Is Red Bull KTM in big trouble?

RACERX69
Posts
1160
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
San Antonio, TX US
11/30/2024 6:18am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I still would love to see just how much in bonuses Pierer and the other major executives have paid themselves in bonuses over the last 18-24...

I still would love to see just how much in bonuses Pierer and the other major executives have paid themselves in bonuses over the last 18-24 months. Something tells me that at least a portion of the higher debt load could be because of something along those lines…….

Pierer can’t be a stupid guy. He had to know as well as anyone that the Covid ‘boom’ of sales was not going to last long term, but that he could leverage that increase to borrow more than he normally could. Then pay out the ‘extra’ cash in executive compensation so that when reality returns and insolvency occurs, there are some nice 10+ digit golden parachutes awaiting for a lucky few….!

Sounds eerily similar to Enron!

3
APLMAN99
Posts
12206
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Tualatin, OR US
Fantasy
11/30/2024 7:24am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I still would love to see just how much in bonuses Pierer and the other major executives have paid themselves in bonuses over the last 18-24...

I still would love to see just how much in bonuses Pierer and the other major executives have paid themselves in bonuses over the last 18-24 months. Something tells me that at least a portion of the higher debt load could be because of something along those lines…….

Pierer can’t be a stupid guy. He had to know as well as anyone that the Covid ‘boom’ of sales was not going to last long term, but that he could leverage that increase to borrow more than he normally could. Then pay out the ‘extra’ cash in executive compensation so that when reality returns and insolvency occurs, there are some nice 10+ digit golden parachutes awaiting for a lucky few….!

RACERX69 wrote:

Sounds eerily similar to Enron!

And it’s just a suspicion, nothing verifiable so I don’t want to infer that that is what DID happen. Just interesting how much debt was taken on in such a short time without having a decent cash reserve left. 

2
JWACK
Posts
2561
Joined
8/7/2009
Location
NM US
11/30/2024 7:34am

Time for the bailout! 

Call KYB!   


 

3
yak651
Posts
8572
Joined
8/26/2006
Location
Appleton, WI US
Fantasy
11/30/2024 7:42am

How about we start a go fund me for them??

1

The Shop

hartebreak
Posts
2637
Joined
9/16/2009
Location
Portland, OR US
11/30/2024 8:27am

I would guess that an overwhelming majority of the debt tied up in inventory in warehouses and on dealer floors. Having tens if not hundreds of thousands of bikes sitting around waiting to be sold costs something. Pair that with the ridiculous interest rates and its not hard to get to a couple billion $ worth of cash and or debt tied up in flooring costs. That's why their strategy of stopping production makes sense. Why keep building more bikes, when there is already a glut on the market?

I think this is more of a time problem than a money problem. The PMG needs time, time to get the inventory sold and get the cashflow back into the black. In this case, time requires money. Every bike that's sitting in a warehouse or a dealer floor has already cost them the $$$ to build, and then they are paying $$$ by way of interest every second of every day waiting for the bike to sell. They aren't broke, they just have converted all of their cash into motorcycles, now they just need to convert it back.

 

3
6
cwel11
Posts
2580
Joined
12/4/2019
Location
Orangeville, PA US
11/30/2024 10:08am
hartebreak wrote:
I would guess that an overwhelming majority of the debt tied up in inventory in warehouses and on dealer floors. Having tens if not hundreds of...

I would guess that an overwhelming majority of the debt tied up in inventory in warehouses and on dealer floors. Having tens if not hundreds of thousands of bikes sitting around waiting to be sold costs something. Pair that with the ridiculous interest rates and its not hard to get to a couple billion $ worth of cash and or debt tied up in flooring costs. That's why their strategy of stopping production makes sense. Why keep building more bikes, when there is already a glut on the market?

I think this is more of a time problem than a money problem. The PMG needs time, time to get the inventory sold and get the cashflow back into the black. In this case, time requires money. Every bike that's sitting in a warehouse or a dealer floor has already cost them the $$$ to build, and then they are paying $$$ by way of interest every second of every day waiting for the bike to sell. They aren't broke, they just have converted all of their cash into motorcycles, now they just need to convert it back.

 

This is almost exactly what they told the dealer I just bought my bike off of. The whole time he’s telling me this and I’m nodding uh huh, and was thinking do you really think they’d tell you the truth regardless?  I’m really curious and quite frankly pretty pessimistic we’ll even see contingency this season (or ever again) which frankly helped offset our costs to go do this. If by some chance they pull through this I’d think their reputation will be tarnished for quite some time. 

Tiki
Posts
10579
Joined
8/1/2006
Location
Corona, CA US
Fantasy
11/30/2024 10:41am

From an industry Site: https://motorcyclesports.net/terrifying-ktm-ag-and-subsidiaries-face-e2…

It’s a depressing situation but a stark reality for one of the biggest motorcycle manufacturers in the world. KTM, one of motocross’ biggest industry supporters has filed documents on Friday to begin insolvency proceedings in an Austrian court with debts amounting to 2.9 billion Euros.

This is according to motorcyclesports.net. “The insolvency involves KTM AG and its two subsidiaries – KTM Components GmbH and KTM Forschungs und Entwicklungs GmbH. While KTMAG’s filings report €1.8 billion in liabilities, the Alpine Creditors Association (AKV) estimates the combined debt of the three entities at €2.9 billion.

“There are approximately 2,500 creditors. Of this debt, KTM AG owes around €1.3 billion to banks, €365 million to suppliers, and €40 million in employee salaries.”

1
11/30/2024 10:43am

The only way to move inventory is with huge rebates. They can't do that without the funds. It's going to take a year or more for the market to pick up as well. Dumping cheap new bikes is good but it will destroy the used bike prices. The dealers are in a bad spot as it is. this is a real killer for them.

cwel11
Posts
2580
Joined
12/4/2019
Location
Orangeville, PA US
11/30/2024 10:53am
The only way to move inventory is with huge rebates. They can't do that without the funds. It's going to take a year or more for...

The only way to move inventory is with huge rebates. They can't do that without the funds. It's going to take a year or more for the market to pick up as well. Dumping cheap new bikes is good but it will destroy the used bike prices. The dealers are in a bad spot as it is. this is a real killer for them.

Adding to the problem who wants to  buy a bike that you may not be able to get oem parts for in the future? Any consumers with the means to buy a bike would have to think long and hard on this now.  We’ve bought 10 new ktm group bikes in the last 10 years or so and at this point it’d have to be one heck of a deal to buy another. It’s crazy to see how quickly a reputation and a customer’s trust can be lost. 

3
Larry450
Posts
185
Joined
12/29/2016
Location
ZW
11/30/2024 11:17am

130 000 units unsold. When does ktm's black friday deals kick in?

5
MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
NY US
11/30/2024 11:22am
Larry450 wrote:

130 000 units unsold. When does ktm's black friday deals kick in?

In 90 days.

2
zehn
Posts
7859
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
11/30/2024 11:24am

$40 MILLION in unpaid salaries?? The fuck? Wonder how much of that is mid to upper management and C suite

4
tek14
Posts
4898
Joined
1/26/2014
Location
Vantaa FI
11/30/2024 11:38am
Larry450 wrote:

130 000 units unsold. When does ktm's black friday deals kick in?

Got call from dealer that will pass KTM factory discount to my offer. It just didnt make sense to take it now as with discount price did just match Japan bikes but unsecurity about parts support and things like that. Parts stock been really low on dealers and everything comes from Austria but now they will lay off staff. 

3
Lightning78
Posts
6353
Joined
12/12/2007
Location
Huntington Beach, CA US
11/30/2024 11:43am

There's a much bigger story here...gotta see the big picture. I don't mean ktm either....things are falling off a cliff globally and nobody seems to notice were heading for a massive crash

19
3
MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
NY US
11/30/2024 11:51am
tek14 wrote:
Got call from dealer that will pass KTM factory discount to my offer. It just didnt make sense to take it now as with discount price...

Got call from dealer that will pass KTM factory discount to my offer. It just didnt make sense to take it now as with discount price did just match Japan bikes but unsecurity about parts support and things like that. Parts stock been really low on dealers and everything comes from Austria but now they will lay off staff. 

KTM is 70% market share in the EU. Around 20% here.

Chuck_Nice
Posts
76
Joined
1/31/2011
Location
Indianapolis, IN US
11/30/2024 12:04pm

In big trouble? Maybe, but probably not. They most likely have some hidden assets not being shown? General Motors file bankruptcy in 2009. Got government assistance to re-structure. Within several years they were back to spending millions on auto racing and paying the CEO 21.5 million dollar bonuses. Now 15 years later they are spending 450 million to go Formula 1 racing. KTM will be ok, just need the right lawyers and right judge in court!

3
1
OldTech
Posts
1214
Joined
1/13/2024
Location
Decatur , AL US
11/30/2024 12:19pm
Chuck_Nice wrote:
In big trouble? Maybe, but probably not. They most likely have some hidden assets not being shown? General Motors file bankruptcy in 2009. Got government assistance...

In big trouble? Maybe, but probably not. They most likely have some hidden assets not being shown? General Motors file bankruptcy in 2009. Got government assistance to re-structure. Within several years they were back to spending millions on auto racing and paying the CEO 21.5 million dollar bonuses. Now 15 years later they are spending 450 million to go Formula 1 racing. KTM will be ok, just need the right lawyers and right judge in court!

Ever heard of Ally Bank, that was a broke GMAC with billions of our money thrown at it.

2
MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
NY US
11/30/2024 12:25pm
OldTech wrote:

Ever heard of Ally Bank, that was a broke GMAC with billions of our money thrown at it.

Systemic risk...

JMX82
Posts
1574
Joined
5/9/2013
Location
Hyllykallio FI
11/30/2024 12:32pm
There's a much bigger story here...gotta see the big picture. I don't mean ktm either....things are falling off a cliff globally and nobody seems to notice...

There's a much bigger story here...gotta see the big picture. I don't mean ktm either....things are falling off a cliff globally and nobody seems to notice were heading for a massive crash

I agree! Suddenly a lot of big companies seems to be suddenly in financial trouble especially in vehicle related business.

I work for a company which is subcontractor for a tractor manufacturer I have never seen this big drop in sales. It wasn't this bad even in 2008 financial crisis. The stock market still seems to be doing alright which makes me wonder when the bubble will burst 

5
ohh_454
Posts
2779
Joined
6/24/2023
Location
Nuevo, CA US
Fantasy
11/30/2024 12:36pm

They let the wrong guy hold onto the credit card. 

Beagle
Posts
1762
Joined
8/3/2023
Location
Toulouse FR
11/30/2024 12:56pm

It's all fine to play armchair CEO although I'm disappointed some of you don't pay enough attention, among others there was nothing hidden about the debt.

Here's some publicly available data to help some improve their CEO game.

From PMG 2023 annual report: 

One year ago PMG were already at a record 0.8 billion in debt and negative cash flow. Still turned out record revenue (2.7 billion) with record sales (381 000 motorcycles) but worryingly profit (76 million) and margin were decreasing nonetheless. Financial liabilities ramped up in one year from 0.5 to 1 billion.

They have 3 billion in assets including 1 billion in intangible assets, property, plant and equipment, 0.7 billion in inventory.

289 million in selling and racing expenses, including 123 million in personnel expenses.

From PMG H1 2024 report

In barely 6 months, debt had doubled up to 1.5 billion while at the same time revenue and sales were decreasing, cash flow evaporated, production had already slowed down. It accelerated real fast.

Have fun!

3
Beagle
Posts
1762
Joined
8/3/2023
Location
Toulouse FR
11/30/2024 1:08pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2024 1:10pm
tek14 wrote:
Got call from dealer that will pass KTM factory discount to my offer. It just didnt make sense to take it now as with discount price...

Got call from dealer that will pass KTM factory discount to my offer. It just didnt make sense to take it now as with discount price did just match Japan bikes but unsecurity about parts support and things like that. Parts stock been really low on dealers and everything comes from Austria but now they will lay off staff. 

MxAddic wrote:

KTM is 70% market share in the EU. Around 20% here.

37% Europe, 26% North America

(then 17% India, 7% Latin America, 6% Rest of Asia, 5% Australia, 1% Africa)

3
MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
NY US
11/30/2024 1:32pm
Beagle wrote:
[img]https://media1.tenor.com/m/4nO578j2ikcAAAAC/nope.gif[/img]37% Europe, 26% North America(then 17% India, 7% Latin America, 6% Rest of Asia, 5% Australia, 1% Africa)

37% Europe, 26% North America

(then 17% India, 7% Latin America, 6% Rest of Asia, 5% Australia, 1% Africa)

lol.

"Off-road is KTMI’s legacy business and, in Europe, it holds a market share of ~70%"

https://www.pierermobility.com/api/assets?filename=KTMI-Initial-Coverag…

4
soggy
Posts
8480
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
UT US
11/30/2024 1:41pm
tek14 wrote:
Got call from dealer that will pass KTM factory discount to my offer. It just didnt make sense to take it now as with discount price...

Got call from dealer that will pass KTM factory discount to my offer. It just didnt make sense to take it now as with discount price did just match Japan bikes but unsecurity about parts support and things like that. Parts stock been really low on dealers and everything comes from Austria but now they will lay off staff. 

MxAddic wrote:

KTM is 70% market share in the EU. Around 20% here.

Beagle wrote:
[img]https://media1.tenor.com/m/4nO578j2ikcAAAAC/nope.gif[/img]37% Europe, 26% North America(then 17% India, 7% Latin America, 6% Rest of Asia, 5% Australia, 1% Africa)

37% Europe, 26% North America

(then 17% India, 7% Latin America, 6% Rest of Asia, 5% Australia, 1% Africa)

Looks like your figured is % of where the sell there bikes not market share. 

3
BobPA
Posts
8323
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
11/30/2024 1:48pm

I'd give em $100k for the new headquarters building.

1
2
Spoonguy
Posts
3386
Joined
2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA US
11/30/2024 1:53pm
hartebreak wrote:
I would guess that an overwhelming majority of the debt tied up in inventory in warehouses and on dealer floors. Having tens if not hundreds of...

I would guess that an overwhelming majority of the debt tied up in inventory in warehouses and on dealer floors. Having tens if not hundreds of thousands of bikes sitting around waiting to be sold costs something. Pair that with the ridiculous interest rates and its not hard to get to a couple billion $ worth of cash and or debt tied up in flooring costs. That's why their strategy of stopping production makes sense. Why keep building more bikes, when there is already a glut on the market?

I think this is more of a time problem than a money problem. The PMG needs time, time to get the inventory sold and get the cashflow back into the black. In this case, time requires money. Every bike that's sitting in a warehouse or a dealer floor has already cost them the $$$ to build, and then they are paying $$$ by way of interest every second of every day waiting for the bike to sell. They aren't broke, they just have converted all of their cash into motorcycles, now they just need to convert it back.

 

No. Even if they have 300,000 unsold bikes sitting around and could make $10,000 straight profit off each one that would just clear existing debt and not help at all with operating costs. 3b is huge for a company KTM's size.

1
11/30/2024 2:06pm
zehn wrote:

$40 MILLION in unpaid salaries?? The fuck? Wonder how much of that is mid to upper management and C suite

with 6500 staff, that averages just over 6K each,  not hard to get that liabilty with owed holiday pay and any redundancy clauses, 

1
MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
NY US
11/30/2024 2:12pm
scott_nz wrote:

with 6500 staff, that averages just over 6K each,  not hard to get that liabilty with owed holiday pay and any redundancy clauses, 

6500 employees but the fallout goes far beyond KTM itself.

1
Beagle
Posts
1762
Joined
8/3/2023
Location
Toulouse FR
11/30/2024 2:58pm
MxAddic wrote:

KTM is 70% market share in the EU. Around 20% here.

Beagle wrote:
[img]https://media1.tenor.com/m/4nO578j2ikcAAAAC/nope.gif[/img]37% Europe, 26% North America(then 17% India, 7% Latin America, 6% Rest of Asia, 5% Australia, 1% Africa)

37% Europe, 26% North America

(then 17% India, 7% Latin America, 6% Rest of Asia, 5% Australia, 1% Africa)

soggy wrote:

Looks like your figured is % of where the sell there bikes not market share. 

Indeed, since there was no way KTM would have 70% market share anywhere in the world (it's 11% in Europe and 10% in USA), I assumed he meant their sales came from 70% Europe and 20% USA.

But you can't make this up, his own source rubbishes his claim, KTM off-road market share in North America (and also globally) is 50%, not 20%

1

Post a reply to: Is Red Bull KTM in big trouble?

The Latest