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"under class structure, the goal is to measure the riders, not the design differences."
In the 70s and 80s, they didn't have short/long travel suspension classes or cartridge/non-cartridge fork classes, but bikes with long travel suspension/cartridge forks were clearly superior were allowed to race.
Each year manufacturers release "new" models, that they claim to be better than the previous model, but a new class is not created each year for the new models.
The only way to measure the riders and not the design differences is a one make, one model race...
"I'm talking about this in the context of racing - primarily pro racing"
Pro racing is controlled by the OEMs, understandably OEMs are protecting their market share, by pushing back against the Stark to prevent it racing at the pro level. Once OEMs have their own electric bikes the rules will change!
I'm not saying electrics are superior dirt bikes (yet 😆), I'm asking the people thinking that electrics are too fast to be raced with ICE and need a separate class : do you think having separate classes would benefit ICE? Because, by their very own claim, that would de facto create one "slow" ICE class and one "fast" electric class.
About skills you should try to see what Varg riders, and especially pros who rode it, say about it. From what I've seen, but obviously Varg owners are more legit to talk about this, amateurs are quickly faster on it because it removes one thing they have not mastered, being always in the perfect gear, and allows them to progress faster by focusing on the rest: body position, feet, precise controls and so on. On the other hand, pro riders don't really gain anything by not shifting since they already do it perfectly. They do state that this bike needs to be ridden differently to be fast on it and it makes them refine their technique : no clutch no crutch so corner entry needs to be very smooth and clean, also this bike requires extreme finesse on the throttle (again no clutch, direct connection to the rear wheel with huge torque available) not to break traction on exit, and steady throttle hand even on gnarly section, whoops and so on.
Interesting Forkner interview, he doesn't seem to be aware that it's exactly how it works: wherever the Vargs race with ICE they are indeed limited to 60 hp in 450 class and 48 hp in 250 class, and nobody is asking to limit ICE hp in exchange. He wants to try the Varg it would be real cool to hear his opinion on it. Roczen definitely liked it! Different sport but it gets crazier for FIM Superenduro where Vargs will be subjected to a limit on power, a minimum weight (possibly requiring to add some ballast) and potentially an incoming torque limit, where none of this is asked for ICE. Stark will be happy to race there anyway and I think that's cool to see a world championship with 2 strokes, 4 strokes and electrics.
You're getting lost in the weeds here. I'm not saying a class has to be like an IROC race where everyone is on (supposedly) identical machines... but it sounds like you are. A class is typically defined by displacement/ skill level/age or combinations thereof. There are additional subsets of rules that establish what mods (if any) are allowed, etc.
"Each year manufacturers release "new" models, that they claim to be better than the previous model, but a new class is not created each year for the new models."
True. The reason a new class isn't created is because the new model meets the existing rules for the current class... but you already knew this didn't you? I mean, you didn't really think this was a valid point, did you? 😄 Did you? 🤔 So, the obvious question is: what's your point? I'll answer that - there isn't one since this is obviously nonsensical. 😁
"The only way to measure the riders and not the design differences is a one make, one model race..."
Um, I think every motorcycle racing organization ever formed since, well, ever, would disagree with you... that's why they created classes and crowned a champion for that class (and your proposal is still a class - short for "classification" - you just aren't advocating for multiple classes). They establish the parameters for each class and the racers all agree to abide by them to try to win. It's a very simple concept. Classes allow for differences between machines (i.e., bore and stroke within displacement rule, different component manufactuers, types of induction, etc.) within limits. Anything outside those limits doesn't qualify for that class. Create a class, establish rules for competitors, go race. The winner is the champ of that class. Period. But again, I know you know this.
We both know what caused the seismic shift in the sport a couple of decades ago was writing rules that put racers at such a competitive disadvantage that they were forced to choose one design to have a realistic chance to win... and it was done intentionally. This shouldn't happen again - unless the intent is to once again force the racers off an existing design. This isn't golf - you don't assign handicaps. You create classes and race in them. Why is that so unappealing to some?
Since you disagree with the current structure of classes, please elaborate on what you think should replace it. Maybe then I'll better understand your position. 👍
First, I think Trevor Stewart would be pretty likely to win that same race on a 450.
Second, having a stark and a 450 and ride Glen Helen. the Stark is certainly at a slight advantage
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To make it brief - why go through all sorts of gyrations to try to "even the playing field" between dissimilar designs when all those problems can be 100% totally avoided by letting like race against like? Why create a problem that doesn't exist if you just do the obvious? It seems so ridiculously simple. Unless there is another agenda by those pushing for mixed racing?
I'll ask again - why is there so much resistance to having an exclusive e-bike class? No one has advocated for detuning 450s to let them race against 250s (to some subjective level of performance that's deemed equivalent, and by whom?) There is no subjective sliding scale of horsepower-to-weight ratio in any of the current current classes. But this seems to be the logic here.
Very odd.
lol right. All I have to do is go read all your consistent posts where you are contradicting this comment. Thanks for proving my comment.
Funny to see that some people think that Trevor wouldn’t win that class on a 450! I think he would have done better.
A few years ago when Trevor was at his best he was making some good and factory 450 guys look a bit silly at Glen Helen on Thursdays. He’s got Glen Helen dialed!
Yeah buddy rips.
Looks like Trevor was hard at work pounding desert motos on the Stark for preparation 💪🏻
Better yet, where are all the guys saying that they aren't even making/delivering the bikes? Suddenly the complaint is that there's too many of them!
Open class: "Run what ya' brung"
Dudes riding 4-strokes:
That was not really my point, anyway, to me the role of national federations should be to promote the sport and provide riders with more opportunities to ride their bikes. See Motorcycling Australia motto: Ride. Race. Enjoy.
Now that electrics are getting a significant share of the market, to me it's up to federations to find ways to help amateurs race them. And many have already done so. AFAIK the federations allowing electrics to race MX all went with mixed/open class and restricting electrics power. My guess: it's easier on the schedule to have an open vet class than adding a new class, it also makes for better racing than 3 guys chasing each other around the track. Maybe in a few years when there will be more electrics it would make sense to have a dedicated class; right now that's just not the path that national federations, regional leagues or race orgs like World Vets, have chosen. Don't ask me why, ask them.
lol, find 1 post I made reflecting such if that's the case. GL!
With your history of deleting posts I'd say they'll need more than luck....
Exactly. I follow racing pretty closely. I would have said he would beat mosiman on a gas bike.
JayBasher i would give your post 1,000 thumbs up for bringing up Red Barchetta. RUSH rules! Someday I’m sure those outlaw races will be real.
Truth lol
Thanks. Honestly, I think it's going to be a long time before we see that, I see a lot of challenges with full e sx & mx. I noticed the national tracks prep less deep the last couple years, and the metal starts, shorter start straights, and mellowed out sx tracks make me wonder. But cool to see the Stark win as it definately has potential. I say rip it deep and water the hell out of it to make the track gnarley later in the day.
Josh Hill just made a video about this:
Here's what he says in the comments:
[Asked if electric bikes have an advantage over ICE]: "At this stage for a pro rider, the answer is no. I'm still faster and more confident on my Yamaha 450. But I think it's inevitable at the rate their progressing its only a matter of time. In fact most C and D riders are instantly faster on the Starks, due to the smooth power deliver with no gear box and clutch. Where most pros use those tools to their advantage."
"I wouldn’t call it a cheater bike at the pro level, all those things that you described as hindering [no need to move foot to brake, no clutch, instant power] are actually helpful tools at the pro level. It’s give and take really, e-bikes thrive in some conditions and struggle in others."
"The bikes are increasing in range with every new update and part that comes out. Could it last a 30+2 at a national in deep hot conditions? Probably not at full power with a top rider absolutely hammering it. At lowered power yes, but I bet its not too far away."
Interesting bit for the Varg riders: his preferred setting is 65 hp 10% regen.
He's teasing about a potential "test" in one AMA pro series... I remember Feld mentioned doing at some point in the future what MXGP will do in 2026: starting an electric class racing at some of the main events. Would love to see what riders like Josh could do on electric bikes at AMA SX tracks!
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I rode a Stark. I wasn’t over the moon about it. But this quote was funny lol.
Most people I know run it between 50-54. My cousin runs his has 53 HP, not sure on the regen.
Be interesting to see someone try to jump a supercross triple out of a tight 180 with your 80hp 450. I imagine it’s all top end power?
Actually it’s not true at all. Its a fucking vitard lie.
I think that’s where the controversy comes in. You mention slight advantage and he only won by a slim margin so it seems like he benefited greatly from that slight advantage. Josh Mosiman’s opinion would be very interesting to hear and probably most telling, but he has definitely won races himself where his bike was faster than everyone else, particularly the 150 he won the 2 stroke WC with that MP modded for him. (Back to back years on the same bike if not mistaken) Personally not a hater of E-bikes I have ridden a Stark I just am pushing back because I think it would hurt the sport from an entertainment perspective as a fan. I think the racing would be close and competitive, I think watching it on TV would be just as entertaining but in-person spectating if there were no ICE bikes would be hard to get used to.
Very much in agreement about the sound, won't change much on TV but for spectators that would be very different.
Some/most would miss the engine sound for sure, they would not bother to spectate if it was electric class only. I think it wouldn't be that much of an issue in stadiums (AX UK is thinking about going all electric...) but for outdoors that would be really weird.
The million dollar question is: can it help attract new people to the sport? What matters for the future of the sport are not the old timers but generating more interest in the young generations (with more and more learning to ride on electrics...).
Question, is Josh getting paid by Stark to be a brand ambassador?
Actually the way mine is tuned is fairly neutral atm. If it wasn't lowered 4 inches, I don't think it would be any big deal to jump it right out of a turn. Power is tunable. It doesn't have to have some massive hit just because it has power.
None of this is complicated. When you're young, you develop a certain hero worship for the rider you most admire. For me, it was Gaston Rahier. So, I bought a used, ratted out, roached, Suzuki TC90 and tried my best to clean it up, hop it up, and make it look like Gaston's works Suzuki RA125 (mostly by way of cleverly placed stickers). I also put stripes on my helmet that resembled his. I then raced it against my buds in a nearby vacant lot.
And life was heaven.
This trend has never stopped. Some of you probably tried to emulate McGrath, others Emig, or Everts, or Bubba, or Ricky - or whoever. And now it's probably Eli or Kenny or Jett or Chase or Herlings or Gasjer. It's an unchanging reality that has existed since the sport was young: when you're a little dude you wanna look like and be like your hero.
Right now, not a single top-level factory rider competes on an E-bike - but they will be, that's a certainty - and they'll win on them too. And when that happens, getting a little kid to desire an ICE bike will be about as easy as selling me a Yamaha would have been way back when, as I loathed Bob Hannah. I'd rather have ridden a donkey than a Yamaha, and that's a fact.
Like I said - it's not complicated.
I’m sure he is, he was Alta’s poster boy for a minute too.
Good question.
Well obviously Josh Hill has had some kind of deal with Stark, as he says in the vid they reached out to him to test the bike, they've probably given him a bike.
I don't think he's a brand ambassador though, mainly because he keeps racing his Yamaha and riding his Surron and all kinds of electric bikes (and making vids about it).
I mean, at Big Hill Jam he rode his Yamaha but Zaragoza beat him (he won the event) on the Varg.
He's racing all over the place, as usual, hill climb, AX, SX, sometimes on his YZ450F, sometimes on his Varg. Actually he's mostly racing on his Yamaha, I can't think of any pro race he did on the Varg this year, SX Tampere is probably his first as an official Stark rider.
Plus Josh saying he's faster and more confident on his Yam than on his Varg, well... he wouldn't be such a good brand ambassador 😆
2024 official Stark riders (with Stark mechanics, Tortelli on hand and everything, you won't see them ride on other brands) are:
Justin Bogle, Jack Brunnel, Eddie Wade in AX UK 2024 (Zaragoza will replace Bogle for AX UK 2025 starting in January),
Justin Bogle, Jorge Zaragoza, Yannis Irsuti and Eddie Wade in SX tour,
Taddy Blazusiak and Eddie Karlsson in various Enduro, hard enduro races in Spain, Sweden, UK..., including FIM Superenduro starting in December.
You know it’s the off season when a Varg thread, with a rider we never heard of, is going 4+ pages 😏
Post a reply to: Trevor Stewart goes 2-1-1 25+ Pro on the Stark at World Vets . . .