Something Has to Be Done Now Or The Sport is Finished

brocster
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Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
12/4/2024 7:31pm
soyMotero wrote:
Make safer tracks: Less jump/bigger jumps, focus on the technical aspect of dirt bike racing (ruts, bumps, turning...) speeds will be lower and therefore safer, less...

Make safer tracks: Less jump/bigger jumps, focus on the technical aspect of dirt bike racing (ruts, bumps, turning...) speeds will be lower and therefore safer, less accidents.

Also we have to reduce the sound of the bikes, in Europe this is the main cause of tracks closing down

crpilot wrote:
I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team...

I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team for much of the time.  Jumps are NOT the cause of most accidents.  Increases in crashes, and in particular, the bad ones, are directly related to poor grooming that results in deep, log ruts.  Fast guys love the ruts but most low to mid skill riders, not so much.  High speed cross ruts have proven over time to increase reportable crashes.

This is not an absolute, just the experience at out track.

This is why I can't understand why washougal suddenly the past few years. Has taken on this ripping it deep grooming tactic. It creates big deep...

This is why I can't understand why washougal suddenly the past few years. Has taken on this ripping it deep grooming tactic. It creates big deep long ruts. With all the bs they just went through. You would think that would be a priority to limit such conditions not encourage it. 

Newsflash. Hundreds of dirt bikes going over moist dirt will cause ruts, bumps, holes, kickers, etc etc. If theses things get  too dangerous everyone is in full control to end their recreation experience at that time. No one, I repeat, no one is holding a gun to your head, as Seth505 said, to continue for that plastic trophy or that 20th lap of practice. Be smart, be responsible and be accountable.  Mr Taylor failed to do all three as a participant as well as a parent but managed to throw that back on the LACR owner win his case.  Maybe someone should sue him for being an unfit parent for allowing his kid out on something that he reported as dangerous.  Would be no different than him knowing their was an issue with a piece of track that was suspect on the roller coaster at the local theme park but allowing his son to go for a ride anyways.  Have fun and be safe guys and gals, not sure how much longer we are going to get to enjoy this…

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Brad460
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Richfield, WI, USA
Fantasy
12/4/2024 7:31pm
Dave v3.0 wrote:
Anyone that thinks the U.S. Govt. is capable of running a universal healthcare operation has not been following how the VA treats our veterans and/or hasn't...

Anyone that thinks the U.S. Govt. is capable of running a universal healthcare operation has not been following how the VA treats our veterans and/or hasn't tried to navigate the Medicare/Medicaid world.  It is exactly the kind of shit show you would expect from Washington.

Or haven’t lived in a country with universal healthcare.

I’ll take my company sponsored healthcare in the USA over anything …

 

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2
12/4/2024 7:50pm
crt32 wrote:
Rumors are another lawsuit might be closing down (hopefully a short term pause vs closing) a historic Texas track. Apparently the accident happened in some trails...

Rumors are another lawsuit might be closing down (hopefully a short term pause vs closing) a historic Texas track. Apparently the accident happened in some trails around the track, kid hit a ditch and broke both femurs. He wasn't even supposed to be riding in that area. 

My kid is currently growing up on this track and made so many friends and memories. How can tracks survive if all it takes is for someone to break the rules, sue, win, and track has to close affecting all the families and riders. This keeps happening. 

ICE vs Electric doesn't matter, there is no saving tracks if personal responsibility does not come into play and tracks are protected. AMA HAS TO DO SOMETHING or WAIVERS HAVE TO MEAN SOMETHING or LAWS NEED TO BE ALTERED to protect tracks who open up to serve riders. 

The sport is in jeopardy—if tracks close, bike manufacturers lose sales, aftermarket companies can't sell parts, gear companies suffer, sponsors pull back from supercross, pros lose contracts, and the cycle continues.

What do we do? How do we solve this. I don't care about how comfy Deegan looks, how long the Stark battery last, or which helmet to buy, no offense to those who do. What I care about is having a sport for my kid to continue to enjoy, so how do we as consumers and an industry step up and get something done? 

I think tracks need to go to a membership format, something that eliminates the option to sue. Probationary membership for a year, volunteer hours recorded, etc. Track attendance will drop (thats fine with me) but the quys and gals there will be quality. If I have to pay $50 or $60 instead of $40 but everyone is a member, the tracks less busy, and it is guaranteed to be there in 10 years I'd be happy to do so. Let the dorks go out to the public spots/trails that never get sued as someone else mentioned. 

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AussieParaMX
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Location
Mount Waverley, VIC, AU
12/4/2024 8:59pm

Yeah tracks don’t ever close in Europe where they have healthcare 

Are you defending a system that leads to country being the only developed country in the world where medical bankruptcy is a thing… so people have...

Are you defending a system that leads to country being the only developed country in the world where medical bankruptcy is a thing… so people have to sue or go bankrupt… and then tracks close? Are you defending that or just wanna la la la with your eyes closed and remain as ignorant as possible? 


Tracks close everywhere for many different reasons. Mostly urban suburbs sprawl, which is a product of the determining that the free market should determine urban planning… rather than ahh, urban planners.  Just like Americas insurance companies deciding whether people get healthcare paid for or go bankrupt… rather than say ahhh medical professionals.  


It’s like taking your KX125 to Dave Prater to determine what needs to be done to make it faster instead of Mitch Payton. It’s dumb.  So fucking dumb.  And being actively ignorant to idiocy is the straightest road to idiocracy… 

I think you may be over estimating the competency of the American Govt…anything it touches turns to shit. I’d welcome any examples to the contrary, but I...

I think you may be over estimating the competency of the American Govt…anything it touches turns to shit. 

I’d welcome any examples to the contrary, but I can’t think of anything. 

Also, not sure if in your last example Mitch Payton is supposed to be the govt figure? If so that is ass backwards lol. But maybe I misunderstood your analogy 

Ahhh, Payton is the expert. How does that not compute. 

In this example prayer is the insurance company who have zero medical expertise deciding whether or not you even need an experts services — while directly profiting off ignoring with experts…  


That’s the system. That’s the system you are defending.

and your assertion that anything the gov touches turns to shit is ahh… just ignorant and dumb. Anything the government defunds turns to shit.  And when gov deregulates industries, they turn to shit.  

American was built on post WW2 government investment in infrastructure, education and manufacturing, the sciences, medicine etc etc etc… and since lobbyist have taken over government, America has fallen behind in every one of those industries… government isn’t the problem corporate, private industry, lobbyists are the problem. 

Again you can be ignorant and live in your little bubble of gov bad and insurance company deciding who gets healthcare is the ONLY possible way for America to function.  Or you can face reality… 

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The Shop

AussieParaMX
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Mount Waverley, VIC, AU
12/4/2024 9:04pm
crt32 wrote:
Rumors are another lawsuit might be closing down (hopefully a short term pause vs closing) a historic Texas track. Apparently the accident happened in some trails...

Rumors are another lawsuit might be closing down (hopefully a short term pause vs closing) a historic Texas track. Apparently the accident happened in some trails around the track, kid hit a ditch and broke both femurs. He wasn't even supposed to be riding in that area. 

My kid is currently growing up on this track and made so many friends and memories. How can tracks survive if all it takes is for someone to break the rules, sue, win, and track has to close affecting all the families and riders. This keeps happening. 

ICE vs Electric doesn't matter, there is no saving tracks if personal responsibility does not come into play and tracks are protected. AMA HAS TO DO SOMETHING or WAIVERS HAVE TO MEAN SOMETHING or LAWS NEED TO BE ALTERED to protect tracks who open up to serve riders. 

The sport is in jeopardy—if tracks close, bike manufacturers lose sales, aftermarket companies can't sell parts, gear companies suffer, sponsors pull back from supercross, pros lose contracts, and the cycle continues.

What do we do? How do we solve this. I don't care about how comfy Deegan looks, how long the Stark battery last, or which helmet to buy, no offense to those who do. What I care about is having a sport for my kid to continue to enjoy, so how do we as consumers and an industry step up and get something done? 

jmurphy243 wrote:
I think tracks need to go to a membership format, something that eliminates the option to sue. Probationary membership for a year, volunteer hours recorded, etc...

I think tracks need to go to a membership format, something that eliminates the option to sue. Probationary membership for a year, volunteer hours recorded, etc. Track attendance will drop (thats fine with me) but the quys and gals there will be quality. If I have to pay $50 or $60 instead of $40 but everyone is a member, the tracks less busy, and it is guaranteed to be there in 10 years I'd be happy to do so. Let the dorks go out to the public spots/trails that never get sued as someone else mentioned. 

But but but but…


So now motocross is less accessible because everyone is just accepting the status quo… we want to encourage more people to ride motocross not make the cost of entry even higher…


single payer Healthcare, 15 minute cities, reducing urban sprawl, increasing public transport to reduce ever expanding highways, and getting rid of lobbyists in government so the gov is free to do its job is the key to saving motocross… yes on the surface it seems insane. But that’s the reality — America and motocross is being destroyed by the malice of corporate lobbyists preventing expert from making the right decisions. It’s reality.   


Maybe we shouldn’t speak ill of the dead but… good riddance to that murderer who used AI to increase denials of care by 90%… AI deciding healthcare to maximize profits.  He got what he deserved.  

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Sandusky26
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3466
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Eastern, NC, USA
12/5/2024 2:28am Edited Date/Time 12/5/2024 2:29am

Since I jumped the border I haven't had to pay for any health care.

1
7
Johnny Ringo
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Tombstone, AZ, USA
12/5/2024 3:59am
crt32 wrote:
Rumors are another lawsuit might be closing down (hopefully a short term pause vs closing) a historic Texas track. Apparently the accident happened in some trails...

Rumors are another lawsuit might be closing down (hopefully a short term pause vs closing) a historic Texas track. Apparently the accident happened in some trails around the track, kid hit a ditch and broke both femurs. He wasn't even supposed to be riding in that area. 

My kid is currently growing up on this track and made so many friends and memories. How can tracks survive if all it takes is for someone to break the rules, sue, win, and track has to close affecting all the families and riders. This keeps happening. 

ICE vs Electric doesn't matter, there is no saving tracks if personal responsibility does not come into play and tracks are protected. AMA HAS TO DO SOMETHING or WAIVERS HAVE TO MEAN SOMETHING or LAWS NEED TO BE ALTERED to protect tracks who open up to serve riders. 

The sport is in jeopardy—if tracks close, bike manufacturers lose sales, aftermarket companies can't sell parts, gear companies suffer, sponsors pull back from supercross, pros lose contracts, and the cycle continues.

What do we do? How do we solve this. I don't care about how comfy Deegan looks, how long the Stark battery last, or which helmet to buy, no offense to those who do. What I care about is having a sport for my kid to continue to enjoy, so how do we as consumers and an industry step up and get something done? 

jmurphy243 wrote:
I think tracks need to go to a membership format, something that eliminates the option to sue. Probationary membership for a year, volunteer hours recorded, etc...

I think tracks need to go to a membership format, something that eliminates the option to sue. Probationary membership for a year, volunteer hours recorded, etc. Track attendance will drop (thats fine with me) but the quys and gals there will be quality. If I have to pay $50 or $60 instead of $40 but everyone is a member, the tracks less busy, and it is guaranteed to be there in 10 years I'd be happy to do so. Let the dorks go out to the public spots/trails that never get sued as someone else mentioned. 

But but but but…So now motocross is less accessible because everyone is just accepting the status quo… we want to encourage more people to ride motocross...

But but but but…


So now motocross is less accessible because everyone is just accepting the status quo… we want to encourage more people to ride motocross not make the cost of entry even higher…


single payer Healthcare, 15 minute cities, reducing urban sprawl, increasing public transport to reduce ever expanding highways, and getting rid of lobbyists in government so the gov is free to do its job is the key to saving motocross… yes on the surface it seems insane. But that’s the reality — America and motocross is being destroyed by the malice of corporate lobbyists preventing expert from making the right decisions. It’s reality.   


Maybe we shouldn’t speak ill of the dead but… good riddance to that murderer who used AI to increase denials of care by 90%… AI deciding healthcare to maximize profits.  He got what he deserved.  

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JustMX
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12/5/2024 5:09am
My daughter and wife ride English in the equine sports world. That sport has what is called the Equine Activity Liability Act, minus California and Maryland...

My daughter and wife ride English in the equine sports world. That sport has what is called the Equine Activity Liability Act, minus California and Maryland. You cannot sue the barn or hosting event if you are injured or killed. Each state has their own variations, but it saves their sport. Horse rider related injuries are pretty rough, like moto. Zero idea how this could be a thing in Moto or where to even begin, but this is an example that an inherently dangerous sport could have protection. 

EXAMPLE "As provided in §44-20-104, an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, or any other person, which shall include a corporation or partnership, shall not be liable for an injury to or the death of a participant resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities." 

familiar with that law.

it reads just about like the releases that every moto participant signs to ride.

It covers "inherent risks".

I would expect that a decent attorney would find a way around it if there was suspected negligence.

examples could be sharp objects a rider could fall on, or something that would be likely to cause a horse to get spooked like unsecured signage or banners.

I bet if there was a ground hog hole or some other hazard that you knew about and did not correct you could be on the hook for damages to horse and rider.

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1
Team403
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Lago Vista, TX, USA
12/5/2024 5:26am

Unfortunately I doubt there is a single track owner that wouldn’t sell to a developer for the right number.   The deck is stacked against them and the love of the game only goes so far.   When the sport blew up in the early 70s the world and esp SoCal for example was a much different place. Way more freedom - it was a perfect combo.   Now where you have available land you have no water to keep it up etc.. I really hate it for the sport but public tracks days are numbered… 

If you don’t think the ins co’s and land owners of leased track properties don’t see all the carnage posted on SM these days you are wrong.  

Our promoter pulls SM post that show potential ins red flags - standing too close to riders etc.. they claim that carriers review the SM accounts and probably do.  it’s real and the optics don’t look good to the outside. We need to enjoy what we have while we have it.  This goes for public off road lands as well.  One day we will not be allowed on them - SXSs are already fucking that up…

soggy
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USA
12/5/2024 7:28am
mxracer816 wrote:
Those advocating for a "universal healthcare system", do you guys honestly believe our government is capable of putting together a viable plan for this? Have y'all...

Those advocating for a "universal healthcare system", do you guys honestly believe our government is capable of putting together a viable plan for this? Have y'all seen the national debt total lately? Where does the money for this "plan" come from? Do you think doctors will agree to take a pay cut to make this plan viable? Do you think that the education system is also just as fucked and also partially responsible for the total clusterfuck we call our healthcare system? Have you guys priced a top level college education for a neurosurgeon? I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking to improve this shit show, but unfortunately the genie is long out of the bottle and I honestly don't think there's an effective way to put it back in. The main reason we're in the situation we are in is society in today's world has no personal responsibility and they've been told thousands of times by these unscrupulous ambulance chasers that someone else is at fault and they can get rich quick with zero effort. 

early wrote:

Why should we have universal health care for the oldest and sickest and not the healthiest, most productive, and future of our country?

mxracer816 wrote:
I guess I don't understand your question....I'm not for or against any ideas. I just think universal healthcare is a good hearted thought, but making it...

I guess I don't understand your question....I'm not for or against any ideas. I just think universal healthcare is a good hearted thought, but making it a viable system that works for all citizens is far fetched.

Not in most of the developed world. 

cheesehead420
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Manchester, CT, USA
12/5/2024 7:34am
crpilot wrote:
I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team...

I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team for much of the time.  Jumps are NOT the cause of most accidents.  Increases in crashes, and in particular, the bad ones, are directly related to poor grooming that results in deep, log ruts.  Fast guys love the ruts but most low to mid skill riders, not so much.  High speed cross ruts have proven over time to increase reportable crashes.

This is not an absolute, just the experience at out track.

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. 

Get a street bike and go to the track there if you don’t want bumps and ruts lol. Smooth tracks suck. 
 We grew up riding in sand pits and on vacant land. No dozers to groom the tracks ever and no jumps either. nothing but braking bumps, whoops and ruts. My brother, myself and a handful of friends we grew up riding with all became points scoring and national number holding riders in the 2000’s. 

I don’t mean to attack you personally, but I just can’t stand these smooth track “why isn’t the track prepped everyday” wimps that have ruined motocross. 

If your crashing in ruts, guess what slow down and learn some technique. Either way the crash probably won’t be too bad in ruts. It’s supercross type obstacles, smooth tracks (higher speeds) and stupidity which are the cause imo. 

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ns503
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NS Toolies, CA
12/5/2024 7:40am Edited Date/Time 12/5/2024 7:41am

IMO the most rigged game in the world is the insurance industry. And it gets compounded in everything else that deals with insurance. Ever go for a body repair estimate? First thing they ask is if you have insurance. Hmm, wouldn't be that the price goes up if insurance is paying would it?

Having that layer of bullshit right in the middle of a health care system has never made sense to me. Everything gets inflated, profits get prioritized, lawsuits in every direction become common practice, yadda yadda. I don't see anything fixing the huge problem this thread is about, with that being a major part of the system.

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crpilot
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Nashotah, WI, USA
12/5/2024 7:54am Edited Date/Time 12/5/2024 8:02am
crpilot wrote:
I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team...

I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team for much of the time.  Jumps are NOT the cause of most accidents.  Increases in crashes, and in particular, the bad ones, are directly related to poor grooming that results in deep, log ruts.  Fast guys love the ruts but most low to mid skill riders, not so much.  High speed cross ruts have proven over time to increase reportable crashes.

This is not an absolute, just the experience at out track.

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. Get a street bike and...

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. 

Get a street bike and go to the track there if you don’t want bumps and ruts lol. Smooth tracks suck. 
 We grew up riding in sand pits and on vacant land. No dozers to groom the tracks ever and no jumps either. nothing but braking bumps, whoops and ruts. My brother, myself and a handful of friends we grew up riding with all became points scoring and national number holding riders in the 2000’s. 

I don’t mean to attack you personally, but I just can’t stand these smooth track “why isn’t the track prepped everyday” wimps that have ruined motocross. 

If your crashing in ruts, guess what slow down and learn some technique. Either way the crash probably won’t be too bad in ruts. It’s supercross type obstacles, smooth tracks (higher speeds) and stupidity which are the cause imo. 

My statement is based on conversation with our moto medic that has serviced our races for over 25 years and my statement stands.  Yes, people crash and get injured on jumps but MOST serious injuries at our track are not from jumps.  Your track may produce different results.

I'm not advocating for smooth tracks at all, just responding to the original statement that "removing jumps" will fix/lower the risk.  Simply not true.

And, as stated in other posts, the real reason people crash is riding above there skill level.  That's why people crash way more in a race setting than practice.  Competitiveness and the adrenaline rush of racing drives people to ride beyond there skills independent of track conditions.

 

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MPJC
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12/5/2024 8:39am

Our health care system in Canada isn't perfect, but I'll take it over the American system any time. In the last (just over a) year, during my journey to and through a Parkinson's diagnosis, I have seen 3 neurologists and had 2 MRIs. Cost to me: zero. I am now waiting for a follow up appointment for longer than I'd like, but that's because the neurologist I see had a 3 month research leave so his appointments are all pushed back.

For a lot of procedures here, wait times are excessive. But everyone is part of the queue - except for the very rich who can go elsewhere and pay for a procedure. American wait times are shorter, but put everyone - every single person, without exception - into the system and see what happens to your wait times. 

Every other country in the civilized world has some form of universal health care (many much better than what we have in Canada - some form of public/private hybrid system like many in Europe is probably the best). The problem with the American system strikes me as less private vs public and more a matter of how the whole thing is set up. I've had people much more knowledgeable than I am on the topic explain it to me, and that taught me that I don't have a great handle on how it works, but I had a lot of "holy shit, how do they get away with that" moments. It sounds to me like you all are getting hosed, and I have no idea what the solution is but someone must. I can't help but think that some really rich assholes are profiting from misery and bamboozling the people to subvert the political will to do anything about it. 

I'm pretty sure that if I was an American, I wouldn't be riding at all. I don't think that I could afford the risk. I, like many people around the world, look at the U.S.A. with amazement - that medical bankruptcies can be a thing in a country with so much. We have our own problems, so please don't take this as coming from someone who claims any sort of position of moral superiority - or that I claim to know all that much. I just hope you sort your shit out as well as is possible and that people in your country can still have places to ride and the medical coverage to allow riding to not be an insane risk. 

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1
Question
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FR
12/5/2024 8:59am Edited Date/Time 12/5/2024 9:02am

Doesn’t help when you got matthess telling everyone it’s okay to sue a track and to have some compassion…

Timo wrote:
He said he wouldn't judge people if they did. Everyone on here can talk big about not sueing a track, but when the medical bills start...

He said he wouldn't judge people if they did. Everyone on here can talk big about not sueing a track, but when the medical bills start piling up it's hard to follow up on it. My kid broke his arm at a private zoo this summer on a fun but sketchy 3 story tall slide. I'm lucky enough to have good insurance and the zoo was never notified that it happened. I would like to think I'd never be one to sue, but I've also never had several hundred thousand dollars in medical bills piling up. 

Outrageous medical bills is also a problem to solve and that can't be solved without a huge government determination. 

Same thing for insurances, there is always a cap and exclusionary clauses that are abusive.

whyZ
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1158
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4/15/2009
Location
Phoenix, AZ, USA
12/5/2024 9:49am

Single track owners battling national insurance companies, that's the issue.  No leadership, no uniformity, no concord for correction.  The principles of this sport, the ones that have the ability to initiate and/or organize, just plain don't.  It's the same theory used in organized crime.  Why rob a bank when you can own one.  What would the logistics be to create an insurance company that services just the moto industry, track owners specifically.  Power in numbers, owners paying their premiums to an insurance company that specializes in litigating these types of injuries.  I know it's probably a pipe dream, but eventually that's what riding on a track will be, a dream.                

mx317
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USA
12/5/2024 9:58am
crpilot wrote:
I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team...

I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team for much of the time.  Jumps are NOT the cause of most accidents.  Increases in crashes, and in particular, the bad ones, are directly related to poor grooming that results in deep, log ruts.  Fast guys love the ruts but most low to mid skill riders, not so much.  High speed cross ruts have proven over time to increase reportable crashes.

This is not an absolute, just the experience at out track.

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. Get a street bike and...

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. 

Get a street bike and go to the track there if you don’t want bumps and ruts lol. Smooth tracks suck. 
 We grew up riding in sand pits and on vacant land. No dozers to groom the tracks ever and no jumps either. nothing but braking bumps, whoops and ruts. My brother, myself and a handful of friends we grew up riding with all became points scoring and national number holding riders in the 2000’s. 

I don’t mean to attack you personally, but I just can’t stand these smooth track “why isn’t the track prepped everyday” wimps that have ruined motocross. 

If your crashing in ruts, guess what slow down and learn some technique. Either way the crash probably won’t be too bad in ruts. It’s supercross type obstacles, smooth tracks (higher speeds) and stupidity which are the cause imo. 

I don't think he was meaning to make the tracks smooth, but make less of the "man made" style of ruts caused by overwatering and ripping it 2 foot deep. Ruts are fun until they are stupid deep because of the wrong prep. 

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1
fins227
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1099
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Chillicothe, OH, USA
12/5/2024 10:14am

No worries! Just contact the AMA, thats what they’re there for right? I’m sure it’s not just a scam. 

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dkurtd
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USA
12/5/2024 10:24am
crpilot wrote:
I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team...

I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team for much of the time.  Jumps are NOT the cause of most accidents.  Increases in crashes, and in particular, the bad ones, are directly related to poor grooming that results in deep, log ruts.  Fast guys love the ruts but most low to mid skill riders, not so much.  High speed cross ruts have proven over time to increase reportable crashes.

This is not an absolute, just the experience at out track.

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. Get a street bike and...

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. 

Get a street bike and go to the track there if you don’t want bumps and ruts lol. Smooth tracks suck. 
 We grew up riding in sand pits and on vacant land. No dozers to groom the tracks ever and no jumps either. nothing but braking bumps, whoops and ruts. My brother, myself and a handful of friends we grew up riding with all became points scoring and national number holding riders in the 2000’s. 

I don’t mean to attack you personally, but I just can’t stand these smooth track “why isn’t the track prepped everyday” wimps that have ruined motocross. 

If your crashing in ruts, guess what slow down and learn some technique. Either way the crash probably won’t be too bad in ruts. It’s supercross type obstacles, smooth tracks (higher speeds) and stupidity which are the cause imo. 

"wimps that have ruined motocross."

I guess you never watched a race at Carlsbad or Saddleback, the greats that raced there were no wimps.  Traditionally motocross didn't have deep ruts unless it was a mudfest from rain.   

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12/5/2024 10:51am
GBS wrote:
The problem is, it has been determined that a parent can not sign the rights of a minor away and a minor can not sign it's...

The problem is, it has been determined that a parent can not sign the rights of a minor away and a minor can not sign it's rights away, so you can have them sign anything you want, but it means nothing. That went to court a few years ago and been determined and that's why insurance companies are ending up paying. That is also why all tracks are stopping pit riding.

If that were true that how would kids be able to play sports?  The parent has to have the legal liability to sign for the kid.  

I grew up playing hockey, still play beer league hockey, injuries happen all the time, but people are not suing the rinks left and right.  how is motocross any different?

2
cheesehead420
Posts
662
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Location
Manchester, CT, USA
12/5/2024 11:15am
crpilot wrote:
I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team...

I'll add another perspective (not to disagree):  I've been involved in my local MX club for 25+years and have worked with the on site medical team for much of the time.  Jumps are NOT the cause of most accidents.  Increases in crashes, and in particular, the bad ones, are directly related to poor grooming that results in deep, log ruts.  Fast guys love the ruts but most low to mid skill riders, not so much.  High speed cross ruts have proven over time to increase reportable crashes.

This is not an absolute, just the experience at out track.

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. Get a street bike and...

 Jumps may not be the cause of MOST crashes but they are definitely the cause for MOST crashes ending in serious injuries. 

Get a street bike and go to the track there if you don’t want bumps and ruts lol. Smooth tracks suck. 
 We grew up riding in sand pits and on vacant land. No dozers to groom the tracks ever and no jumps either. nothing but braking bumps, whoops and ruts. My brother, myself and a handful of friends we grew up riding with all became points scoring and national number holding riders in the 2000’s. 

I don’t mean to attack you personally, but I just can’t stand these smooth track “why isn’t the track prepped everyday” wimps that have ruined motocross. 

If your crashing in ruts, guess what slow down and learn some technique. Either way the crash probably won’t be too bad in ruts. It’s supercross type obstacles, smooth tracks (higher speeds) and stupidity which are the cause imo. 

mx317 wrote:
I don't think he was meaning to make the tracks smooth, but make less of the "man made" style of ruts caused by overwatering and ripping...

I don't think he was meaning to make the tracks smooth, but make less of the "man made" style of ruts caused by overwatering and ripping it 2 foot deep. Ruts are fun until they are stupid deep because of the wrong prep. 

I agree that is probably what he meant. And I agree it’s a problem which is why I was bashing track prep. The modern idea of track prep sucks. 

I much prefer riding in pits that have never seen a piece of equipment or on private tracks that don’t get groomed, and if they do it’s maybe once a year. 

2
soggy
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8828
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12/5/2024 11:18am
I agree that is probably what he meant. And I agree it’s a problem which is why I was bashing track prep. The modern idea of...

I agree that is probably what he meant. And I agree it’s a problem which is why I was bashing track prep. The modern idea of track prep sucks. 

I much prefer riding in pits that have never seen a piece of equipment or on private tracks that don’t get groomed, and if they do it’s maybe once a year. 

I think it’s different out west. If we don’t rip and groom regularly most our tracks might as well be pavement. 

Definitely different compared to when I lived in the east and there was more moisture in the dirt and more periods of rain.  

cheesehead420
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12/5/2024 11:34am
dkurtd wrote:
"wimps that have ruined motocross."I guess you never watched a race at Carlsbad or Saddleback, the greats that raced there were no wimps.  Traditionally motocross didn't...

"wimps that have ruined motocross."

I guess you never watched a race at Carlsbad or Saddleback, the greats that raced there were no wimps.  Traditionally motocross didn't have deep ruts unless it was a mudfest from rain.   

You clearly misunderstood me. I was bashing modern track prep which is what creates these slot car tracks that are all rutted but not a single bump out there. Add in a bunch of jumps and F that. I’m just not interested. 

I was too young to have raced them but I have watched the old races of saddleback and Carlsbad and I stand by my statement that cry babies that whine about the track not being prepped have ruined the sport. Those tracks never even got groomed, never mind being “prepped”. I’d give my left nut to race either of those tracks. 

Watching the video of Marty Moates win in 1980 is one of the greatest races ever. That track was so rough and beat it was sick and he was literally floating around it. The skill it took for him to do that, his balance and line selection was out of this world that day. That’s motocross and I stand by my statement that “wimps have ruined it”

5
Moto Nomad
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Grass Valley, CA, USA
12/5/2024 11:52am

The generally accepted practices in this industry have been Wild West and it's catching up. No flaggers on practice days, having pro riders run with kids on 60s, etc. I'm not defending the lawsuits but most sports and activities have much more professional approaches than motocross does, although every track is different.

3
1
LungButter
Posts
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Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
12/5/2024 11:56am
But but but but…So now motocross is less accessible because everyone is just accepting the status quo… we want to encourage more people to ride motocross...

But but but but…


So now motocross is less accessible because everyone is just accepting the status quo… we want to encourage more people to ride motocross not make the cost of entry even higher…


single payer Healthcare, 15 minute cities, reducing urban sprawl, increasing public transport to reduce ever expanding highways, and getting rid of lobbyists in government so the gov is free to do its job is the key to saving motocross… yes on the surface it seems insane. But that’s the reality — America and motocross is being destroyed by the malice of corporate lobbyists preventing expert from making the right decisions. It’s reality.   


Maybe we shouldn’t speak ill of the dead but… good riddance to that murderer who used AI to increase denials of care by 90%… AI deciding healthcare to maximize profits.  He got what he deserved.  

"single payer Healthcare, 15 minute cities, reducing urban sprawl, increasing public transport to reduce ever expanding highways, and getting rid of lobbyists in government so the gov is free to do its job is the key to saving motocross…"

Wow....

Please enlighten me, how are 15 minute cities going to save motocross?

I live about as far from a city as you can get and I ride my dirt bike from my driveway.  Living in some shit hole city with a couple other million folks sure doesn't seem like I'd be able to ride my dirt bike more.

2
1
AussieParaMX
Posts
1693
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Location
Mount Waverley, VIC, AU
12/5/2024 12:52pm
But but but but…So now motocross is less accessible because everyone is just accepting the status quo… we want to encourage more people to ride motocross...

But but but but…


So now motocross is less accessible because everyone is just accepting the status quo… we want to encourage more people to ride motocross not make the cost of entry even higher…


single payer Healthcare, 15 minute cities, reducing urban sprawl, increasing public transport to reduce ever expanding highways, and getting rid of lobbyists in government so the gov is free to do its job is the key to saving motocross… yes on the surface it seems insane. But that’s the reality — America and motocross is being destroyed by the malice of corporate lobbyists preventing expert from making the right decisions. It’s reality.   


Maybe we shouldn’t speak ill of the dead but… good riddance to that murderer who used AI to increase denials of care by 90%… AI deciding healthcare to maximize profits.  He got what he deserved.  

LungButter wrote:
"single payer Healthcare, 15 minute cities, reducing urban sprawl, increasing public transport to reduce ever expanding highways, and getting rid of lobbyists in government so the...

"single payer Healthcare, 15 minute cities, reducing urban sprawl, increasing public transport to reduce ever expanding highways, and getting rid of lobbyists in government so the gov is free to do its job is the key to saving motocross…"

Wow....

Please enlighten me, how are 15 minute cities going to save motocross?

I live about as far from a city as you can get and I ride my dirt bike from my driveway.  Living in some shit hole city with a couple other million folks sure doesn't seem like I'd be able to ride my dirt bike more.

A 15 minutes city does not mean everyone has to live there. It simply reduces urban sprawl and the endless expansion of highways to handle to more and more traffic from further and further distances. Dense walkable cities means those like access to amenities, culture, public transport and green space aren’t forced to live in ever expanding culdesac developments. Well designed cities are designed around people — the more country and motocross people encourage 15 minutes city does cities the less people encroach on motocross tracks… supporting the people that don’t like motocross to stay as far away from tracks, by presenting a viable option is a huge key to saving tracks.  

Support 15 minute dense walkable cities even if you wouldn’t choose to live there. 

1
4
LungButter
Posts
8684
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Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
12/5/2024 1:06pm
A 15 minutes city does not mean everyone has to live there. It simply reduces urban sprawl and the endless expansion of highways to handle to...

A 15 minutes city does not mean everyone has to live there. It simply reduces urban sprawl and the endless expansion of highways to handle to more and more traffic from further and further distances. Dense walkable cities means those like access to amenities, culture, public transport and green space aren’t forced to live in ever expanding culdesac developments. Well designed cities are designed around people — the more country and motocross people encourage 15 minutes city does cities the less people encroach on motocross tracks… supporting the people that don’t like motocross to stay as far away from tracks, by presenting a viable option is a huge key to saving tracks.  

Support 15 minute dense walkable cities even if you wouldn’t choose to live there. 

Fair enough.

1
1
3strokemx
Posts
2810
Joined
9/2/2010
Location
USA
12/5/2024 1:07pm
A 15 minutes city does not mean everyone has to live there. It simply reduces urban sprawl and the endless expansion of highways to handle to...

A 15 minutes city does not mean everyone has to live there. It simply reduces urban sprawl and the endless expansion of highways to handle to more and more traffic from further and further distances. Dense walkable cities means those like access to amenities, culture, public transport and green space aren’t forced to live in ever expanding culdesac developments. Well designed cities are designed around people — the more country and motocross people encourage 15 minutes city does cities the less people encroach on motocross tracks… supporting the people that don’t like motocross to stay as far away from tracks, by presenting a viable option is a huge key to saving tracks.  

Support 15 minute dense walkable cities even if you wouldn’t choose to live there. 

Is that why we're seeing such a huge motocross explosion in China?

1
1
brocster
Posts
4583
Joined
6/9/2009
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
12/5/2024 1:07pm
MPJC wrote:
Our health care system in Canada isn't perfect, but I'll take it over the American system any time. In the last (just over a) year, during...

Our health care system in Canada isn't perfect, but I'll take it over the American system any time. In the last (just over a) year, during my journey to and through a Parkinson's diagnosis, I have seen 3 neurologists and had 2 MRIs. Cost to me: zero. I am now waiting for a follow up appointment for longer than I'd like, but that's because the neurologist I see had a 3 month research leave so his appointments are all pushed back.

For a lot of procedures here, wait times are excessive. But everyone is part of the queue - except for the very rich who can go elsewhere and pay for a procedure. American wait times are shorter, but put everyone - every single person, without exception - into the system and see what happens to your wait times. 

Every other country in the civilized world has some form of universal health care (many much better than what we have in Canada - some form of public/private hybrid system like many in Europe is probably the best). The problem with the American system strikes me as less private vs public and more a matter of how the whole thing is set up. I've had people much more knowledgeable than I am on the topic explain it to me, and that taught me that I don't have a great handle on how it works, but I had a lot of "holy shit, how do they get away with that" moments. It sounds to me like you all are getting hosed, and I have no idea what the solution is but someone must. I can't help but think that some really rich assholes are profiting from misery and bamboozling the people to subvert the political will to do anything about it. 

I'm pretty sure that if I was an American, I wouldn't be riding at all. I don't think that I could afford the risk. I, like many people around the world, look at the U.S.A. with amazement - that medical bankruptcies can be a thing in a country with so much. We have our own problems, so please don't take this as coming from someone who claims any sort of position of moral superiority - or that I claim to know all that much. I just hope you sort your shit out as well as is possible and that people in your country can still have places to ride and the medical coverage to allow riding to not be an insane risk. 

Stopped reading after your second paragraph.  Our ins is a scam but I rather get my ACL repaired within a few days to a couple of weeks rather than being on crutches and out of work waiting in the extensive lines of free healthcare services.  I’ll take in and out of surgery straight into rehab and back walking in a month or so rather than delaying out months to years rebuilding a leg that has atrophied sitting around waiting for months. Pick your poison, me, I’ll take US system all day every day with the hopes of things turning around within it in the next few years. 

2
2
Trickamoto
Posts
664
Joined
2/6/2018
Location
Beverly Hills, CA, USA
12/5/2024 1:08pm

imagine if this thing took on a life of it's own and rich taylor is the guy we can thank for it? unreal.

5
1

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