No Eli Talk - just fitness and why your're wrong

soggy
Posts
8938
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
USA
5/29/2025 5:25pm
aees wrote:
So not really worth it for someone that's after a championship. Because it would not make or brake getting the title.You would do it, if that...

So not really worth it for someone that's after a championship. Because it would not make or brake getting the title.

You would do it, if that was The thing holding you back constantly. But for pretty much all of them, it's not. So it's a waste, and you risk your entire career. A career where few has made so much money, they can afford to risk it. The ones that has made money, don't need it.

It could we don’t know. You can’t speak in definitives here.

5/30/2025 2:47am
For the EPO curious, Armstrong said in a pod (maybe rich roll?) that EPO was a 10% boost on power. Keep in mind thats from a...

For the EPO curious, Armstrong said in a pod (maybe rich roll?) that EPO was a 10% boost on power. Keep in mind thats from a crank based power meter. Applying that to moto isnt going to be 10% better, because its less oxygen usage on a bicycle mostly seated. 

I think you’re the one on drugs. 

10% boost in power is a 10% boost in power. No matter what muscles you’re using. 

Besides, whilst I’m no expert, an absolute boost in ‘power’ is probably not the key benefit here. I’d guess it’s more about feeding the muscles more oxygen so they suffer less fatigue. 

Overall, I guess he could say he produced 10% more power across a ride, BECAUSE his muscles were less fatigued. 
 

APLMAN99
Posts
12751
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Tualatin, OR, USA
Fantasy
5/30/2025 4:21am
aees wrote:
No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has...

No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has such an impact on how a rider would perform.

Chance Hymas. (Assuming he isn’t already on some kind of program)He holeshot. He led. He had the fastest lap time of the race. He faded and finished...

Chance Hymas. 

(Assuming he isn’t already on some kind of program)

He holeshot. He led. He had the fastest lap time of the race. He faded and finished ten seconds + behind the winner. 

If Chance isn’t on PEDs already, if he took EPO he would fade less. He might not win. But he might not be 10 seconds behind either. 

McElrath seems like a guy who would benefit a few positions if he were on an elite doping regimen. Not necessarily move him up to championship level, but into a consistent 3-7 guy for sure. 

The big drop off that Ferrandis has had makes me wonder if he could have benefited from doping in order to maintain his overall speed through his injuries. He was a beast before and now it certainly looks like he’s lost his incredible ability to charge in the last half of races. Age?  Maybe. But if he were to start a serious regimen of PEDs, I think that he could roll back the clock for a couple of years and be a factor again. 

1
Goon645
Posts
385
Joined
10/3/2019
Location
Pyramid Valley, AQ
Fantasy
5/30/2025 7:10am

LOL missed this thread - honestly man, this will be the lableak theory of MX, all Deeg's fans will then look back at his performances and wonder how they didnt realise. When my fellow Vitards started posting their HR data in the other thread as though that is somehow an indication that they can exert themselves in the same way a professional mx athlete can I didnt bother with trying to then explain PERCEIVED vs ACTUAL effort. Doping allows the ACTUAL effort to maintain or only slightly drop off over a certain time period (Like 30+2). All the top 250 boys are redlining their heart rate the entire moto (Perceived effort is equal) but the doping allows actual effort to be maintained (like manhandling a 250 DEEP into a 30+2 thanks to the actual effort not dropping off) when your competitors' actual effort is dropping off like natural biology/thermodynamics dictates. Anyway - Why is thinking the family with a history of cheating and even celebrating law breaking as a PR stunt would likely be cheating in other ways that manifests in their beloved cretin blowing these dudes doors off at the end of each outdoor moto...If im wrong cool, but my hunch is saying otherwise is all....

9
7

The Shop

Dee38n
Posts
375
Joined
11/11/2020
Location
Asterisk, TX, USA
5/30/2025 7:24am
el_donn wrote:
Genetics are the answer. When in history have you ever seen Brian Deegan not in shape? Even in the late 90’s and early 2000’s the dude...

Genetics are the answer. When in history have you ever seen Brian Deegan not in shape? Even in the late 90’s and early 2000’s the dude was shredded and that was before physical training was a mainstay in moto like it is now, especially freestyle. Plus the dude was probably partying quite a bit and still looked more fit than 95% of dudes out there. Now look at his son who has the same genetics, apparently the same if not better work ethic and started training at an incredibly young age. It’s not that hard to comprehend. Do some guys use PED’s in moto? Maybe. But I cant see him risking a lifetime’s worth of work when he already has a solid base, an insane amount of talent and the resources he has had growing up. 

So for starters, Marty Smith wasnt in shape but Brian Deegan is...

Delusional thinking that the top riders of the past weren't all in

Read up on what Bob Hannah had to do beat this guy and stay the guy

 

MARTYSMITHTEENIDOL
9
Tyler D
Posts
2421
Joined
12/5/2022
Location
La, CA, USA
5/30/2025 7:50am Edited Date/Time 5/30/2025 7:52am
Goon645 wrote:
LOL missed this thread - honestly man, this will be the lableak theory of MX, all Deeg's fans will then look back at his performances and...

LOL missed this thread - honestly man, this will be the lableak theory of MX, all Deeg's fans will then look back at his performances and wonder how they didnt realise. When my fellow Vitards started posting their HR data in the other thread as though that is somehow an indication that they can exert themselves in the same way a professional mx athlete can I didnt bother with trying to then explain PERCEIVED vs ACTUAL effort. Doping allows the ACTUAL effort to maintain or only slightly drop off over a certain time period (Like 30+2). All the top 250 boys are redlining their heart rate the entire moto (Perceived effort is equal) but the doping allows actual effort to be maintained (like manhandling a 250 DEEP into a 30+2 thanks to the actual effort not dropping off) when your competitors' actual effort is dropping off like natural biology/thermodynamics dictates. Anyway - Why is thinking the family with a history of cheating and even celebrating law breaking as a PR stunt would likely be cheating in other ways that manifests in their beloved cretin blowing these dudes doors off at the end of each outdoor moto...If im wrong cool, but my hunch is saying otherwise is all....

Apt analogy. Roidgut...

 

Someone further up the thread called DEEGS efficient with his energy. LOL

2
1
5/30/2025 1:33pm
To know who is doping in MX is impossible without a PED test.  There are outliers in human performance as has been the case in sports...

To know who is doping in MX is impossible without a PED test.  There are outliers in human performance as has been the case in sports going back thousands of years, all the time and everywhere.  Just because they kick everyone’s ass isn’t proof they are doping.  A lot of people have had theirs asses kicked by that one guy (in all competitive sports) way before PED’s were discovered.

 

UpTiTe wrote:

They’ve been doping in sports since the 50s. 

There are plenty of tells if you know what to look for. 

I’m sure there are many tells to someone who has knowledge about PED’s.  Unfortunately, it gets boiled down to one thing in these discussions… those who are winning by a wide margin must be doping and that’s where I think it gets messy.

Winning isn’t evidence of PED use in MX.

I think guys like Tomac, Jett, RC, Stew, MC are just that good.  You can pull up videos of RC and Stew racing as youths.  They beat their competitors at 12 years old by a wide margin.  It’s no surprise to me they did it as adults too.  I don’t feel a need to accuse them of cheating with the only evidence being their dominance.    

4
1
Flatliner
Posts
4297
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
5/30/2025 1:48pm
I’m sure there are many tells to someone who has knowledge about PED’s.  Unfortunately, it gets boiled down to one thing in these discussions… those who...

I’m sure there are many tells to someone who has knowledge about PED’s.  Unfortunately, it gets boiled down to one thing in these discussions… those who are winning by a wide margin must be doping and that’s where I think it gets messy.

Winning isn’t evidence of PED use in MX.

I think guys like Tomac, Jett, RC, Stew, MC are just that good.  You can pull up videos of RC and Stew racing as youths.  They beat their competitors at 12 years old by a wide margin.  It’s no surprise to me they did it as adults too.  I don’t feel a need to accuse them of cheating with the only evidence being their dominance.    

There's tells for an average guy who's running a cycle, but less so for an elite guy because if they're doing it , it's with doctor help and guidance.  They aren't going to wing it.

If say, the tell for epo was hardly looking out of breath after a race, we'd have a problem.  But it's not so simple.

2
zippytech
Posts
1511
Joined
9/8/2018
Location
Bethesda, OH, USA
5/30/2025 3:50pm

Being the fittest and the strongest don't always win it all.

Boggins
Posts
413
Joined
7/30/2019
Location
Hermosa Beach, CA, USA
5/30/2025 3:57pm

NFL, NBA, MLB, TRACK, Olympics, SOCCER, CYCLING, BOXING, MMA, Gymnastics, TENNIS,  plus all other professional sports......are competing for millions of $$ and every athlete is looking for that 1% edge.  

Talent alone is not enough to win Championships,  Need ability to go 110% for 30 + 2 or 25 min main event at 180 HRate.  

Victor Conte, Balco, Netflix series Hall of Shame:  our goal was to improve our athletes by 1/10th of 1.00%.  

If the Top 5 are doing it, the Top 10 have to do it, so the Top 15 have to do it, so the Top 20 have to do it.  Starts in high school, progresses.

Moto is no exception.  

2
1
mca90guitar
Posts
68
Joined
8/14/2024
Location
Windsor, NY, USA
5/30/2025 5:15pm
Chance Hymas showed last week that he can go as fast as Deegs. But he couldn’t sustain it. So what if Hymas was to use EPO? Would he...

Chance Hymas showed last week that he can go as fast as Deegs. 

But he couldn’t sustain it. 

So what if Hymas was to use EPO? Would he have more stamina? Go for longer? Possibly win? 

To say two riders have the exact same level of fitness is, as you say hugely unlikely. But they’re all extremely close once you get to the top tiers of a sport. 
No one rider/trainer is getting it that wrong they’ll be that far off. 

Happy not to argue. Interested to discuss.. 

 

Hymas is the one I question the most. The dude faded hard every moto and than they "changed his diet". His super secret diet that made him a podium guy that doesn't fade nearly as hard.   

3
1
dang472
Posts
618
Joined
6/26/2014
Location
Kingston, IL, USA
Fantasy
5/30/2025 6:03pm

Got any doping or other cheats for a family fun 5k? I need to shave about 30 seconds off my PR to make it on the podium in my age group. Shits getting serious.

3
Tyler D
Posts
2421
Joined
12/5/2022
Location
La, CA, USA
5/30/2025 7:03pm
dang472 wrote:
Got any doping or other cheats for a family fun 5k? I need to shave about 30 seconds off my PR to make it on the...

Got any doping or other cheats for a family fun 5k? I need to shave about 30 seconds off my PR to make it on the podium in my age group. Shits getting serious.

1
5/30/2025 7:16pm
To know who is doping in MX is impossible without a PED test.  There are outliers in human performance as has been the case in sports...

To know who is doping in MX is impossible without a PED test.  There are outliers in human performance as has been the case in sports going back thousands of years, all the time and everywhere.  Just because they kick everyone’s ass isn’t proof they are doping.  A lot of people have had theirs asses kicked by that one guy (in all competitive sports) way before PED’s were discovered.

 

UpTiTe wrote:

They’ve been doping in sports since the 50s. 

There are plenty of tells if you know what to look for. 

I’m sure there are many tells to someone who has knowledge about PED’s.  Unfortunately, it gets boiled down to one thing in these discussions… those who...

I’m sure there are many tells to someone who has knowledge about PED’s.  Unfortunately, it gets boiled down to one thing in these discussions… those who are winning by a wide margin must be doping and that’s where I think it gets messy.

Winning isn’t evidence of PED use in MX.

I think guys like Tomac, Jett, RC, Stew, MC are just that good.  You can pull up videos of RC and Stew racing as youths.  They beat their competitors at 12 years old by a wide margin.  It’s no surprise to me they did it as adults too.  I don’t feel a need to accuse them of cheating with the only evidence being their dominance.    

What if I told you o know for a fact, one or more of them took something at one time or another? 

2
dang472
Posts
618
Joined
6/26/2014
Location
Kingston, IL, USA
Fantasy
5/30/2025 7:18pm

Obviously I was kidding but damn it makes sense that anywhere there’s competition, there’s cheating. I knew an old machinist that had tricks to modify pinewood derby cars to win Boy Scouts races. I can’t imagine putting in the hours of cycling, mile of running, and countless laps at the practice track and not being tempted to push the limits of supplements and PEDs.

4
5/30/2025 8:09pm
Hymas is the one I question the most. The dude faded hard every moto and than they "changed his diet". His super secret diet that made...

Hymas is the one I question the most. The dude faded hard every moto and than they "changed his diet". His super secret diet that made him a podium guy that doesn't fade nearly as hard.   

Going from a poor diet to a proper diet can provide massive gains. I would not be surprised if a teenage boy wasn’t following a recommended plan and then decided to give it an honest attempt and saw a huge change. 

5
1
jmo443
Posts
1840
Joined
4/5/2019
Location
USA
5/30/2025 9:14pm
TbonesPop wrote:
No amount of doping is going to help a rider with throttle control, braking technique, ability to scrub, and corner speed.  It absolutely won't do anything...

No amount of doping is going to help a rider with throttle control, braking technique, ability to scrub, and corner speed.  It absolutely won't do anything for a rider's ability to find the fastest lines on an ever-changing MX track and be able to adjust to a track changing throughout the race and still being able to find the fastest lines.  Fitness isn't what holds the regular top 5-15 place guys from being top 5 or top 3.  It's technique, talent, skill, experience and what's between the ears.  No PED on the market is going to be a magic pill to make top 5-15 guys be top 3.

Totally missing the point. Take Two riders. With very similar, if not the same level of fitness and skill. One goes on a EPO programme, the other stays natural. Is...

Totally missing the point. 

Take Two riders.

 With very similar, if not the same level of fitness and skill. 

One goes on a EPO programme, the other stays natural. 

Is there a benefit? 

When EPO increases red blood cell production, oxygen supply to muscles is enhanced. This increases stamina – the ability to exert energy and remain active for a long period of time.

TbonesPop wrote:
No, I didn't miss the point.  I just don't believe one rider to the next will have the exact same level of skill and talent -...

No, I didn't miss the point.  I just don't believe one rider to the next will have the exact same level of skill and talent - no two riders have the exact same skill set.  I believe the top 0.1% of riders at the Pro MX/SX level are differentiated by skill and talent over fitness, and no I don't believe having more fitness via an advantage from a pill will fix at talent deficiency with respect to throttle control, corner speed, line choice, race craft, braking, scrub skill, etc. 

Can a magic pill take a regular LCQ rider and make him to the top 10-15?  Ok, maybe - because the skills of the riders at that level are more common.  But is Kevin Moranz going to take a magic pill and turn into Jett Lawrence?  No, he's not.  Good luck proving that.

If you are looking for an argument, look elsewhere.  Nobody wins an argument.  Both people walk away thinking they are right and the other person is wrong.   I'm perfectly fine walking away from the discussion.  You're not going to change my mind.

To much to read on your last response. But can you not agree a 5th place guy is completely different than a 15th? 5th is a lot closer to 3rd and 15th is a lot closer to 21st… I do think any small advantage helps. It’s like saying you have a ya 125 and it’s faster than the Honda 125 profess owns…

Kenny Banyan
Posts
4585
Joined
6/2/2024
Location
Seattle, WA, USA
5/31/2025 6:00pm
So the Eli convo devolved to DNGR doping, rider fitness, and some showin out about how fit we are. Here's a place for you to voice your...

So the Eli convo devolved to DNGR doping, rider fitness, and some showin out about how fit we are. 

Here's a place for you to voice your thoughts and get told wh your wrong. 

I'll go first. 

Genetics matter more than anything else. 

Go.... 

I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with an unparalleled work ethic , mental game and Championship race craft.

1
5/31/2025 7:31pm
So the Eli convo devolved to DNGR doping, rider fitness, and some showin out about how fit we are. Here's a place for you to voice your...

So the Eli convo devolved to DNGR doping, rider fitness, and some showin out about how fit we are. 

Here's a place for you to voice your thoughts and get told wh your wrong. 

I'll go first. 

Genetics matter more than anything else. 

Go.... 

I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with...

I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with an unparalleled work ethic , mental game and Championship race craft.

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized on what he was born with.

Some people are born savants.  Could be playing the piano, drawing, mathematics, or whatever.  No amount of practice or dedication can make me Picasso or Beethoven.  RC’s talent was riding a dirt bike and couldn’t be beat.  10 championships and 2 perfect seasons.

Those reasons are why I don’t think it’s fair to accuse riders of doping only based on their dominance.  Some people are just that good.  We see standouts in every single aspect of life-physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.  It’s not a level playing field when it comes to talent in the first place.

This thread hasn't convinced me otherwise.  A few people stated there are “tells” to know if someone is doping but refuse to specifically say what those tells are.  They just make a claim that they “know” but say nothing to support their accusations.

All that doesn’t mean I don’t think doping takes place in MX.  We would be naive to think otherwise.  I’m only saying winning isn’t proof of who is doing it and it’s always only the winners who are unjustifiably put in the spotlight.   

3
Kenny Banyan
Posts
4585
Joined
6/2/2024
Location
Seattle, WA, USA
5/31/2025 8:00pm
RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized...

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized on what he was born with.

Some people are born savants.  Could be playing the piano, drawing, mathematics, or whatever.  No amount of practice or dedication can make me Picasso or Beethoven.  RC’s talent was riding a dirt bike and couldn’t be beat.  10 championships and 2 perfect seasons.

Those reasons are why I don’t think it’s fair to accuse riders of doping only based on their dominance.  Some people are just that good.  We see standouts in every single aspect of life-physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.  It’s not a level playing field when it comes to talent in the first place.

This thread hasn't convinced me otherwise.  A few people stated there are “tells” to know if someone is doping but refuse to specifically say what those tells are.  They just make a claim that they “know” but say nothing to support their accusations.

All that doesn’t mean I don’t think doping takes place in MX.  We would be naive to think otherwise.  I’m only saying winning isn’t proof of who is doing it and it’s always only the winners who are unjustifiably put in the spotlight.   

Good arguments.👍🏻💯

MotoDad32
Posts
244
Joined
7/23/2017
Location
Beverly Hills, CA, USA
6/1/2025 3:57am
RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized...

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized on what he was born with.

Some people are born savants.  Could be playing the piano, drawing, mathematics, or whatever.  No amount of practice or dedication can make me Picasso or Beethoven.  RC’s talent was riding a dirt bike and couldn’t be beat.  10 championships and 2 perfect seasons.

Those reasons are why I don’t think it’s fair to accuse riders of doping only based on their dominance.  Some people are just that good.  We see standouts in every single aspect of life-physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.  It’s not a level playing field when it comes to talent in the first place.

This thread hasn't convinced me otherwise.  A few people stated there are “tells” to know if someone is doping but refuse to specifically say what those tells are.  They just make a claim that they “know” but say nothing to support their accusations.

All that doesn’t mean I don’t think doping takes place in MX.  We would be naive to think otherwise.  I’m only saying winning isn’t proof of who is doing it and it’s always only the winners who are unjustifiably put in the spotlight.   

Everything you wrote above could have been written about Lance Armstrong vs RC.  Look how that turned out.  And remember, LA's dominant era overlapped Lance Armstrong's almost exactly (1999-2005 for LA, 2000-2006 for RC).  

The 'tells' are unparalleled endurance abilities in the rider, faster recovery times between motos, flu-like symptoms (as a side-effect), evasive or secretive behavior, etc.  Read up on EPO and it's use by competitive athletes to learn more.  Obviously none of these signs alone prove EPO use, only anti-doping and longitudinal blood monitoring can confirm abuse.

1
1
6/1/2025 4:00am

Am I recalling correctly or am I making this up? 

2008 MXoN- some teams saying they’ll only go if there’s no drug testing?! 

6/1/2025 4:08am

Am I recalling correctly or am I making this up? 

2008 MXoN- some teams saying they’ll only go if there’s no drug testing?! 

Which current rider keeps avoiding the MXoN?

4
1
Timo
Posts
1479
Joined
1/9/2021
Location
Wichita, KS, USA
6/1/2025 6:29am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2025 6:30am
So the Eli convo devolved to DNGR doping, rider fitness, and some showin out about how fit we are. Here's a place for you to voice your...

So the Eli convo devolved to DNGR doping, rider fitness, and some showin out about how fit we are. 

Here's a place for you to voice your thoughts and get told wh your wrong. 

I'll go first. 

Genetics matter more than anything else. 

Go.... 

I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with...

I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with an unparalleled work ethic , mental game and Championship race craft.

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized...

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized on what he was born with.

Some people are born savants.  Could be playing the piano, drawing, mathematics, or whatever.  No amount of practice or dedication can make me Picasso or Beethoven.  RC’s talent was riding a dirt bike and couldn’t be beat.  10 championships and 2 perfect seasons.

Those reasons are why I don’t think it’s fair to accuse riders of doping only based on their dominance.  Some people are just that good.  We see standouts in every single aspect of life-physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.  It’s not a level playing field when it comes to talent in the first place.

This thread hasn't convinced me otherwise.  A few people stated there are “tells” to know if someone is doping but refuse to specifically say what those tells are.  They just make a claim that they “know” but say nothing to support their accusations.

All that doesn’t mean I don’t think doping takes place in MX.  We would be naive to think otherwise.  I’m only saying winning isn’t proof of who is doing it and it’s always only the winners who are unjustifiably put in the spotlight.   

There's also multiple reports that RC could handle more work load than anyone else. I'm not saying that he did or didn't use anything, but genetically he was apparently like the Martin brothers. 

On another note, if you listen to the story of most of these guys coming up through the ranks, living in motorhomes, parents selling everything, family livelihood depending on the results... Everyone of you would do whatever was necessary to make it. Look at all the middle age guys getting on testosterone just to impress the office ladies. Mid life crisis now includes 6 packs and pec flexing. "I had low energy bro, had to get on it..."

2
1
Kenny Banyan
Posts
4585
Joined
6/2/2024
Location
Seattle, WA, USA
6/1/2025 7:49am
I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with...

I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with an unparalleled work ethic , mental game and Championship race craft.

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized...

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized on what he was born with.

Some people are born savants.  Could be playing the piano, drawing, mathematics, or whatever.  No amount of practice or dedication can make me Picasso or Beethoven.  RC’s talent was riding a dirt bike and couldn’t be beat.  10 championships and 2 perfect seasons.

Those reasons are why I don’t think it’s fair to accuse riders of doping only based on their dominance.  Some people are just that good.  We see standouts in every single aspect of life-physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.  It’s not a level playing field when it comes to talent in the first place.

This thread hasn't convinced me otherwise.  A few people stated there are “tells” to know if someone is doping but refuse to specifically say what those tells are.  They just make a claim that they “know” but say nothing to support their accusations.

All that doesn’t mean I don’t think doping takes place in MX.  We would be naive to think otherwise.  I’m only saying winning isn’t proof of who is doing it and it’s always only the winners who are unjustifiably put in the spotlight.   

Timo wrote:
There's also multiple reports that RC could handle more work load than anyone else. I'm not saying that he did or didn't use anything, but genetically...

There's also multiple reports that RC could handle more work load than anyone else. I'm not saying that he did or didn't use anything, but genetically he was apparently like the Martin brothers. 

On another note, if you listen to the story of most of these guys coming up through the ranks, living in motorhomes, parents selling everything, family livelihood depending on the results... Everyone of you would do whatever was necessary to make it. Look at all the middle age guys getting on testosterone just to impress the office ladies. Mid life crisis now includes 6 packs and pec flexing. "I had low energy bro, had to get on it..."

Middle aged guys on trt is a great point, never thought of it like that 

Flatliner
Posts
4297
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
6/1/2025 7:55am
I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with...

I would agree if everything else is equal. That said,Just about everyone that RC lined up against had better Genetics. RC made up for that with an unparalleled work ethic , mental game and Championship race craft.

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized...

RC had a lot of special things going on that couldn’t be learned.  I think he was a generational talent.  Hard work and competitiveness simply capitalized on what he was born with.

Some people are born savants.  Could be playing the piano, drawing, mathematics, or whatever.  No amount of practice or dedication can make me Picasso or Beethoven.  RC’s talent was riding a dirt bike and couldn’t be beat.  10 championships and 2 perfect seasons.

Those reasons are why I don’t think it’s fair to accuse riders of doping only based on their dominance.  Some people are just that good.  We see standouts in every single aspect of life-physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.  It’s not a level playing field when it comes to talent in the first place.

This thread hasn't convinced me otherwise.  A few people stated there are “tells” to know if someone is doping but refuse to specifically say what those tells are.  They just make a claim that they “know” but say nothing to support their accusations.

All that doesn’t mean I don’t think doping takes place in MX.  We would be naive to think otherwise.  I’m only saying winning isn’t proof of who is doing it and it’s always only the winners who are unjustifiably put in the spotlight.   

Timo wrote:
There's also multiple reports that RC could handle more work load than anyone else. I'm not saying that he did or didn't use anything, but genetically...

There's also multiple reports that RC could handle more work load than anyone else. I'm not saying that he did or didn't use anything, but genetically he was apparently like the Martin brothers. 

On another note, if you listen to the story of most of these guys coming up through the ranks, living in motorhomes, parents selling everything, family livelihood depending on the results... Everyone of you would do whatever was necessary to make it. Look at all the middle age guys getting on testosterone just to impress the office ladies. Mid life crisis now includes 6 packs and pec flexing. "I had low energy bro, had to get on it..."

Interesting take...... are you against trt personally? Or think the benefits are overrated?

 

Asking as a trt user.

1
GrapeApe
Posts
8991
Joined
6/7/2010
Location
Mc Kinney, TX, USA
6/1/2025 10:29am
UpTiTe wrote:

They’ve been doping in sports since the 50s. 

There are plenty of tells if you know what to look for. 

I’m sure there are many tells to someone who has knowledge about PED’s.  Unfortunately, it gets boiled down to one thing in these discussions… those who...

I’m sure there are many tells to someone who has knowledge about PED’s.  Unfortunately, it gets boiled down to one thing in these discussions… those who are winning by a wide margin must be doping and that’s where I think it gets messy.

Winning isn’t evidence of PED use in MX.

I think guys like Tomac, Jett, RC, Stew, MC are just that good.  You can pull up videos of RC and Stew racing as youths.  They beat their competitors at 12 years old by a wide margin.  It’s no surprise to me they did it as adults too.  I don’t feel a need to accuse them of cheating with the only evidence being their dominance.    

UpTiTe wrote:

What if I told you o know for a fact, one or more of them took something at one time or another? 

I for one would believe you, since one of them was popped and served a suspension. lol

 

1
Timo
Posts
1479
Joined
1/9/2021
Location
Wichita, KS, USA
6/1/2025 12:26pm
Flatliner wrote:

Interesting take...... are you against trt personally? Or think the benefits are overrated?

 

Asking as a trt user.

Personally I think it's over prescribed, people in the military figured out long ago that you just needed a doctor to say you had low t, lots of 18-22 year olds use it. Now the middle age men figured it out. If you're going to use it just say you want it, don't make some excuse about having low testosterone. 

1

Post a reply to: No Eli Talk - just fitness and why your're wrong

The Latest