at the pinnacle of the sport. A 14 year old shouldn't be on a 250F unless their skill level is high and their body is ready for it. I've seen so many crashes throughout the years that were made worse by the bike out matching the riders ability. A few of those crashes happened to close friends, and it ended their riding career. Would they have crashed on a different size bike? Probably. But in every case it was worse than it should have been.

We can't continue to lose riders (and tracks) due to shit like this. Especially vet guys. They have enough money to keep the aftermarket and OEMs alive, and pass on what we love on to our kids. 

crt32
Posts
958
Joined
4/20/2015
Location
Oklahoma City, OK US
7/2/2025 6:56am

Maybe it's time to improve and bulk up our outer protection, and who cares if its uncomfortable, make it mandatory. Look how thin everyone looks even with their "under protectors" on. NFL has huge padding and motocross riders hit the ground way harder than they do. 

3
1
Mit12
Posts
2192
Joined
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Location
Lake Havasu City, AZ US
7/2/2025 9:49am

We need a bike to transition from mini to full size bikes. If they stay 4 stroke may be a 150. 
I my self would like the AMA and FIM go with 150cc / 300cc 4 strokes for SX and out doors. The only problem with a change like this is the 150cc bikes would be time bombs and cost a fortune to keep running 

7/2/2025 9:59am

Gravity is not going away.

Changing the bikes, tracks, displacement, speed, rider ability, weather, flaggers, or any of the other variables are never ending arguments and opinions - yet NONE of them negate gravity or prevent riders from hitting the ground.

The only answer that attempts to solve for gravity is more protection for riders today, and better protection being invented for tomorrow. 

You must do all that you can to protect your head, neck, and vital organs. Wear the best helmets. Wear the best neck braces. Wear the best chest protectors. Those are the 3 most important pieces of safety equipment on the planet, designed specifically for those critical areas of the body. 

Protect accordingly.

3
2
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
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Location
Yellow Pine, ID US
7/2/2025 10:07am
Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed...

Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? 

From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed, and was run over by those behind him. I don’t get the sense that it was speed or jump related. Mammoth doesn’t even have any big jumps and they’re all tables.

If it was traumatic chest injuries, we should be talking about mandating plastic chest protectors for under 18 year olds, or maybe those airbags.

If it was another traumatic injury, I’m really not sure what could be done. And even if a trained EMT with the appropriate equipment got to him within seconds, it’s very likely nothing could have been done to save him.

If he was leading and subsequently run over, what does lowering the displacement do to prevent this? It sounds like a horribly unfortunate and extremely rare circumstance that led to his death.



 

It's not just about this one incident.

4 strokes, due to ease of ridability and the nature of the motor have led to more catastrophic crashes.  Period.  That's not even up for debate.

Hell, Brent had to delete his posts because he proved that point when he was trying to prove the opposite point.  "We need 450s because they allow old Vets like me to do jumps we have no business doing."  Is the exact fucking reason we don't need 450s.

13
2
7/2/2025 10:19am
Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed...

Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? 

From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed, and was run over by those behind him. I don’t get the sense that it was speed or jump related. Mammoth doesn’t even have any big jumps and they’re all tables.

If it was traumatic chest injuries, we should be talking about mandating plastic chest protectors for under 18 year olds, or maybe those airbags.

If it was another traumatic injury, I’m really not sure what could be done. And even if a trained EMT with the appropriate equipment got to him within seconds, it’s very likely nothing could have been done to save him.

If he was leading and subsequently run over, what does lowering the displacement do to prevent this? It sounds like a horribly unfortunate and extremely rare circumstance that led to his death.



 

Radical wrote:
It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going...

It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries.  It's physics.  Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.

Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:

TL:DR - The real problem is how fast you decelerate, regardless of land speed.

Long answer:

The actual "speed" of a crash is governed by gravity - how fast you are falling towards the earth. Due to this, most moto crashes actually happen at similar speeds, as gravity is constant and we generally ride/race in a narrow variation of altitudes. 3-20 feet, give or take.

It is not the land speed, but rather the abrupt stop that leads to injury. 

Land speed, unless you plow directly into a wall (abrupt stop), often reduces injury - as you are more like a rock skipping on water. Think of moto GP crashes. Can often get away from these with scrapes, bruises, and some soreness, generally speaking, if you avoid hitting other objects.

Low speed corner crashes often lead to broken wrists or collarbones. Abrupt stops like this are more common at low land speeds, as you have less momentum to keep your body in motion.

 

3
11
alphado
Posts
4083
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Erie, PA US
7/2/2025 10:26am

Lately we having been spending more time on pitbikes.  We got KLX140 sized bike and race the Trail Bike Class.  It is a hoot, not too small like a KLX110 but you can still ride them harm.  We big bored them and have RM85 suspension on them.

3
mx317
Posts
5319
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
TN US
7/2/2025 1:06pm
Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed...

Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? 

From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed, and was run over by those behind him. I don’t get the sense that it was speed or jump related. Mammoth doesn’t even have any big jumps and they’re all tables.

If it was traumatic chest injuries, we should be talking about mandating plastic chest protectors for under 18 year olds, or maybe those airbags.

If it was another traumatic injury, I’m really not sure what could be done. And even if a trained EMT with the appropriate equipment got to him within seconds, it’s very likely nothing could have been done to save him.

If he was leading and subsequently run over, what does lowering the displacement do to prevent this? It sounds like a horribly unfortunate and extremely rare circumstance that led to his death.



 

LungButter wrote:
It's not just about this one incident.4 strokes, due to ease of ridability and the nature of the motor have led to more catastrophic crashes.  Period...

It's not just about this one incident.

4 strokes, due to ease of ridability and the nature of the motor have led to more catastrophic crashes.  Period.  That's not even up for debate.

Hell, Brent had to delete his posts because he proved that point when he was trying to prove the opposite point.  "We need 450s because they allow old Vets like me to do jumps we have no business doing."  Is the exact fucking reason we don't need 450s.

One of the reasons (besides being healthier) I am losing weight is so I can ride a 250F instead of a 450F. I've lost 36 lbs so far and I'm getting closer to 250F weight. I know they are pretty fast, but I was 246 lbs and that would be too much for a 250F. My 450 just isn't as much fun to ride as I have gotten older and even working out you naturally lose strength. It's all about fun for me now anyway much more than in the past.

MPJC
Posts
2059
Joined
5/18/2017
Location
CA
Fantasy
7/2/2025 2:31pm Edited Date/Time 7/2/2025 2:49pm
Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed...

Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? 

From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed, and was run over by those behind him. I don’t get the sense that it was speed or jump related. Mammoth doesn’t even have any big jumps and they’re all tables.

If it was traumatic chest injuries, we should be talking about mandating plastic chest protectors for under 18 year olds, or maybe those airbags.

If it was another traumatic injury, I’m really not sure what could be done. And even if a trained EMT with the appropriate equipment got to him within seconds, it’s very likely nothing could have been done to save him.

If he was leading and subsequently run over, what does lowering the displacement do to prevent this? It sounds like a horribly unfortunate and extremely rare circumstance that led to his death.



 

Radical wrote:
It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going...

It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries.  It's physics.  Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.

AtlasBrace wrote:
Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:TL:DR - The real problem...

Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:

TL:DR - The real problem is how fast you decelerate, regardless of land speed.

Long answer:

The actual "speed" of a crash is governed by gravity - how fast you are falling towards the earth. Due to this, most moto crashes actually happen at similar speeds, as gravity is constant and we generally ride/race in a narrow variation of altitudes. 3-20 feet, give or take.

It is not the land speed, but rather the abrupt stop that leads to injury. 

Land speed, unless you plow directly into a wall (abrupt stop), often reduces injury - as you are more like a rock skipping on water. Think of moto GP crashes. Can often get away from these with scrapes, bruises, and some soreness, generally speaking, if you avoid hitting other objects.

Low speed corner crashes often lead to broken wrists or collarbones. Abrupt stops like this are more common at low land speeds, as you have less momentum to keep your body in motion.

 

There’s are other variables to consider when discussing speed and safety. Getting run over by another rider is one of the biggest risks for catastrophic outcomes. If someone falls in front of you, your chances of avoiding them are better the slower you’re going. 

You mentioned “unless you run into a wall”. That’s basically what happens in a rhythm section when you hit the face of another jump. So, it would seem that faster rhythm sections are more dangerous for this reason. 

I think the real issue I’m seeing is that you focus on gravity without much consideration to how it’s interacting with other forces. Yes, gravity is constant so other things being equal, how fast you fall to earth is limited by the distance to the ground. But factor in the varied terrain in motocross and things are not equal. Inertia and rotational force come into play in motocross in more complex ways than in something like Moto GP. A motocross bike has much more vertical movement and a lot can go wrong with that. If a bike is going to endo and you hang on too long, it can basically use its rotation to slam you into the ground, like Cameron Mcadoo getting slammed by his bike a few years back. There is more force to cause a more severe impact when this happens at higher speeds (if speeds are low enough, it can’t happen). Or if you bail it can throw you upwards and forward like a catapult. Both of those situations change the forces involved quite dramatically compared to your typical Moto GP crash, and both are affected by speed.

More simply there’s a wider variety of ways to change direction or stop suddenly likely in motocross, and speed will increase the severity of impacts in many of these situations. 

I’m no physicist so it’s entirely possible that I’ve gotten some things wrong here. I’m just trying to capture why it’s counterintuitive to deny that speed often increases the severity of impact and increases risk (granting that some low speed crashes can cause injury and some high speed crashes may not, for the reasons you’ve described). 

You state categorically that speed does not result in more intense injuries (which implies never). I’m guessing that you mean to say that speed doesn’t generally result in more intense injuries, not that it can’t or never does.

I like riding in sand. The landings are softer when you crash!

2
1
motomike137
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8180
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4/22/2010
Location
Fenton, MI US
7/2/2025 2:53pm
At what point does it become the rider’s responsibility to look out for self-preservation?Just because the machinery is capable, doesn’t mean you can just climb aboard...

At what point does it become the rider’s responsibility to look out for self-preservation?

Just because the machinery is capable, doesn’t mean you can just climb aboard & go balls out. 
An element of the competition, & in fact an element of becoming a professional is looking out for your well being, & being able to stay healthy and ‘stack blocks’ along your training journey will help more than time spent recovering on the couch.

There is usually only one person to blame for riders getting injured- and that’s the guy twisting the throttle. 

‘Guns don’t kill people, people do..’

I rode/raced a CR500 back in the early nineties and I'm still hear shooting my mouth off. It's all about throttle control Wink

2
1
LungButter
Posts
8684
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1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID US
7/2/2025 3:06pm

I rode/raced a CR500 back in the early nineties and I'm still hear shooting my mouth off. It's all about throttle control Wink

I think the difference is that a 500 2 stroke in the 90s scared you out of doing shit you shouldn't be doing.

A modern 4 stroke gives a lot of people unrealistic confidence to do things they shouldn't be doing, quite the opposite of a 500.  They are also so damn good and so easy to ride that speeds are faster than ever and more people are going faster than ever.

It's just progression like others are saying but man, it seems like we've hit terminal velocity a little bit to me.  How good do we need this things to be?

8
Spike33
Posts
557
Joined
1/6/2024
Location
Malibu, CA US
7/2/2025 3:58pm
AtlasBrace wrote:
Gravity is not going away.Changing the bikes, tracks, displacement, speed, rider ability, weather, flaggers, or any of the other variables are never ending arguments and...

Gravity is not going away.

Changing the bikes, tracks, displacement, speed, rider ability, weather, flaggers, or any of the other variables are never ending arguments and opinions - yet NONE of them negate gravity or prevent riders from hitting the ground.

The only answer that attempts to solve for gravity is more protection for riders today, and better protection being invented for tomorrow. 

You must do all that you can to protect your head, neck, and vital organs. Wear the best helmets. Wear the best neck braces. Wear the best chest protectors. Those are the 3 most important pieces of safety equipment on the planet, designed specifically for those critical areas of the body. 

Protect accordingly.

Interesting. Do you happen to know a company that sells “good protection”? I’m sure your opinion is unbiased. 

4
Kenny Banyan
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3980
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6/2/2024
Location
Seattle, WA US
7/2/2025 4:10pm
Taotech wrote:
Man if we could have something like the old 100cc class.  Full size bikes with just barely enough power to go fast if you could keep...

Man if we could have something like the old 100cc class.  Full size bikes with just barely enough power to go fast if you could keep your speed up and keep the engine singing.  

Hodaka Ace 100, Yamaha Mx 100 & Kawasaki Green Streak comes to mind.

2
Kenny Banyan
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3980
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Location
Seattle, WA US
7/2/2025 4:12pm

I rode/raced a CR500 back in the early nineties and I'm still hear shooting my mouth off. It's all about throttle control Wink

LungButter wrote:
I think the difference is that a 500 2 stroke in the 90s scared you out of doing shit you shouldn't be doing.A modern 4 stroke...

I think the difference is that a 500 2 stroke in the 90s scared you out of doing shit you shouldn't be doing.

A modern 4 stroke gives a lot of people unrealistic confidence to do things they shouldn't be doing, quite the opposite of a 500.  They are also so damn good and so easy to ride that speeds are faster than ever and more people are going faster than ever.

It's just progression like others are saying but man, it seems like we've hit terminal velocity a little bit to me.  How good do we need this things to be?

Golf Clap to you Sir….💯👏

2
truck
Posts
3679
Joined
6/10/2015
Location
Louisville, KY US
Fantasy
7/2/2025 4:20pm Edited Date/Time 7/2/2025 4:24pm
Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed...

Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? 

From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed, and was run over by those behind him. I don’t get the sense that it was speed or jump related. Mammoth doesn’t even have any big jumps and they’re all tables.

If it was traumatic chest injuries, we should be talking about mandating plastic chest protectors for under 18 year olds, or maybe those airbags.

If it was another traumatic injury, I’m really not sure what could be done. And even if a trained EMT with the appropriate equipment got to him within seconds, it’s very likely nothing could have been done to save him.

If he was leading and subsequently run over, what does lowering the displacement do to prevent this? It sounds like a horribly unfortunate and extremely rare circumstance that led to his death.



 

Radical wrote:
It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going...

It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries.  It's physics.  Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.

AtlasBrace wrote:
Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:TL:DR - The real problem...

Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:

TL:DR - The real problem is how fast you decelerate, regardless of land speed.

Long answer:

The actual "speed" of a crash is governed by gravity - how fast you are falling towards the earth. Due to this, most moto crashes actually happen at similar speeds, as gravity is constant and we generally ride/race in a narrow variation of altitudes. 3-20 feet, give or take.

It is not the land speed, but rather the abrupt stop that leads to injury. 

Land speed, unless you plow directly into a wall (abrupt stop), often reduces injury - as you are more like a rock skipping on water. Think of moto GP crashes. Can often get away from these with scrapes, bruises, and some soreness, generally speaking, if you avoid hitting other objects.

Low speed corner crashes often lead to broken wrists or collarbones. Abrupt stops like this are more common at low land speeds, as you have less momentum to keep your body in motion.

 

The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation makes no sense even if you dismiss the forces from horizontal velocity. It makes even less sense if you look at it realistically and consider all factors. 

Take the argument to the extreme. Would you rather fall out of a stationary vehicle or one doing 60mph down the highway? The force applied by gravity is the same in both. 

4
1
7/2/2025 4:25pm
Radical wrote:
It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going...

It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries.  It's physics.  Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.

AtlasBrace wrote:
Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:TL:DR - The real problem...

Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:

TL:DR - The real problem is how fast you decelerate, regardless of land speed.

Long answer:

The actual "speed" of a crash is governed by gravity - how fast you are falling towards the earth. Due to this, most moto crashes actually happen at similar speeds, as gravity is constant and we generally ride/race in a narrow variation of altitudes. 3-20 feet, give or take.

It is not the land speed, but rather the abrupt stop that leads to injury. 

Land speed, unless you plow directly into a wall (abrupt stop), often reduces injury - as you are more like a rock skipping on water. Think of moto GP crashes. Can often get away from these with scrapes, bruises, and some soreness, generally speaking, if you avoid hitting other objects.

Low speed corner crashes often lead to broken wrists or collarbones. Abrupt stops like this are more common at low land speeds, as you have less momentum to keep your body in motion.

 

MPJC wrote:
There’s are other variables to consider when discussing speed and safety. Getting run over by another rider is one of the biggest risks for catastrophic outcomes...

There’s are other variables to consider when discussing speed and safety. Getting run over by another rider is one of the biggest risks for catastrophic outcomes. If someone falls in front of you, your chances of avoiding them are better the slower you’re going. 

You mentioned “unless you run into a wall”. That’s basically what happens in a rhythm section when you hit the face of another jump. So, it would seem that faster rhythm sections are more dangerous for this reason. 

I think the real issue I’m seeing is that you focus on gravity without much consideration to how it’s interacting with other forces. Yes, gravity is constant so other things being equal, how fast you fall to earth is limited by the distance to the ground. But factor in the varied terrain in motocross and things are not equal. Inertia and rotational force come into play in motocross in more complex ways than in something like Moto GP. A motocross bike has much more vertical movement and a lot can go wrong with that. If a bike is going to endo and you hang on too long, it can basically use its rotation to slam you into the ground, like Cameron Mcadoo getting slammed by his bike a few years back. There is more force to cause a more severe impact when this happens at higher speeds (if speeds are low enough, it can’t happen). Or if you bail it can throw you upwards and forward like a catapult. Both of those situations change the forces involved quite dramatically compared to your typical Moto GP crash, and both are affected by speed.

More simply there’s a wider variety of ways to change direction or stop suddenly likely in motocross, and speed will increase the severity of impacts in many of these situations. 

I’m no physicist so it’s entirely possible that I’ve gotten some things wrong here. I’m just trying to capture why it’s counterintuitive to deny that speed often increases the severity of impact and increases risk (granting that some low speed crashes can cause injury and some high speed crashes may not, for the reasons you’ve described). 

You state categorically that speed does not result in more intense injuries (which implies never). I’m guessing that you mean to say that speed doesn’t generally result in more intense injuries, not that it can’t or never does.

I like riding in sand. The landings are softer when you crash!

Our point was isolated high speed is not the issue, it is often safer when isolated (motogp example), other variables are the issue.

The speed at which you decelerate is most important. The greater the deceleration, the worse the outcome. 

So yes, when you add countless variables, or the likely situation of landing into a jump face, that’s a bad situation as we have all seen. 

Our greater point in the other post - no variable eliminates riders from hitting the ground. Protect accordingly. 

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2
7/2/2025 4:27pm
AtlasBrace wrote:
Gravity is not going away.Changing the bikes, tracks, displacement, speed, rider ability, weather, flaggers, or any of the other variables are never ending arguments and...

Gravity is not going away.

Changing the bikes, tracks, displacement, speed, rider ability, weather, flaggers, or any of the other variables are never ending arguments and opinions - yet NONE of them negate gravity or prevent riders from hitting the ground.

The only answer that attempts to solve for gravity is more protection for riders today, and better protection being invented for tomorrow. 

You must do all that you can to protect your head, neck, and vital organs. Wear the best helmets. Wear the best neck braces. Wear the best chest protectors. Those are the 3 most important pieces of safety equipment on the planet, designed specifically for those critical areas of the body. 

Protect accordingly.

Spike33 wrote:

Interesting. Do you happen to know a company that sells “good protection”? I’m sure your opinion is unbiased. 

There are several. If you don’t think ours is the best, buy another one. Vote with your wallet. 

Either we do well, or we are forced to make something better. Either way riders are safer, and that’s a good thing. 

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1
MPJC
Posts
2059
Joined
5/18/2017
Location
CA
Fantasy
7/2/2025 4:46pm
Radical wrote:
It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going...

It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries.  It's physics.  Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.

AtlasBrace wrote:
Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:TL:DR - The real problem...

Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:

TL:DR - The real problem is how fast you decelerate, regardless of land speed.

Long answer:

The actual "speed" of a crash is governed by gravity - how fast you are falling towards the earth. Due to this, most moto crashes actually happen at similar speeds, as gravity is constant and we generally ride/race in a narrow variation of altitudes. 3-20 feet, give or take.

It is not the land speed, but rather the abrupt stop that leads to injury. 

Land speed, unless you plow directly into a wall (abrupt stop), often reduces injury - as you are more like a rock skipping on water. Think of moto GP crashes. Can often get away from these with scrapes, bruises, and some soreness, generally speaking, if you avoid hitting other objects.

Low speed corner crashes often lead to broken wrists or collarbones. Abrupt stops like this are more common at low land speeds, as you have less momentum to keep your body in motion.

 

truck wrote:
The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation...

The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation makes no sense even if you dismiss the forces from horizontal velocity. It makes even less sense if you look at it realistically and consider all factors. 

Take the argument to the extreme. Would you rather fall out of a stationary vehicle or one doing 60mph down the highway? The force applied by gravity is the same in both. 

That’s much more to the point than my wordy post! 

7/2/2025 5:07pm
truck wrote:
The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation...

The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation makes no sense even if you dismiss the forces from horizontal velocity. It makes even less sense if you look at it realistically and consider all factors. 

Take the argument to the extreme. Would you rather fall out of a stationary vehicle or one doing 60mph down the highway? The force applied by gravity is the same in both. 

The point was more about land speed not always equaling greater injury.  

In any case, riders will continue to hit the ground, in all kinds of ways, regardless of the variables that are changed. Gravity exists, therefore we hit the ground when we crash. Protection is necessary. 

Even if you only ride 100cc bikes, in an oval, one person at a time - given enough time someone will highside into the wall and die from head or neck injury. Then what do you change? Protection (while not perfect) solves for all variables being discussed, without disrupting freedom of choice (you have to ride x bike, at x displacement, no jumping, etc). 

Tough road to try and stop progression of tech, rider ability, or personal risks people are willing to take. 

2
Darrin Willis
Posts
1105
Joined
11/16/2020
Location
Red Deer County, AB CA
7/2/2025 5:13pm

How you doing? Both achilles is brutal. 

Ok. Feet are a bit stiff. Wearing air boots for the first 3 months 24hrs a day does play havoc on the feet/ankles. Shoulder not so good. 3 rotator cuff tendons torn completely. 

1
MPJC
Posts
2059
Joined
5/18/2017
Location
CA
Fantasy
7/2/2025 5:32pm
truck wrote:
The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation...

The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation makes no sense even if you dismiss the forces from horizontal velocity. It makes even less sense if you look at it realistically and consider all factors. 

Take the argument to the extreme. Would you rather fall out of a stationary vehicle or one doing 60mph down the highway? The force applied by gravity is the same in both. 

AtlasBrace wrote:
The point was more about land speed not always equaling greater injury.  In any case, riders will continue to hit the ground, in all kinds of...

The point was more about land speed not always equaling greater injury.  

In any case, riders will continue to hit the ground, in all kinds of ways, regardless of the variables that are changed. Gravity exists, therefore we hit the ground when we crash. Protection is necessary. 

Even if you only ride 100cc bikes, in an oval, one person at a time - given enough time someone will highside into the wall and die from head or neck injury. Then what do you change? Protection (while not perfect) solves for all variables being discussed, without disrupting freedom of choice (you have to ride x bike, at x displacement, no jumping, etc). 

Tough road to try and stop progression of tech, rider ability, or personal risks people are willing to take. 

I get the point now - the 100 cc bikes on an oval makes it very clear: this is a sales pitch. No matter how slow you are, if you ever ride a dirt bike, you need Atlas protection.   
 

 

1
1
Dudley
Posts
522
Joined
9/10/2012
Location
Denver, CO US
7/2/2025 5:44pm
Radical wrote:
It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going...

It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries.  It's physics.  Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.

AtlasBrace wrote:
Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:TL:DR - The real problem...

Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:

TL:DR - The real problem is how fast you decelerate, regardless of land speed.

Long answer:

The actual "speed" of a crash is governed by gravity - how fast you are falling towards the earth. Due to this, most moto crashes actually happen at similar speeds, as gravity is constant and we generally ride/race in a narrow variation of altitudes. 3-20 feet, give or take.

It is not the land speed, but rather the abrupt stop that leads to injury. 

Land speed, unless you plow directly into a wall (abrupt stop), often reduces injury - as you are more like a rock skipping on water. Think of moto GP crashes. Can often get away from these with scrapes, bruises, and some soreness, generally speaking, if you avoid hitting other objects.

Low speed corner crashes often lead to broken wrists or collarbones. Abrupt stops like this are more common at low land speeds, as you have less momentum to keep your body in motion.

 

truck wrote:
The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation...

The vertical force from gravity, if that's all we're going to reduce this to, is constant no matter what the horizontal velocity is. So this explanation makes no sense even if you dismiss the forces from horizontal velocity. It makes even less sense if you look at it realistically and consider all factors. 

Take the argument to the extreme. Would you rather fall out of a stationary vehicle or one doing 60mph down the highway? The force applied by gravity is the same in both. 

True for side crashes and that’s why the road racers walk away from crazy speeds. But a road track is clear of obstructions. Moto also has impact forces where speed is a variable (ie over handle bars or hitting an obstacle) 

1
1
7/2/2025 6:29pm
MPJC wrote:
I get the point now - the 100 cc bikes on an oval makes it very clear: this is a sales pitch. No matter how slow...

I get the point now - the 100 cc bikes on an oval makes it very clear: this is a sales pitch. No matter how slow you are, if you ever ride a dirt bike, you need Atlas protection.   
 

 

Don’t have to buy ours. 

We just want a safer sport like everyone else, so we are trying to do our part - with products, and conversation. 

2
2
Kenny Banyan
Posts
3980
Joined
6/2/2024
Location
Seattle, WA US
7/2/2025 6:37pm

How you doing? Both achilles is brutal. 

Ok. Feet are a bit stiff. Wearing air boots for the first 3 months 24hrs a day does play havoc on the feet/ankles. Shoulder not so...

Ok. Feet are a bit stiff. Wearing air boots for the first 3 months 24hrs a day does play havoc on the feet/ankles. Shoulder not so good. 3 rotator cuff tendons torn completely. 

Hate it for ya….. Take care .

1
Radical
Posts
2871
Joined
10/20/2012
Location
San Diego, CA US
7/2/2025 7:57pm
Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed...

Does anyone know for certain what circumstances led to Aidan’s death? 

From everything I’ve been able to filter through, it sounds like he was leading and crashed, and was run over by those behind him. I don’t get the sense that it was speed or jump related. Mammoth doesn’t even have any big jumps and they’re all tables.

If it was traumatic chest injuries, we should be talking about mandating plastic chest protectors for under 18 year olds, or maybe those airbags.

If it was another traumatic injury, I’m really not sure what could be done. And even if a trained EMT with the appropriate equipment got to him within seconds, it’s very likely nothing could have been done to save him.

If he was leading and subsequently run over, what does lowering the displacement do to prevent this? It sounds like a horribly unfortunate and extremely rare circumstance that led to his death.



 

Radical wrote:
It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going...

It would've provided more time for the riders behind him to react.  It's not going to make our sport as safe as golf.  It is going to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries.  It's physics.  Crashing at a higher speed is going to result in more intense injuries.

AtlasBrace wrote:
Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:TL:DR - The real problem...

Higher speeds do not result in more intense injuries, its usually the opposite, actually., I know it sounds weird but consider this:

TL:DR - The real problem is how fast you decelerate, regardless of land speed.

Long answer:

The actual "speed" of a crash is governed by gravity - how fast you are falling towards the earth. Due to this, most moto crashes actually happen at similar speeds, as gravity is constant and we generally ride/race in a narrow variation of altitudes. 3-20 feet, give or take.

It is not the land speed, but rather the abrupt stop that leads to injury. 

Land speed, unless you plow directly into a wall (abrupt stop), often reduces injury - as you are more like a rock skipping on water. Think of moto GP crashes. Can often get away from these with scrapes, bruises, and some soreness, generally speaking, if you avoid hitting other objects.

Low speed corner crashes often lead to broken wrists or collarbones. Abrupt stops like this are more common at low land speeds, as you have less momentum to keep your body in motion.

 

Coming up short on a double and landing on the upside of the second jump or whoop is an abrupt stop.  The faster you're going, the more abrupt the stop.

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1

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