Stark Varg is just a Toy

7eleven
Posts
655
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8/20/2012
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
10/16/2024 7:08am
7eleven wrote:
Less regen will definitely help your cause. Zero it out and crank out another moto. This is all part of understanding this technology and how to...

Less regen will definitely help your cause. Zero it out and crank out another moto. This is all part of understanding this technology and how to have it perform its best in whatever conditions you have. 

I live in the land of perfect dirt, here in TX. At 50% regen and 55hp, I will smash 30min moto's all day. When outside temps were high 80's, usually around the 3rd moto I would see the heat light pop on. Outside temps are finally coming down now and the heat light is no longer coming on. 

Smith246 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback I will definitely try the less regen for sure. I am still not sold less regen will somehow gain me 50% more...

Thanks for the feedback I will definitely try the less regen for sure. I am still not sold less regen will somehow gain me 50% more battery life. I hope it can help with the heating issue but.

When you say perfect dirt what do you mean? I can see this lasting 30 mins in dirt like softish loam. I think people's idea of what sand is must vary alot.

That my friend is what I mean by perfect dirt.IMG 0048 4

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Smith246
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Jerramungup, WA, AU
10/16/2024 7:12am
Beagle wrote:
Ok 246, now that you got Vital involved, we need your complete ride report with various regen settings (0, 20, 40, 50 or 60).You said that's...

Ok 246, now that you got Vital involved, we need your complete ride report with various regen settings (0, 20, 40, 50 or 60).

You said that's your personal track, the bike is quiet, so here you go, what time is it in Perth, do you have some lights on the track? 🙃

Ha ha nah no lights on my track, and I live a fair way from Perth.

But yes I will definitely try a battery full at a low regen setting, I'll try 55hp and 20% regen and see how that goes. Should be a good test of whether that makes a difference. Hopefully try tomorrow and will let you know.

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vdrsnk04
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10/16/2024 7:43am
Smith246 wrote:
Sorry for the long post and I'm probably gonna get some hate for this but I'm just sharing my experience incase it could possibly help someone...

Sorry for the long post and I'm probably gonna get some hate for this but I'm just sharing my experience incase it could possibly help someone else.

I'll start by saying I'm not a lover or a hater of electric, I like everything motocross related and just like trying new things. I've always been curious to try the stark and the recent sale has been enough for me to take the plunge. 

I was very hesitant because I mainly ride deep sand, and the sand is where I feel the stark will suffer the most as far as battery life goes. Anyway I purchased a stark last wknd and took it to my personal sand track for its first try. My track is a very deep fast sand track. 

Well one word to describe my first ride was disappointing. Although the bike was a blast to ride it had a battery warning light come up and was dropping the power after only 10 mins. Another 10 mins of riding slow and dicking around and the battery was empty. I thought maybe the first cycle on the battery is the not the best so I tried again the next day with very similar results. 

I sent an email to stark with my concerns hoping they could log into my bike and see if it is faulty or something. They got back to me and said my bike is fine. So after doing some more research and finding a few others with similar issues it seems that the stark can just not handle deep sand and higher HP settings. 

From all other reports if you are riding hardpack or lower hp settings the bike is probably fine. But to me this bike can not be considered as a serious motocross bike if it can't be ridden by a B grade Vet motocross rider in 60hp on a sand track, it is just a toy. 

vdrsnk04 wrote:
My home track is Sandy Oaks in Keithsburg, IL. Doesn’t get deeper or more difficult sand to ride just ask Bob Hannah who raced the National...

My home track is Sandy Oaks in Keithsburg, IL. Doesn’t get deeper or more difficult sand to ride just ask Bob Hannah who raced the National there haha.


But anyway, sorry to hear your experience was not great. My Stark at Sandy Oaks with me will last about 45 minutes on 55hp and 50% regen braking and I’m a +30A guy. Then when I need a half hour break I can charge it quickly and ride again. I will say though if you are constantly spinning and not placing your weight should be on the bike to be efficient it will exhaust the battery faster. 

Smith246 wrote:
I'm not doubting where you ride is very sandy but there is absolutely no way I could get anywhere even close to 45mins. Stories like yours...

I'm not doubting where you ride is very sandy but there is absolutely no way I could get anywhere even close to 45mins. Stories like yours is why I was hoping my stark is faulty but it doesn't seem that way.

 The only person I know who owns a stark also bought one around the same time as me, he rode on a very sandy but slightly slower track than mine and could only just manage 30 minutes. 

Shoot one thing I forgot to ask you, how much do you weigh? Reason I ask is that makes a huge difference on my stark. So I can get the range I mentioned above. But when my friend who is somewhat faster than me, but he weighs roughly 260, whereas I weigh 150. He kills the battery so much faster then I do, not as bad as you say but still much closer to your results then mine.

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vdrsnk04
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10/16/2024 7:53am
Bearuno wrote:
Keep on at Stark if this doesn't get better for you.And, find / make contact with others in Sand Groper Land  and see how they are...

Keep on at Stark if this doesn't get better for you.

And, find / make contact with others in Sand Groper Land  and see how they are going with theirs.

There can always be anomalies with single  bikes / batches of bikes.

I've now got 7 ( or is it 8? - definately more to come If Leisky and Co pass on the discounts that I'm reading about on here) mates with them, and, have had plenty of riding on them. One of our practice tracks is Deep, Deep, near Bottomless River Sand, and None of the bikes have been having problems like yours with it. That the bikes have so much Torque, seems to be advantageous over ICE in those conditions - at least from what I / We  have experienced. Yes, the charge does go down quicker (though nothing like your dreadful 10 minutes), but so do our ICE bikes - my 500 becomes a gas guzzler there,  and my old  small capacity 4t Hybrids do, too.

Sucks to be one with problems, but, hopefully it might be rectified. 

Smith246 wrote:
Thanks for your feedback. I'm still hoping there is something wrong with my bike but it's not looking like it unfortunately. How tight or wide open...

Thanks for your feedback. I'm still hoping there is something wrong with my bike but it's not looking like it unfortunately. How tight or wide open are the tracks you ride? 

Makes me think there is something wrong for certain. Another backup to what I am saying is there are 2 guys in the +50A class which is a very competitive class, my friend I mentioned above is in this class too. Their races are 1:45 minute harescrambles. Those 2 guys usually have between 10-25% battery left at the end depending on conditions.

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The Shop

LungButter
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Yellow Pine, ID, USA
10/16/2024 7:55am

Ummmmm aren't all dirt bikes just toys? 😉

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2
Magoofan
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Shadow Glen (for those who remember), CA, USA
10/16/2024 8:19am
Bend over there's about to be a train coming to prove you're wrong. That you're  just another squid who doesn't know bike setup or how to...

Bend over there's about to be a train coming to prove you're wrong. That you're  just another squid who doesn't know bike setup or how to ride. 

Choo choooo

Here they come....

80580192
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yak651
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Appleton, WI, USA
Fantasy
10/16/2024 8:21am

Can you share a video of your track and you riding it? Like you said everyone’s version of what is “proper sand” varies so would be good to see what you are dealing with

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kNewc
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10/16/2024 8:36am

Honest question, does the bike's phone show your entire last ride in GPS and show the battery rates? I just don't get why guys argue on here if you could easily just show a pic of your last rides and compare. Not that I doubt you, but providing the maps with battery rates would be pretty cool. Then maybe other Stark riders could post theirs and compare.  

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LungButter
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10/16/2024 8:56am
Magoofan wrote:
Here they come....

Here they come....

80580192

That outfit fits you nicely.

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2
MxAddic
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10/16/2024 9:18am

Not looking for an argument but thinking if something was causing an abnormal electrical load with his sled that could account for both reduced battery run time and extra heat causing the thermal trigger.

Oh course I am sure that is impossible.

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5
10/16/2024 9:25am Edited Date/Time 10/16/2024 1:07pm

Sounds like its mostly a cooling issue. Not that it is not still an issue .   If the battery is still above 50% charge and power drops after 10 minutes. There is still a lot of life left in the battery.  Reducing the regen sounds like it  should help  with the heat . From my simple understanding of regen , it would give the motor and battery a little rest with less. When You put power into or take it out of a battery it creates heat. And heat creates resistance.  

 

 I would love to see videos of the track, mostly because I enjoy seeing the amazing private tracks that people have. But it could also help somebody notice something that may help. Most likely though it will open you up to people being critical of something.  Maybe some sort of info from the phone that charts the power and heat , if that is something it keeps track of might be more helpful in figuring out what is different from the people who get a longer runtime.   

 

 Hope You are able to get something figured out. At least the battery is not at 15 or 20% after 10 minutes. So there has to be something that You can do.  Have you tried watching video of Yourself riding and see if You are just spinning the wheel a ton more than it feels like? 

I   figured that sand would be the area they were not as strong in. Perhaps a video would also help potential buyers see what type of sand the Varg will NOT work well in too?  Hopefully its something simple that can be fixed.     

 

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zman721
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Location
Terre Haute, IN, USA
10/16/2024 9:26am
kNewc wrote:
Honest question, does the bike's phone show your entire last ride in GPS and show the battery rates? I just don't get why guys argue on...

Honest question, does the bike's phone show your entire last ride in GPS and show the battery rates? I just don't get why guys argue on here if you could easily just show a pic of your last rides and compare. Not that I doubt you, but providing the maps with battery rates would be pretty cool. Then maybe other Stark riders could post theirs and compare.  

I don't think anyones lying(broadly speaking) when I hear all these battery experiences. I'm a vet b rider also and I couldn't imagine killing a battery in 10 minutes.This going off my experience of riding "deep sand"(liesure time) on my friends varg. 

I bet if people compared how much gas they use in ice bikes, they would end up with very different #'s. There are so many factors between rider weight, riding style, then with the electric HP and regen settings. Add in peoples differents definitions of sand, loam, hardpack...

I thought the varg was awesome, but liking sand tracks and long motos I know its not for me. Pick the right tool for the right job.

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10/16/2024 10:10am
MxAddic wrote:
Not looking for an argument but thinking if something was causing an abnormal electrical load with his sled that could account for both reduced battery run...

Not looking for an argument but thinking if something was causing an abnormal electrical load with his sled that could account for both reduced battery run time and extra heat causing the thermal trigger.

Oh course I am sure that is impossible.

It seems like heat is the primary issue here. He said he gets a reduced power output  and will sometimes have over 50% of the battery life left. Meaning that the software is limiting the power output because of the heat, not because of a lack of power stored.  

It sounds like as far as Stark could tell when they looked at the available Data they think it is OK.   I wonder if there is something that could be increasing the resistance and causing heat, that would not be able to be remotely diagnosed.  Some sort of physical thing that would be difficult to see via data. 

I hope for the sake of the OP, that it is some sort of bug that can be fixed.  I figured there would be some strange bugs that may pop up as people learn the little things that can go wrong , or settings that are not going to work in certain conditions, etc. like any different  type of thing has when it gets into the hands of people who did not build it .  And I hope that it is just that.   It might be that electrics will just not work well in his specific use.  I hope that is not the case for him though. It would suck to have the bike, and love it. But have the runtime so abnormally short.  

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ATKpilot99
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Lake Geneva, WI, USA
10/16/2024 10:36am
facepalm-really 0.gif?VersionId=pZNM9

 

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PFitzG38
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Newport Beach, CA, USA
10/16/2024 11:37am
Smith246 wrote:
I did alot of research before my purchase and was under no illusion that deep sand wasnt going to be the best place for it. But...

I did alot of research before my purchase and was under no illusion that deep sand wasnt going to be the best place for it. But alot of comments were as 8500rpm said above that they were getting 35-45 mins out of the battery and no comments of overheating. I was more than happy with this.

But to only get 20 mins total and power reduction after only 10 mins is definitely on the disappointing side. I am happy to say that the 10 mins of riding I get are absolutely awesome and this bike has blown me away in the actual riding side of things.

I stick by my word saying it is a toy. Stark advertise this bike as a serious motocross bike that can compete with modern 450cc motocross bikes. If you bought any new 450 motocross bike and you had to stop riding after 10 mins, regardles of terrain you would not be calling that a serious motocross bike. Yes I know I am in the minority but the main point of my post was to possibly help someone in the same situation as me.

Beagle wrote:
Could you confirm if you're on the latest firmware and software version?I think Varg should be (at least ) on V 1.0.159 and Varg App on...

Could you confirm if you're on the latest firmware and software version?

I think Varg should be (at least ) on V 1.0.159 and Varg App on V 1.0.183 (407).

Smith246 wrote:
Yeah just checked and it has the latest updates on the bike and in the app.From your previous post I would have loved to test rode...

Yeah just checked and it has the latest updates on the bike and in the app.

From your previous post I would have loved to test rode one first but I live very remote and there is no one with Starks where I live. I have also done a few rides now with the same result. If I keep power to a max of 50hp i can get it down close to 30% before it drops power. But at 60hp which I prefer it will derate well before 50% 

I feel your pain. I sold my 10yr old 08 Big Bore Honda 490 holeshot at will cheater bike for a new KTM sans test ride and havn’t won a race or pulled a holeshot since. Hope you figure it out, I’ll probably just buy another Honda but not after test riding it against a 350. We both should’ve known 

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NV825
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10/16/2024 12:13pm
Dirtydeeds wrote:

Shit, and here I thought all dirt bikes were toys

Did you just assume a role for your bikes!?

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7
aees
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10/16/2024 12:13pm

When Jeff Walker tested it, he burnt through 20% in less than 5min on 80hp on a hard packed track. Sand track you can cut it in half. 15% at 60hp not unreasonable. That's 90% in 30min on hard packed. 15-20min on sand. 

Lines up pretty well with what I have seen and what Stark says. 

Had a c rider friend running his some weeks ago. More hard than soft track. Got 2 20min session then it was down on power. Tracks had some smaller incline but nothing crazy. 

Of course tire choice, track elevation, rider weight and riding style can easily make up 20-30% difference.

As mentioned, I don't have V2G in my E-tron, and for sure not in my race van. If I did, I would consider them. 

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10/16/2024 1:23pm
Smith246 wrote:
Please read it again, nowhere did I say it will not work for everyone, quiet the opposite actually. I am simply posting my experience in the...

Please read it again, nowhere did I say it will not work for everyone, quiet the opposite actually. I am simply posting my experience in the hope it may possibly help someone else along the way.

Edit, If you bought any brand new motocross bike but they told you it can only be ridden for 10 mins then it will run hot and you have to park it, would you consider that a serious motocross bike?

Your second paragraph gave me flashbacks to the first generation Kawazuki 250Fs. 

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10/16/2024 2:06pm Edited Date/Time 10/16/2024 2:07pm

I think we all just have to accept the fact that battery technology isn't quite there yet. Yes, the motor technology is there. The performance you get is insane, especially considering the size. Electric motors are superior to gas engines in this regard. It makes sense, as internal combustion engines have been around for over 200 years. 

I don't see much of a performance increase out of electric motors, they are almost at the top of their performance. Frankly, they don't need to be faster either. 

However, what DOES need to improve is battery technology. Everyone can agree that the Stark would be a much better motorcycle if it can be ridden longer and charged quicker. We will get there, especially considering the big push for electric vehicles. I'm excited for that future when electric vehicles will last just as long as gas engines and charge up just as quick.

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Smith246
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10/16/2024 3:29pm
vdrsnk04 wrote:
My home track is Sandy Oaks in Keithsburg, IL. Doesn’t get deeper or more difficult sand to ride just ask Bob Hannah who raced the National...

My home track is Sandy Oaks in Keithsburg, IL. Doesn’t get deeper or more difficult sand to ride just ask Bob Hannah who raced the National there haha.


But anyway, sorry to hear your experience was not great. My Stark at Sandy Oaks with me will last about 45 minutes on 55hp and 50% regen braking and I’m a +30A guy. Then when I need a half hour break I can charge it quickly and ride again. I will say though if you are constantly spinning and not placing your weight should be on the bike to be efficient it will exhaust the battery faster. 

Smith246 wrote:
I'm not doubting where you ride is very sandy but there is absolutely no way I could get anywhere even close to 45mins. Stories like yours...

I'm not doubting where you ride is very sandy but there is absolutely no way I could get anywhere even close to 45mins. Stories like yours is why I was hoping my stark is faulty but it doesn't seem that way.

 The only person I know who owns a stark also bought one around the same time as me, he rode on a very sandy but slightly slower track than mine and could only just manage 30 minutes. 

vdrsnk04 wrote:
Shoot one thing I forgot to ask you, how much do you weigh? Reason I ask is that makes a huge difference on my stark. So...

Shoot one thing I forgot to ask you, how much do you weigh? Reason I ask is that makes a huge difference on my stark. So I can get the range I mentioned above. But when my friend who is somewhat faster than me, but he weighs roughly 260, whereas I weigh 150. He kills the battery so much faster then I do, not as bad as you say but still much closer to your results then mine.

I weigh around 95kg so I new this was going to increase battery usage a bit. I'm willing to accept my battery range given all my circumstances. If I could go out and get 20 mins solid at any hp and regen setting I wanted then I'd be ok with that. I would like longer because I hear these stories of how long other people get but it is what it is.

Smith246
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Jerramungup, WA, AU
10/16/2024 3:36pm
yak651 wrote:
Can you share a video of your track and you riding it? Like you said everyone’s version of what is “proper sand” varies so would be...

Can you share a video of your track and you riding it? Like you said everyone’s version of what is “proper sand” varies so would be good to see what you are dealing with

Sorry i don't actually have any video of me riding my track and very few photos, 99% of the time I am riding on my own. My profile pic is from my track so you may see a bit on that. I will take some photos of the dirt and post them.

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Flatliner
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10/16/2024 3:43pm

Wasn't Emig surprised about the battery drain when he rode one?

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Johnny Ringo
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Tombstone, AZ, USA
10/16/2024 3:45pm

Branch Stark Vargians out in full force here

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Smith246
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10/16/2024 3:48pm

It is very fine powdery sand.FB IMG 1545004810926 0.jpg?VersionId=U2o1eC. mAmGIAEyzWZ

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vdrsnk04
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10/16/2024 3:58pm
Smith246 wrote:
I'm not doubting where you ride is very sandy but there is absolutely no way I could get anywhere even close to 45mins. Stories like yours...

I'm not doubting where you ride is very sandy but there is absolutely no way I could get anywhere even close to 45mins. Stories like yours is why I was hoping my stark is faulty but it doesn't seem that way.

 The only person I know who owns a stark also bought one around the same time as me, he rode on a very sandy but slightly slower track than mine and could only just manage 30 minutes. 

vdrsnk04 wrote:
Shoot one thing I forgot to ask you, how much do you weigh? Reason I ask is that makes a huge difference on my stark. So...

Shoot one thing I forgot to ask you, how much do you weigh? Reason I ask is that makes a huge difference on my stark. So I can get the range I mentioned above. But when my friend who is somewhat faster than me, but he weighs roughly 260, whereas I weigh 150. He kills the battery so much faster then I do, not as bad as you say but still much closer to your results then mine.

Smith246 wrote:
I weigh around 95kg so I new this was going to increase battery usage a bit. I'm willing to accept my battery range given all my...

I weigh around 95kg so I new this was going to increase battery usage a bit. I'm willing to accept my battery range given all my circumstances. If I could go out and get 20 mins solid at any hp and regen setting I wanted then I'd be ok with that. I would like longer because I hear these stories of how long other people get but it is what it is.

I retract my first statement in this thread now knowing that info. From my testing on my Stark, a persons body weight has a big effect on battery range. 

Smith246
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431
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Jerramungup, WA, AU
10/16/2024 4:21pm
vdrsnk04 wrote:
Shoot one thing I forgot to ask you, how much do you weigh? Reason I ask is that makes a huge difference on my stark. So...

Shoot one thing I forgot to ask you, how much do you weigh? Reason I ask is that makes a huge difference on my stark. So I can get the range I mentioned above. But when my friend who is somewhat faster than me, but he weighs roughly 260, whereas I weigh 150. He kills the battery so much faster then I do, not as bad as you say but still much closer to your results then mine.

Smith246 wrote:
I weigh around 95kg so I new this was going to increase battery usage a bit. I'm willing to accept my battery range given all my...

I weigh around 95kg so I new this was going to increase battery usage a bit. I'm willing to accept my battery range given all my circumstances. If I could go out and get 20 mins solid at any hp and regen setting I wanted then I'd be ok with that. I would like longer because I hear these stories of how long other people get but it is what it is.

vdrsnk04 wrote:
I retract my first statement in this thread now knowing that info. From my testing on my Stark, a persons body weight has a big effect...

I retract my first statement in this thread now knowing that info. From my testing on my Stark, a persons body weight has a big effect on battery range. 

Looks like its time for me to loose some weight 🤣

Do you think running a scoop tyre would help or hurt battery life? On one side it will get more traction and probably create more load but on the other it will lessen wheel spin which may help.

10/16/2024 4:25pm
MxAddic wrote:
Not looking for an argument but thinking if something was causing an abnormal electrical load with his sled that could account for both reduced battery run...

Not looking for an argument but thinking if something was causing an abnormal electrical load with his sled that could account for both reduced battery run time and extra heat causing the thermal trigger.

Oh course I am sure that is impossible.

It seems like heat is the primary issue here. He said he gets a reduced power output  and will sometimes have over 50% of the battery...

It seems like heat is the primary issue here. He said he gets a reduced power output  and will sometimes have over 50% of the battery life left. Meaning that the software is limiting the power output because of the heat, not because of a lack of power stored.  

It sounds like as far as Stark could tell when they looked at the available Data they think it is OK.   I wonder if there is something that could be increasing the resistance and causing heat, that would not be able to be remotely diagnosed.  Some sort of physical thing that would be difficult to see via data. 

I hope for the sake of the OP, that it is some sort of bug that can be fixed.  I figured there would be some strange bugs that may pop up as people learn the little things that can go wrong , or settings that are not going to work in certain conditions, etc. like any different  type of thing has when it gets into the hands of people who did not build it .  And I hope that it is just that.   It might be that electrics will just not work well in his specific use.  I hope that is not the case for him though. It would suck to have the bike, and love it. But have the runtime so abnormally short.  

"I wonder if there is something that could be increasing the resistance and causing heat, that would not be able to be remotely diagnosed.  Some sort of physical thing that would be difficult to see via data."

Wasn't there issues with Dunlop tires rubbing on the swingarm because they had a larger diameter than the Pirelli?

ando
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Location
Perth, AU
10/16/2024 4:50pm

Totally off topic…

Do you ride at Southern Cross?  Is the MX track at Norseman still open?

MxAddic
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USA
10/16/2024 5:46pm

That looks like beach sand. The front tire is plowing the whole time.

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