When can we actually expect a 350 from another manufacturer?

6/13/2025 2:11pm
LungButter wrote:

The extra inertia in the motor of the 450 makes them seem heavier and more tiring for most folks that I know.

Your mileage may vary.

Yeah the inertia is real, but I also think lots of novice 450 riders are a gear to low in most corners.


I just came off 100 hours of a 250 sx carb, was amazing how mellow a 350 felt, yes would go eventually but felt too much revs for me. 

I suppose will always be track / conditions dependent but a 450 can potentially be the least tiring if you can find the timing / throttle control. 

 

1
6/13/2025 2:14pm
Flatliner wrote:
Just two short test rides, but I rode a low hour 21 yamaha 450, and the 21 ktm 350 I just bought.  went with the ktm...

Just two short test rides, but I rode a low hour 21 yamaha 450, and the 21 ktm 350 I just bought.  went with the ktm and I'm 225 without gear.  It really surprised me.  Can't wait to log some laps.

I guess also depends if racing against 450 or just practice riding.

 

6/13/2025 2:21pm
LungButter wrote:
Sure, but doesn't it also become a chore riding a 450 that has WAY more horsepower than 99% of us need?450s seem to make me tired...

Sure, but doesn't it also become a chore riding a 450 that has WAY more horsepower than 99% of us need?

450s seem to make me tired way faster than pretty much any other bike.

Not sure that’s the case. 450 needs to be ridden less aggressively, so you can be more efficient by making sure your in a good attack...

Not sure that’s the case. 450 needs to be ridden less aggressively, so you can be more efficient by making sure your in a good attack position before rolling it on. 

I think all bikes wear you out if your timing isn’t good, 350 is too much like 250f for me. I don’t see the point in a half measure. 

That makes sense. I'm just flat out not skilled enough for a 450. I do feel like a hero for 2 laps but then I'm pretty much along for the ride. Everyone says to me, oh youre big enough for handle a 450. Because I'm a muscular 200lbs. But its not a lack of strength issue, its a lack of talent issue lol

1
6/13/2025 2:30pm
That makes sense. I'm just flat out not skilled enough for a 450. I do feel like a hero for 2 laps but then I'm pretty...

That makes sense. I'm just flat out not skilled enough for a 450. I do feel like a hero for 2 laps but then I'm pretty much along for the ride. Everyone says to me, oh youre big enough for handle a 450. Because I'm a muscular 200lbs. But its not a lack of strength issue, its a lack of talent issue lol

Yeah foresure. In general on any bike you should barely needs to grip bars. If you get worn out in 2 laps better to slow down a bit & try go with the bike more on acceleration. 

Tricky though as very easy to get a bit carried away especially when the gate drops.

Do you re grip throttle before getting on the gas ? 


 

The Shop

6/13/2025 2:51pm
That makes sense. I'm just flat out not skilled enough for a 450. I do feel like a hero for 2 laps but then I'm pretty...

That makes sense. I'm just flat out not skilled enough for a 450. I do feel like a hero for 2 laps but then I'm pretty much along for the ride. Everyone says to me, oh youre big enough for handle a 450. Because I'm a muscular 200lbs. But its not a lack of strength issue, its a lack of talent issue lol

Yeah foresure. In general on any bike you should barely needs to grip bars. If you get worn out in 2 laps better to slow down...

Yeah foresure. In general on any bike you should barely needs to grip bars. If you get worn out in 2 laps better to slow down a bit & try go with the bike more on acceleration. 

Tricky though as very easy to get a bit carried away especially when the gate drops.

Do you re grip throttle before getting on the gas ? 


 

I'm going to say I dont because I'm not even sure what you mean by that lol

1
6/13/2025 2:59pm

I'm going to say I dont because I'm not even sure what you mean by that lol

Be worth having a research up on it, you tube etc. Makes a huge difference to efficiency. 

6/13/2025 3:09pm

I'm going to say I dont because I'm not even sure what you mean by that lol

Be worth having a research up on it, you tube etc. Makes a huge difference to efficiency. 

Appreciate it! 

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Titan1
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6/13/2025 3:30pm Edited Date/Time 6/13/2025 5:07pm

I see a lot of people riding 450's the wrong way (riding them the way they ride a 250f or a two stroke), and then say they get worn out because the 450's are too much for them...and they do get worn out, because trying to manhandle a 450 the way they would a 250f or two stroke is harder...very few people (Eli Tomac types) can ride a 450 that way for any respectable length of time...

However, if you let the torque do its thing, ride a gear (sometimes two) higher than you might think you should...a 450 is very easy to ride, and even ride fast without getting tired.  Riding a gear or two high does require some skill with a clutch...otherwise there will be lots of stalling and frustration. 

I find it exhausting to try and ride a 250f or two stroke fast...it sure is fun, very fun...but I find it takes way more energy/effort to ride a small bore as fast as I ride my 450. 

With that said...the 350 is the happy medium as far as I'm concerned...which is why I'll buy one for my next bike...more torque that a 250...and they rev forever up top so it doesn't require a ton of shifting, but less inertia than a 450.  I've had a blast riding them whenever I've had the opportunity. I really wish yamaha would buy one.  

wrc777
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6/13/2025 3:39pm
rmgsxr wrote:
How about some what ifs?What if over the last 12 months Yamaha sold around 4300 YZ250F's and 3300 450's and during the same period there were...

How about some what ifs?

What if over the last 12 months Yamaha sold around 4300 YZ250F's and 3300 450's and during the same period there were 1600 350 MX bikes sold between the three colors? Would that get the bean counters in Japan all fired up to add another model to the lineup?  But wait, Yamaha sold around 1700 Yz125's and 1400 YZ85's. No way that Yamaha sold more 125 MX bikes than there were 350cc MX bikes sold. 

Now KTM did sell around 3000 300XC-W's(and 1500 Husqvarna TE300's). Maybe Yamaha should really focus on that model. 

But wait, Honda sold 12,000 CRF110F's during that same period. 

Seeing some of the real numbers can be eye opening for sure. 

Do those numbers include xc bikes for either company? 

Any idea if the Yamaha factory is tapped out at those build numbers? No point building a new model if the factory doesn’t have room. 

I agree on the 300 xcw. Those sell for more than mx bikes, and I bet they cost less to build than a four stroke. 

Ebs
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6/13/2025 4:22pm

Has anyone raced one since the Alessi days?

MX558
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6/13/2025 4:40pm
Not sure that’s the case. 450 needs to be ridden less aggressively, so you can be more efficient by making sure your in a good attack...

Not sure that’s the case. 450 needs to be ridden less aggressively, so you can be more efficient by making sure your in a good attack position before rolling it on. 

I think all bikes wear you out if your timing isn’t good, 350 is too much like 250f for me. I don’t see the point in a half measure. 

LungButter wrote:

The extra inertia in the motor of the 450 makes them seem heavier and more tiring for most folks that I know.

Your mileage may vary.

Another good post. 450's feel so heavy to me now after getting off my 350

I agree. I have a 15 KTM 350 and rode a 22 kx450 and a 24 kx450 and the 24 was slow as shit and heavy while the 22 seemed just a little heavier and handled good. ( I had 2 19 kx450s and loved them) my 250 was definitely faster than the 24 kx

rmgsxr
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6/13/2025 4:48pm
rmgsxr wrote:
How about some what ifs?What if over the last 12 months Yamaha sold around 4300 YZ250F's and 3300 450's and during the same period there were...

How about some what ifs?

What if over the last 12 months Yamaha sold around 4300 YZ250F's and 3300 450's and during the same period there were 1600 350 MX bikes sold between the three colors? Would that get the bean counters in Japan all fired up to add another model to the lineup?  But wait, Yamaha sold around 1700 Yz125's and 1400 YZ85's. No way that Yamaha sold more 125 MX bikes than there were 350cc MX bikes sold. 

Now KTM did sell around 3000 300XC-W's(and 1500 Husqvarna TE300's). Maybe Yamaha should really focus on that model. 

But wait, Honda sold 12,000 CRF110F's during that same period. 

Seeing some of the real numbers can be eye opening for sure. 

wrc777 wrote:
Do those numbers include xc bikes for either company? Any idea if the Yamaha factory is tapped out at those build numbers? No point building a new...

Do those numbers include xc bikes for either company? 

Any idea if the Yamaha factory is tapped out at those build numbers? No point building a new model if the factory doesn’t have room. 

I agree on the 300 xcw. Those sell for more than mx bikes, and I bet they cost less to build than a four stroke. 

That is MX only. The last 12 months there have been more orange XC-F 350's sold than SX-F models buy about a 100 units. 

I'd bet that Yamaha could build more but it doesn't seem that the Japanese companies want to over do it on anything right now. 

Two stroke XC-W outsold XC by double. 

6/13/2025 7:13pm
LungButter wrote:

The extra inertia in the motor of the 450 makes them seem heavier and more tiring for most folks that I know.

Your mileage may vary.

Another good post. 450's feel so heavy to me now after getting off my 350

MX558 wrote:
I agree. I have a 15 KTM 350 and rode a 22 kx450 and a 24 kx450 and the 24 was slow as shit and heavy...

I agree. I have a 15 KTM 350 and rode a 22 kx450 and a 24 kx450 and the 24 was slow as shit and heavy while the 22 seemed just a little heavier and handled good. ( I had 2 19 kx450s and loved them) my 250 was definitely faster than the 24 kx

Thats funny you point out the Kawi. Last 450 I rode was a '24 Kawi and it felt like a total cow. So heavy

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Timo
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6/13/2025 8:47pm
Dirtdemon wrote:

In Sweden the rumors are no more KTM group 350 in 2027. 
Can´t be true I think...?!

Flatliner wrote:

One of their best selling bikes. 

It's sold so well It's gotten them all the way to bankruptcy...

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cwel11
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6/14/2025 3:40am
Dirtdemon wrote:

In Sweden the rumors are no more KTM group 350 in 2027. 
Can´t be true I think...?!

Flatliner wrote:

One of their best selling bikes. 

Timo wrote:

It's sold so well It's gotten them all the way to bankruptcy...

Yes the 350 caused all of it 🤦🏼‍♂️

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121x
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6/14/2025 5:35am

I agree with several of the previous posts. Personally, I think there is a strong market for a 350 from one or more of the Japanese brands.

How many riders are on KTM group 'only' because they are the 'single' manufacture with a 350 4-stroke line-up? How many riders are on 450's only because none of the Japanese brands manufacture a 350 and they do not want an Austrian bike?

The unfortunate thing in my mind, is that the manufactures likely do not care about the safety aspect. I am sure they know that 3/4 of the 450 owners would be better off on a 350. And I am sure a lot of existing 450 owners would go to a 350 if the Japanese manufactures offered one.  I don't think the Japanese manufactures care though - knowing that the 450s will continue to sell because they are the only show in town for a big(er) bore 4-stroke.So why invest into the 350 market? 

But to me the argument is, as stated above - how many riders are only on KTM/HSQ/GG because they are only 350 available.

tahoefd
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6/14/2025 6:34am
121x wrote:
I agree with several of the previous posts. Personally, I think there is a strong market for a 350 from one or more of the Japanese...

I agree with several of the previous posts. Personally, I think there is a strong market for a 350 from one or more of the Japanese brands.

How many riders are on KTM group 'only' because they are the 'single' manufacture with a 350 4-stroke line-up? How many riders are on 450's only because none of the Japanese brands manufacture a 350 and they do not want an Austrian bike?

The unfortunate thing in my mind, is that the manufactures likely do not care about the safety aspect. I am sure they know that 3/4 of the 450 owners would be better off on a 350. And I am sure a lot of existing 450 owners would go to a 350 if the Japanese manufactures offered one.  I don't think the Japanese manufactures care though - knowing that the 450s will continue to sell because they are the only show in town for a big(er) bore 4-stroke.So why invest into the 350 market? 

But to me the argument is, as stated above - how many riders are only on KTM/HSQ/GG because they are only 350 available.

But to me the argument is, as stated above - how many riders are only on KTM/HSQ/GG because they are only 350 available.

Here's one to start the count. I'd probably have a Yamaha 350f instead of my Husky. Though I have to say that the Husky is by far the best bike that I've ever owned.

6/14/2025 7:53am
121x wrote:
I agree with several of the previous posts. Personally, I think there is a strong market for a 350 from one or more of the Japanese...

I agree with several of the previous posts. Personally, I think there is a strong market for a 350 from one or more of the Japanese brands.

How many riders are on KTM group 'only' because they are the 'single' manufacture with a 350 4-stroke line-up? How many riders are on 450's only because none of the Japanese brands manufacture a 350 and they do not want an Austrian bike?

The unfortunate thing in my mind, is that the manufactures likely do not care about the safety aspect. I am sure they know that 3/4 of the 450 owners would be better off on a 350. And I am sure a lot of existing 450 owners would go to a 350 if the Japanese manufactures offered one.  I don't think the Japanese manufactures care though - knowing that the 450s will continue to sell because they are the only show in town for a big(er) bore 4-stroke.So why invest into the 350 market? 

But to me the argument is, as stated above - how many riders are only on KTM/HSQ/GG because they are only 350 available.

Yes but how many local a racers, regional pro or expert vets are really going to think going down 100cc will be more competitive?


If they abolished 450 everywhere then for sure, but  competitive competent 450 riders arnt going to want to downsize IMO.

You can restrict air box, change gearing, soft maps  etc So a 450 can be make more rideable if required. 

ithinkitsbroke
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6/14/2025 7:55am
tahoefd wrote:
But to me the argument is, as stated above - how many riders are only on KTM/HSQ/GG because they are only 350 available.Here's one to...

But to me the argument is, as stated above - how many riders are only on KTM/HSQ/GG because they are only 350 available.

Here's one to start the count. I'd probably have a Yamaha 350f instead of my Husky. Though I have to say that the Husky is by far the best bike that I've ever owned.

+1. I bled blue for 20 years.

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Flatliner
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6/14/2025 8:03am
Yes but how many local a racers, regional pro or expert vets are really going to think going down 100cc will be more competitive?If they abolished...

Yes but how many local a racers, regional pro or expert vets are really going to think going down 100cc will be more competitive?


If they abolished 450 everywhere then for sure, but  competitive competent 450 riders arnt going to want to downsize IMO.

You can restrict air box, change gearing, soft maps  etc So a 450 can be make more rideable if required. 

Depends how you ride too.  Some guys are throttle happy.

 

reynardfan1
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6/14/2025 8:55am

If you are just sitting around waiting for a Japanese company to build a 350 because you have some strange loyalty to them keep waiting


Meanwhile I’m riding the most amazing bike I’ve owned. Never has a machine lined up with my size, skill, and overall vibe. 

IMG 8131 3

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Mit12
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6/14/2025 9:07am

Untill the both MXGP and The US nationals make a 350 class why would the factories want to build one? 

Johnny Oz
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6/14/2025 9:10am
Mit12 wrote:

Untill the both MXGP and The US nationals make a 350 class why would the factories want to build one? 

Why did TC222 run a 350 in the 450 class for so long........ and win !

6/14/2025 10:34am
I love my KTM350. After some nifty aftermarket upgrades and full suspension, I'm holding onto her for quite awhile. Now, if a Japanese company came out...

I love my KTM350. After some nifty aftermarket upgrades and full suspension, I'm holding onto her for quite awhile. Now, if a Japanese company came out with a 350, I may change my tune? I liked my CRF450 handling compared to the 350, but I really enjoy the 350 power deliver after the Vortex by XPR and FMF pipe. 👌

I’m with you on this! I can’t imagine getting another bike unless the Japs start making 350’s. Hell,I like the looks of the Triumph too. But as of right now, the KTM350 is the best platform I have ever ridden for me. It is so good. I used to make fun of them and roast all my Vet buddies for riding them, LOOK AT ME NOW 🤣

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PRM31
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6/14/2025 2:48pm

KTM350 SX-F is only bike I considered (or the Husky) and I absolutely love it. A Yamaha 350, or maybe other Japanese brands, would tempt me to try, but no 250 or 450 really interestes me. I could go with a YZ250…

Johnny Oz
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6/14/2025 10:54pm

I'm too old and busted up, the KTM 350 does just not have enough grunt for my lazy riding, my RMZ450 works, would just like a little less crank gyro mass, a 400 would suit me for a grunter. If I want to go WFO, my YZ144 makes me feel 15 again :-)

Mit12
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6/15/2025 11:22am
Mit12 wrote:

Untill the both MXGP and The US nationals make a 350 class why would the factories want to build one? 

Johnny Oz wrote:

Why did TC222 run a 350 in the 450 class for so long........ and win !

Why did he stop racing it?

Racerman967
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6/15/2025 3:27pm

Pretty sure the Japanese brands have a gentleman agreement to not make one. Similar to their agreement on not making a car with more than 300hp in the 90’s that existed with Honda/Toyota/Nissan etc.

If the Japanese made them the 450 market would likely be crushed

soggy
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6/15/2025 5:07pm
Pretty sure the Japanese brands have a gentleman agreement to not make one. Similar to their agreement on not making a car with more than 300hp...

Pretty sure the Japanese brands have a gentleman agreement to not make one. Similar to their agreement on not making a car with more than 300hp in the 90’s that existed with Honda/Toyota/Nissan etc.

If the Japanese made them the 450 market would likely be crushed

‘We could make a product that most would probably think is better then what we make currently, but we won’t do it because it would probably be better then what we currently make’ is all I can think when I hear that reasoning. 

GateDropGoGo
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6/15/2025 5:17pm

If only it had a little more hold up in the pocket for those gigantic SX rhythm sections....Screenshot 20250613-123103.png?VersionId=VPIqwN7gPzFKkgfpfMq FqS7e0gY

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