Upgrade to enjoy this feature!
Vital MX fantasy is free to play, but Premium users receive great benefits. Premium benefits include:
- View and download rider stats
- Pick trends
- Create a private league
- And more!
Only $10 for all 2026 SX, MX, and SMX series.
Wasn't AP7 running AER outdoors last year?
Thanks crc245.
I have played around with it a little bit. I will admit I haven't done enough side x side testing with the TC to feel the difference.
Isn't HSTC1 less traction control (more wheel slip) than HSTC3? Do I have that backwards?
youve read a lot into little
AER is far from "unrideable" but it does have an issue that nearly ALL honest reviewers have mentioned even if they do not know whats causing it
AND if you think that KTM is running a completely stock cartrage I have some swamp land to sell ya
The design has merit and it works. However the oft complained about crust they have is a real issue that I personally have measured both on bike and on the bench. There is no mystery here. The coil system neatly sidesteps the sticky seal head issue in AER and that is at least a solid part of what so many feel as a noticeably more plush fork when they convert
Also I find AER seems to work much better at initial plushness so long as ya stay below about 132psi. Fine for many but I needed 150+ to get reasonable hold up
Also a bit of crust actually works for fast guys. It will rattle ya untill ya get up to speed where your blowing through it easily. I have felt this many times. Its the inconsistency track to track that I hated.
Ive seen that vid.
I disagree with their assessment, seems to me they simply had the chain too tight
The chain has to be run looser on the new chassis as the angle between countershaft/swing pivot/rear axil is more than on the 2016-22 chassis. This was done to combat the squat issue the older chassis had (quite an issue btw especially on SX style high G power on situations)
You do have to run a very loose chain to avoid the bind. I run about 50mm on the old chassis BUT ya need about 70 + to avoid bind on the new chassis.
The Shop
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
Free shipping: VITALMX
You have it correct: One is least aggressive engagement, two is middle, three is most TC actuation. 3 almost feels like the clutch is slipping to me, while one is barely detectable and simply takes some ‘edge’ off. All good to test, and the price is right!
I hear ya. Im in NY and its like 12 degrees right now ha
I would like to talk in the spring unless ya somehow get a thaw and ya get some info before then
Its funny, 15 years ago, people were horrified to open up the rmz shock to find a rubber x ring piston that had loads of stiction on the bench. Most tuners replaced it with a standard piston because they didn't understand showa had designed it this way, and it was a trickle down works part! The design was to isolated the comp and rebound circuit, like the special rave tech piston valve nut.
The pit bits pictures were interesting, since the aer forks on the ktms did look stock, albeit the caps and lugs.
Anyhow, best of luck with setting your bike. The only problem I've ever had with any of my bikes was the rider. 😉
yea I find you can get away with a LOT more sticky nonsense in a shock than ya can in a fork. waaayy more
in the AER fork the seal head would actually chatter in initial move. Swap to the well broken in cartrage and it was wayy better, then to the coil and noticably better still
Honda also claimed the twin pipes (when they debuted) balanced the bike in roll axis…like we’re flying aerobatics with a CRF…😂
well I suppose it does but to what effect? simply saying a technical truth doesnt tell ya much and in this case the twins went they way of tha dodo for a good reason
Sales dept thrives on our ignorance
The more preload the more force is required to initiate shock motion. Stock spring is too soft for 180+lb rider.
The AER's downfall is the same that makes it less offensive. To be the best it can be an air fork needs more than one pressure adjustment. The TAC fork does not suffer in this regard but is more of a pain to set. The crust is real but if set up correctly is insignificant when it comes to MX/SX.
I hope its that easy...
Correct me if wrong here but seems to me regardless of spring rate (within reason) it takes the same amount of force to hold up a given weight(rider) a given amount (sag). A stiffer spring with less preload OR a softer spring with more preload BOTH adjusted for same sag have the exact same spring force applyed to chassis at that exact point
However now once in motion and hitting bumps (compressing spring) the stiffer spring has a higher rate and will be felt as stiffer
I have experimented with a bunch of different spring rates on my KTM. The stiffer springs always feel more harsh
NOW understand here Im not talking about the necessity for stiffer springs for heavyer guys at speed. Of course ya need more spring rate here
BUT
Im talking about a harshness thats obvious waaayyy before you even get to a point where ya need more hold up. The Honda has a harshness in the rear thats felt no matter what speed your at. Far away from blowing through the stroke and riddig too low or in the harsh part of the links curve
I agree the designs simplicity means ya cannot get the performace of a more complex design like the tripple chamber
However the seal head sticktion / chatter is a problem most have not done enough homework on to know
AND
the "crust" inherent in the simpler AER design only worsens with higher pressures that MX needs. As well there are other factors at play like a non linear air spring AND even what looks like a non linear damp characture designed in to the piston/shims to follow that springs curve
Set up "properly" assumes the design has no issues. My experience so far says quite different
That said the fork imo is trully great when air pressures are below about 135. Above there it only gets worse
On the spring rate: Negative.
The formula is F=Kx; where F is the force applied, K is the spring rate and x is the displacement of the spring.
The preload adjustment does just that - pre-tensions the spring to resist inital movement but the force required to move it each additional unit is constant.
Hope it helps.
EDIT: looks like your original comments have been changed, so this may or may not help.
Im not sure we are talking about the same thing
I was replying to the earlier comment you made about the spring getting stiffer as it compresses.
That would only apply on a varibale rate spring, not a straight rate like on the CR.
It's gone now in the latest edit.
So my father raced road and Mt bikes for years. In that arena they really know about frame flex characture and its effect on handling and feel. He suspects it may be more a chassis issue on the Honda as well BUT admitidly we just dont know
Heres a vid thats interesting. I dont nessasarily think this guy has it right that the frame is too stiff? Maybe it is BUT in my experience with structural issues on any object, a too soft structure can have uncontrolled wiggles that will feel harsh to touch and will make you think its because its too stiff.
Anyway heres a bicycle riders perspective for what its worth??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaGIYAujQjE
Pit Row
Also want to add another Yamaha comparison. I spent time on the 2025 YZF250. I absolutely loved the way that bike handled. It felt similar to the 2025 Honda 450 to me and is why I bought the 450 Yamaha. I was under no illusions that the 450 would handle as well as the 250 BUT it supposedly had same chassis so I figured it couldn't be that far off at least when the throttle wasn't screwed on full. NOPE
Ive ridden a lot of bikes both 250 and 450 version and sure they are always quite different but not as much as these two were for me anyway.
Also want to add that when I say the Honda turns better what I really mean is it turns differently. The Honda lets me angulate, the yamahoa fights that move and seems to want you to lean body same amount as bike. I like to angulate more like people do when they are skiing. Upper body more straight up with lower body angulated. Similar on a bike, upper body straighter up with bike and lower body angulated more. The 450 Yamaha likes the faster , sweeping, down hill race style where bike and body leaned more to same angle. The Honda likes the slalom style quick moves .
Off topic, but did you compare the 25 yz250f to 25 crf250r ?
Thank you I have been thinking the same thing and not saying it and this applies to all brands not just Honda
Ive got a rube goldberg setup installed as crude troubleshooting test. need some time to test yet
The honda has a flexable plastic strap at front of gas tank that Im using as a "flexure" style pivot. The rear of gas tank in now suspended on an elastomer and has about 1/2 inch travel. The front of the seat sits on the tank an so rides on that suspension. This to simulate Yamahas setup that uses a well damped and flexy gas tank that the front to mid section of their seat sits on,
The mid section of the seat is now ridding on some elastic foam (between seat on frame rails. Front seat bolts removed so seat can move, I have a few different densities and types of foam to try) And that finishes the seat suspension. All duck taped together
Ha sounds like lot of work but no just a quick crude easily adjustable/change setup to try and isolate seat from the sub frame
Long shot but just trying to isolate a bit and see what is learned
All this input is great. I've got a 23 CRF450R and after the first ride I felt like I got run over by a garbage truck. Since then I've gotten new clamps and had the suspension done by GB. I'm literally praying this helps😆 Probably doesn't help that I've got a 24 YZ450F that's super plush.
"GB"? who that?
I defiantly want to hear if the suspension mods made a useful difference. Will you be testing any time soon?
Yea having the yamaha next the the honda sure doesnt help ha. I often put my first laps in on the honda, as soon as I jump on the yamaha its obvious that the honda was beating my ass up. Its like a second wind on the blue bike BUT I immediately miss the hondas agility
For sure some of the issue is just suspension BUT I just dont know how much.
Chassis looks dialed in tonight.
no but plan too this spring
the guy I know with one has told be he feels a harshness compared to his friends bikes. Not sure what they are ridding
do U mean Jett?
Seemed to me he was having trouble
Probably means Graham Brough (sp?).
Try going to a taller sidewall tire in the rear. I went from the stock 120/80-19 to a 120/90-19 and that helped a little. I'm battling the same harsh feeling in the rear too. It's felt the most in acceleration bumps coming out of a corner. Small chop gives harsh feedback through the rear of the frame. I'm considering a revalve to relieve the issue.
if ya do please report back
so far we have 3 that have or are revalving this bike for this issue on this thred. Would be great useful info for owners of this bike if all report back
what they found.
Post a reply to: Honda CRF Chassis harshness