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To the op..
I felt the same about my 21we. I dont think much has really changed in that feel department since. Bought a 23 yam and after about an hours worth of riding, i got used to the initial different feel. Long story short, both of my bikes i mentioned were stolen. Picked up a 23sr as my first kawi in 29 years of moto. Great for play riding but too lethargic in the handling department even changing clamp offset. Back at 24 yam and i literally love that i feel like i have the best of both worlds. Id argue to say that i can turn the yz just as well as the crf and the compliance and feel with the kyb stuff is a great recipe for me. Plus I like my cable clutch with WC perch the best for all around feel. Ive even been riding the yam with stock suspension which is definitely undersprung for me. Ill admit i didn't do clamps or mounts on my crf, but i did have FC do their thing with the suspension and still felt it too harsh unless in pure sand.
thanks for that
My experiences dealing with structural resonances has me VERY skeptical that suspension mods are the answer to the CRFs frame harshness that so many perceive as a "rigid frame". Its not nearly as rigid a frame as the yamaha and we all know the story on that bike is the opposite. YES the yamahas suspension is superior BUT I have blown the hondas damps wide open and even ridding in the pits you can still feel this harshness.
A well behaved structure can be pinged hard and it will not wiggle back n forth a bunch and perhaps even more important the first negative going oscillation of the structure will be quite small. In other words the wiggle after the first impact is small and dies out quickly. With loudspeakers this is called a "fast" sound BTW as it is tight and clean with no overhang(rigging). Think tight bass vs muddy bass. This is heard easily by our ears as a muddy blurry sound OR sometimes as a "harshness" in the sound.
I find similar perception in what ya feel. An example would be like when ya hit a baseball on the wrong part of the bat. Ouch. BUT hit it in the sweet spot and the bat hardly rings at all and your hands have a plush ride.
Im sure FC does a great job on the Hondas suspension BUT Im concerned that no matter how perfect the dampers we may still be fighting an uncontrolled whip in the frame.
Ive tyet to have anyone come right out and say YES this or that suspension mod will fix the harshness. The same problems happened after two seasons and 20 or so revalves, links, and sset up changes on the 2022sxf450. It just seems to have a poorly controlled action somewhere in the chassis
I sometimes wonder if this phenom isnt actually in the subframe? The front 3/4 of the Yamaha seat actually sits mostly on the gas tank, not the subframe. That gas tank is a soft flexy plastic structure with good self damping, where as the honda seat sits directly on the subframe tubes.
I tryed a crude "return on energy" test of the two by placing a thick wooden block on top of each structure and hitting with a 5 lb hammer to see how high the hammer bounces. The yamaha setup showed very good energy absorbsion as the hammer barly bounced and only once. The honda however sent that hammer 2-3 times higher AND it bounced a few times.
Yes very crude and may mean little but I may do a bunch of crude subframe experiments before I shell out more money. I have doubts but doing crude experaments can lead ya to the source quickly
We know the hype of the 2021 was not justified. Sounds like the hype of the 2025 is on the rocks.
Interesting the frame is near identical on the 250 and the complaints far fewer.
I duno about that first sentence. I did really like my Honda and definitely felt it a gigantic improvement over the previous gen. I had a 17 for a bit and did all the missing bolt tricks on that too. However, i love the new gen yams even better, obviously. Any of the twitchiness i read about on the new yam makes me question things because ive been 3rd licked in places at red bud and 4th at some other tracks and have had no twitch. Im also bigger at 215+ so that may help.
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thats interesting, so far Ive only gotten a twitch on the new yamaha but not the new honda. My friends 1018 honda however is a handful. Seems to me Honda may have done somthing good in the stability dept on the new bike
most of the complaining I hear is from older guys and guys that get to bounce from bike to bike. The youger guys on 250 are made of rubber ha
You had your bike 20 times. Seriously?
Not had but did
All the revalves , links, springs, setups, etc were done by me. I was doing both fork and shock revalves twice a week for most of the season. Got so I could pull shock , revalve, and be back on track in an hour. Restokor spread sheet was my tool to see the damp curve changes. Try more progressive, more digressive, more linear, stiffer , softer etc etc In the end the bike was quite good BUT no matter the setup that strange hardness was always there
Sure softer setting can ameliorate the issue a bit but its always there and as said I can feel it even ridding in pits.
The unfortunate thing about doing that much work is ya get good at feeling everything that you were kindof just ignoring or clueless about before
"The unfortunate thing about doing that much work is ya get good at feeling everything that you were kindof just ignoring or clueless about before."
There's something to be said for just riding and not being hyper-sensitive to the bike - I've got a buddy who, after he quit racing, rode an '81 or '82 XR500 for forever (and I swear he never did any maintenance to it since he didn't know which end of the wrench to hold) and there were few people who could hang with him. He could get on anything with 2 wheels and just fly.
Tested about every Honda since the 250R came out. what i have found is:
1st gen 250 2004-2009 Crf 250 Frame: flex is perfect for consumer not riding supercross.
2nd gen 450 2005-2008 Crf 450 Frame: flex is perfect for consumer not riding supercross
2nd gen 250 2010-2013 crf Crf250 Frame: flex is okay, frame is stiffer but can be cleaned up with linkage. Fork adjustment in clamps. clamps not needed just yet.
3rd gen 450 2009-2012 crf 450 frame: flex is not great. frame is stiffer but can be settled with Clamps, Linkage. Clamps needed.
3rd gen crf250 2014-2017 Frame: Stiff. not much flex. front end needs clamps, rear end needs linkage, suspension NEEDS work. Clutch was not durable at all. Bike gained weight, motor needs modded to push the weight around.
4th gen Crf450 2013-2016 Frame: flex was okay actually, needed linkage needed suspension work. but after was decent.
4th gen Crf250 2018-2021 frame: Unsure, Engine was a trash factory, looked like something out of their lawn mower department.
5th gen crf450 2017-2020 Frame: unsure personally, but a friend of mine Daniel baker #431 had one and complained about rear end a little. so im assuming linkage. i also think he had tried some x trigs on it. not sure which offset. he never complained frame was too stiff.
5th gen crf250 2022-2024/25 frame: unsure
6th gen Crf450 2021-2023/24/25
Instant Hate mail received on this frame from multiple testers. I personally havent rode one. but i saw 4 pretty quick guys in my area buy one and instantly sell and move to a different brand bike. multiple complaints about too stiff intial hits, palms hurting, "bike was stinkbugged" one guy said, another said "feels like the front end is a springboard and the rear just is there"
one would probably assume the newer the year, the stiffer the frame. The more spending/testing you will need to do to get it dialed, and within that phrase "dialed" would include Triple clamps, suspension, linkage, chain guide, slider, Bearing races is a possible. Without that probably kiss getting the stock bike to handle well goodbye. sorry for the long post.
That’s what all the initial YouTubers/ testers claimed as well lol.
I absolutely loved my 17 Honda. I bought it on runout, put the 18 engine hangers, 18 springs on it with spring perches and happily raced it stock for 12 months! I got it revalved at one stage by a company that actually raced Hondas and it was so terrible I told them to just put it back to stock. In hindsight a vortex ecu would have been the perfect add on as it just lacked a little in certain situations. 19-20 had a better motor and you could steer with the rear a little better but overall I felt it was a step backwards and I ended up changing a lot of parts to get them how I wanted. I’ve heard Brayton comment before his 18 Honda was his favourite bike too.
That seems common. The 2023 ktm 450 got dinged in reviews for harshness more than the 250. The bigger engine seems to always exacerbate whatever character or issues the bike has.
Dude my palms have never hurt before riding for hours. I put one hour on my 24 and couldn’t even hold on to the bars. I thought it was my spring rates but you aren’t giving me confidence here.
Ride the old 250R with 37mm carb…
That chassis is freaking Dialed!!!
Bikes looked harsh on the track tonight, Jett's front end was dancing off the tiny acceleration bumps and rear getting upset in the chop. Their last year bikes looked the best in these areas being able to have hold up while absorbing the chop and as of now this years model looked like the worse in this category. They have some work to do.
I was thinking the same thing. Looks like the OP here is a better test rider than the vast majority of the moto media who were ranting and raving about the handling of the new chassis.
Good to know it sucks , makes it that much easier to take there money in August. How bad is it in high speed entry into corners ? Because that’s where I,m wo in 4th![]()
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Pit Row
The OP isn't getting paid is the biggest difference.
I heard Seely ranting and raving on the Pulp show about it being the best handling bike he’s ever ridden. How much you figure he paid for his?
I actually agree with Seely. I love the way the new honda handles. BUT yes it is frustrating that sooo many have not come clean about the new hondas issues. Yes the suspension is too soft and the chassis has a harshness that Im not certain suspension changes can overcome BUT the bike is almost magic in the turns and has a fun and flickable attitude that feels light in motion.
Also the 2025crf is quite good at high speed turn entrance. The ugly head shake hasnt been eliminated but it sure has been reduced usefully.
I would simply sell this bike and keep the Yamaha BUT the red head just feels right and the yamaha dispite its much better suspension and plusher chassis action feel heavyer, less responsive to input, and only seems comfortable raling the outside
There only one thing that kills this and thats this strange harshness in the rear. Unfortunately fixing structural issue like this (assuming thats what it is), is a difficult to impossable task even for the big manufactures. The front is calm and the too soft suspension can be fixed.
BTW the 250 has a big advantage. It has much less torque AND it can run much softer settings both of wich will take some of the bite out of the chassis harshness but not eliminate it
I honestly have never thought about the difference in feel between going from one type of metal frame to another before.
Now that you mentioned it I thought my 08 YZ450F was good enough for me till I rode a new 2016 FC450 and in 3 minutes the handling sold me and had to go buy a KTM and I had never owned a KTM before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFyc12Hlw6c
I have some pretty serious questions about the authenticity of anyone who claims they can feel chassis harshness riding in flat ground, but that’s just me. If you say things with enough conviction you’ll always convince a certain number of people, that’s for sure.
The '06 thru '09 YZ4F's weren't the best turning bikes. I'd keep reducing the sag until the front got nervous and then back it off slightly, but even then it didn't have the best feeling/turning front end. It was noticeably lighter feeling (and had a lighter steering feel) than the '03 YZ4F it replaced, but it lost the planted front end feel. So, it wouldn't surprise me that a '16 SXF was better turning/handling - that wasn't a high bar to clear - and I hear a lot of people praise those bikes, so they sound like they were just good-handling in general (I haven't ridden that model so I can't comment).
And what you mentioned is exactly why MC flew the coop to Suzuki - Honda forcing him to ride the ulra-rigid tin can and drop his beloved '93 steel CR frame.
When Yamaha made the switch to aluminum on the YZ125 and 250 in 2005 they did exhaustive testing with the different frame components (some forged, some cast, different thicknesses and flex characteristics. etc.) in an effort to keep the feel of their steel frames (and people still want the steelies for offroad for their more resilient feel) because they didn't want to suffer the same fate as Honda's original AF CR250.
It's the same as aluminum versus steel bars - different material properties yield different performance and feel.
So the yam is not up to scratch, the ktm needed 20 revalves and still wasn't right, green was a no go straight off the bat....
And the Honda is too harsh?
Did I miss anything?
Are you an acoustician?
reasonable assumption....... until you actually ask a few questions
when I say "you can even feel this harshness just ridding in the pits" you apear to be making the assumption that the pits at my local tracks are perfetly flat and smooth groung. They are not. They certainly are not bombed out BUT they are often full of small (1-2 inch) edges and or littered with small rocks.
These smaller square edged bumps at slow speed when the suspension is not ridding deep in the stroke are excellent method to test this phenom as you are relaxed and not distracted like out on the track making it easy for the inexperienced to discern this issue.
I too rode for years just putting up with the beating not really know why some bikes feel soooo much better than others dispite similar needs of damp and coil to hold them up. Year of development work on vibrating structures and trying to control them was a wake up call
Heres a test that will make a believer out of even the most ham fisted. Ride the Honda most of the day. Around 1-2 pm in the afternoon when your feelin a bit beat up, jump on the yamaha or the Kawasaki. Often it takes a solid contrast like that to wake ya up to the reality BUT I warn you once ya know it you will have a very difficult time ignoring it from there on
No. I am a development engineer. Most of my work has been developing scientific equipment used in Synchrotron labs but also have a fair amount of work in loudspeaker development and hold a couple of patents on an aluminum ribbon style transducers . These are very fragile devices that if you do not control the unwanted wiggles well they self destruct. Much of my appreciation for how critical proper damping can be was forged here
Im not completely sure about the yamaha yet. This spring will continue set up changes to see but So far it has been as I say, a great work in the suspension and chassis comfort dept. And a great motor, BUT, for whatever reason it feels much less responsive to rider input than the honda and its just not the flickable fun bounce house style geometry that I personally seem to gel better with
The green bike vibed a lot but was similar to Yamaha in chassis comfort.The vibes were deal breaker for me
The ktm was a test bed for me.That season I had time to do about 2 revalves a week. I learned a lot about valving and chassis setup on that bike. This is a 2022sxf450.
The honda has a harshness in the rear, not the front. It seems so far to be mostly in the chassis, not the suspension. I do not want this to be so. I would absolutely love for someone to show this is wrong and heres the fix.
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