De-Tuned CR/KX 500 2 stroke

Blake
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 7:58pm
Most can't handle a 450 4 stroke, let alone a 500cc 2 stroke.

Why not detune a 500 down to 450 CC, and have a Mag like MXA or TWMX test that.........say a Service Honda/Kawasaki, CR 450?

TWMX already had faster lap times on a 500 compared to 450...would they improve with a 450 2 stroke being a bit more tame?
Kinda like how the Dunes and sand Mellow a CR/KX 500.

Or has someone tested a 300 2 stroke/350 2 stroke against a 450 4 stroke? If they have, I haven't seen it.
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Bret
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6/2/2010 10:00pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2010 7:19am
Personally I don't think we need to search for the "ideal" engine size. Back when there was a 125, 250, and 500 class, I think things were better. 125 riders needed more power and had to figure out how to make the most with what little they had. A competent 250 rider could use all or nearly all of the power available to them. The 500 class was all about riding a motorcycle that had more power than was humanly possible to use without hurting yourself. Three very different riding styles were required and I think the racing was better for it.
6/2/2010 10:37pm
Bret wrote:
Personally I don't think we need to search for the "ideal" engine size. Back when there was a 125, 250, and 500 class, I think things...
Personally I don't think we need to search for the "ideal" engine size. Back when there was a 125, 250, and 500 class, I think things were better. 125 riders needed more power and had to figure out how to make the most with what little they had. A competent 250 rider could use all or nearly all of the power available to them. The 500 class was all about riding a motorcycle that had more power than was humanly possible to use without hurting yourself. Three very different riding styles were required and I think the racing was better for it.
very good analogy....
CamP
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6/2/2010 10:57pm
I use to have a KTM380SX, which actually was 368cc. It was one of the best engines I've ever used. Put one in a modern chassis and I'd be as happy as a pig in slop.
Blake
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6/3/2010 7:07am
CamP wrote:
I use to have a KTM380SX, which actually was 368cc. It was one of the best engines I've ever used. Put one in a modern chassis...
I use to have a KTM380SX, which actually was 368cc. It was one of the best engines I've ever used. Put one in a modern chassis and I'd be as happy as a pig in slop.
Thats what Im getting at.

A race engine, not an enduro bike hopped up to be a race bike.

I've seen tests where they ported a enduro bike etc, but this is like trying to turn a KDX into a KX.

I'd be all for a 368 2 stroke race bike.

The Shop

nytsmaC
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6/3/2010 7:51am
I think a blueprinted and balanced KX500 engine with a healthy sized flywheel weight and ported for electric-smooth power would be pretty tough to beat. Plus reliability that cannot be matched.
Blake
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6/3/2010 7:53am
nytsmaC wrote:
I think a blueprinted and balanced KX500 engine with a healthy sized flywheel weight and ported for electric-smooth power would be pretty tough to beat. Plus...
I think a blueprinted and balanced KX500 engine with a healthy sized flywheel weight and ported for electric-smooth power would be pretty tough to beat. Plus reliability that cannot be matched.
Makes too much sense.
Sounds like a factory bike with healthy grunt.
Tiki
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6/3/2010 8:46am
nytsmaC wrote:
I think a blueprinted and balanced KX500 engine with a healthy sized flywheel weight and ported for electric-smooth power would be pretty tough to beat. Plus...
I think a blueprinted and balanced KX500 engine with a healthy sized flywheel weight and ported for electric-smooth power would be pretty tough to beat. Plus reliability that cannot be matched.
I would be into riding that. In stock trim those things vibrate more then they move forward. Remember those old football games we had as kids? Same thing. Smoothing that engine out would do a lot for it.
PaleBlue
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6/3/2010 9:04am
If 500 had sold when they were available, then they would still be being produced now.

No conspiracy - just no demand.
nytsmaC
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6/3/2010 9:20am
They hadn't updated the chassis in 16 years, it's no wonder they weren't selling.
CamP
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6/3/2010 9:45am
500cc 2T's are hard to turn because their huge cranks act like a gyro. I wouldn't ride one even if it was put in a modern chassis. The 368cc KTM engine was superb because it was fast but didn't have that heavy run away train feel of a 500 in the corners.
PaleBlue
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6/3/2010 9:47am
nytsmaC wrote:
They hadn't updated the chassis in 16 years, it's no wonder they weren't selling.
when exactly was the last chassis update to the 85 cc Suzuki, Yamaha or Kawasaki?
nytsmaC
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6/3/2010 10:06am
People are going to buy 85cc bikes whether they're modern or not. What else are you going to get for your kid, a TTR? People buy new ones every year because used ones get clapped out, and racing contingency programs.

The 500's on the other hand were up against 250's when it came to marketing and demographics. Of course 99% bought 250's, the technology and performance was 16 years newer and the MSRP was about equal. Hell, I bet they would have sold a lot more 500s if they had even just updated the plastics so that a new, $5500 2004 KX500 didn't look and feel like a 1988.

People are willing to pay $13,000 for a new Service Honda 500, with essentially an engine design that dates back 20 years. Imagine how good and popular that bike would be if Honda had continued to refine the engine over the last 20 years, and the MSRP was between that of a 250f and 450f?

People stopped buying 500s because they were dinosaurs. People stopped buying 250s because the 450s were blowing their doors off. Put 2 and 2 together and I think they'd have a pretty hot selling bike.
Wandell
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6/3/2010 10:13am
nytsmaC wrote:
People are going to buy 85cc bikes whether they're modern or not. What else are you going to get for your kid, a TTR? People buy...
People are going to buy 85cc bikes whether they're modern or not. What else are you going to get for your kid, a TTR? People buy new ones every year because used ones get clapped out, and racing contingency programs.

The 500's on the other hand were up against 250's when it came to marketing and demographics. Of course 99% bought 250's, the technology and performance was 16 years newer and the MSRP was about equal. Hell, I bet they would have sold a lot more 500s if they had even just updated the plastics so that a new, $5500 2004 KX500 didn't look and feel like a 1988.

People are willing to pay $13,000 for a new Service Honda 500, with essentially an engine design that dates back 20 years. Imagine how good and popular that bike would be if Honda had continued to refine the engine over the last 20 years, and the MSRP was between that of a 250f and 450f?

People stopped buying 500s because they were dinosaurs. People stopped buying 250s because the 450s were blowing their doors off. Put 2 and 2 together and I think they'd have a pretty hot selling bike.
Good point. I bet it was hard to sell a $5000 new bike that looked like it was a decade old.
adamdf
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6/3/2010 10:22am
Bret wrote:
Personally I don't think we need to search for the "ideal" engine size. Back when there was a 125, 250, and 500 class, I think things...
Personally I don't think we need to search for the "ideal" engine size. Back when there was a 125, 250, and 500 class, I think things were better. 125 riders needed more power and had to figure out how to make the most with what little they had. A competent 250 rider could use all or nearly all of the power available to them. The 500 class was all about riding a motorcycle that had more power than was humanly possible to use without hurting yourself. Three very different riding styles were required and I think the racing was better for it.
Adam likes this....
nytsmaC
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6/3/2010 10:26am
Bret wrote:
Personally I don't think we need to search for the "ideal" engine size. Back when there was a 125, 250, and 500 class, I think things...
Personally I don't think we need to search for the "ideal" engine size. Back when there was a 125, 250, and 500 class, I think things were better. 125 riders needed more power and had to figure out how to make the most with what little they had. A competent 250 rider could use all or nearly all of the power available to them. The 500 class was all about riding a motorcycle that had more power than was humanly possible to use without hurting yourself. Three very different riding styles were required and I think the racing was better for it.
That's why the 125 class was so cool, watching riders like RC and Stewart finessing an extra couple MPH out of a boat anchor 125 was incredlble. We don't see that level of technique on the 4-strokes, because it's no longer neccessary.
adamdf
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6/3/2010 10:29am
PaleBlue wrote:
If 500 had sold when they were available, then they would still be being produced now.

No conspiracy - just no demand.
I remember when i was a kid about 15 years ago, just staring at the Honda advertisements of the CR500 in the magazines, i always wanted one, they looked so damn sweet back then (1995 i think it was), too bad a 10 year old woulda got flown to the moon on one but still, i was begging my dad to get one for himself so i could just see it in our garage, oh the memories,,,would love to ride one in the dunes for sure...but the truth is, i think the ultimate machine would be coming from KTM if they continue to develop their 250SX and maybe put a 300SX on the market..
Outsider
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6/3/2010 10:36am Edited Date/Time 6/3/2010 10:37am
adamdf wrote:
I remember when i was a kid about 15 years ago, just staring at the Honda advertisements of the CR500 in the magazines, i always wanted...
I remember when i was a kid about 15 years ago, just staring at the Honda advertisements of the CR500 in the magazines, i always wanted one, they looked so damn sweet back then (1995 i think it was), too bad a 10 year old woulda got flown to the moon on one but still, i was begging my dad to get one for himself so i could just see it in our garage, oh the memories,,,would love to ride one in the dunes for sure...but the truth is, i think the ultimate machine would be coming from KTM if they continue to develop their 250SX and maybe put a 300SX on the market..
KTM sells a 300cc kit for the 250sx.

There is a guy on here that built one and has it in his avatar.
pilotdude
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6/3/2010 10:39am
I just picked up my second CR500AFC yesterday. Rebuild 1994 CR500 engine with port and polish, Rekluse Z-start Pro, flywheel weight, FMF Gnarly pipe, in a 2005 CRF450 chassis for $5000. I'll post a pic later today.
pilotdude
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6/3/2010 10:41am
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very controllable but has gobs of power when I want it.
Bret
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6/3/2010 10:54am
pilotdude wrote:
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very...
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very controllable but has gobs of power when I want it.
Controllable, yes, but you can't hold it wide open like a 125. I think we need three classes again. I don't care if it is 4 or 2 stroke. The smallest class needs to be underpowered, the median class needs to be near-perfectly powered, and the premier class needs to be ridiculously over-powered.
Tiki
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6/3/2010 10:56am
pilotdude wrote:
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very...
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very controllable but has gobs of power when I want it.
Still vibrates like a broken washing machine though. Little bit of hand tooling will help eliminate those problems.

In 99 when I bought my CR250 I looked at the 500. I have to say along with the vibration and antiquated chassis design those two elements put me off. Had it been in an aluminum frame I would have jumped at buying one. Even if it was good or bad. When you buy new, you do not want to pay full price for something that is about to become obsolete.

It was these issues that made the thumpers appealing and provided selling value. New technology, controllable to all, jack knife bikes - work well in all aspects and werent going to be phased out anytime soon.
TerryB
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6/3/2010 10:59am Edited Date/Time 6/3/2010 11:00am
Void brought up the idea of eliminating CC classifications in racing. I like this idea. If we need to delineate, maybe we should have classes based on the weight of the bike... or rider? Or both?

Open cc racing seems to work fine in the age-group classes.
adamdf
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6/3/2010 11:27am
pilotdude wrote:
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very...
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very controllable but has gobs of power when I want it.
Tiki wrote:
Still vibrates like a broken washing machine though. Little bit of hand tooling will help eliminate those problems. In 99 when I bought my CR250 I...
Still vibrates like a broken washing machine though. Little bit of hand tooling will help eliminate those problems.

In 99 when I bought my CR250 I looked at the 500. I have to say along with the vibration and antiquated chassis design those two elements put me off. Had it been in an aluminum frame I would have jumped at buying one. Even if it was good or bad. When you buy new, you do not want to pay full price for something that is about to become obsolete.

It was these issues that made the thumpers appealing and provided selling value. New technology, controllable to all, jack knife bikes - work well in all aspects and werent going to be phased out anytime soon.
Good points Tiki, noone wants to buy new-old stuff..
rallendude
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6/3/2010 11:37am
My new Service Honda does vibrate but it's not that noticeable on the track. The power is brutal right now and I have to be really careful when it comes to throttle control. I'm getting the suspension dialed slowly and it gets better every time out.

The bike handles great though. It turns better than a 450. Maybe not as good as the 250f the chassis got taken from but still better than a 450. It's lighter than a 450 and has way more power.

I'm thinking of doing the balance and smooth porting trick next time I get a few bucks burning a hole in my pocket.
WhKnuckle
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6/3/2010 12:49pm
If someone - like KTM - built a great 360 to 400 two stroke in a light chassis, every Vet in America would want one. And Vets have the money to buy what they want. Hint, hint...
rmpilot
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6/3/2010 1:13pm
pilotdude wrote:
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very...
Personally, after having raced the 500, i think people overestimate the "uncontrollability" factor of them. Especially with a Rekluse and a flywheel weight, mine is very controllable but has gobs of power when I want it.
ive ridden a cr 500 and personally to me it felt like the easiest bike to ride that ive ever been on. it was skewed by being on sand though.
sixdayguy
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6/3/2010 5:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:18pm
I don't want to start a 2T Vs. 4T argument. I have owned rode and raced all types and sizes. I had a 125 & 250 one year and raced both. Every-time I got off the 125 and on the 250, the 250 felt like it had a flat rear tire it would spin instead of hook up. My favorite was a big bore 4T 600cc It was the easiest to ride. Why don't they make any bikes like that anymore? The motors make so much power that they can be in a very mild state of tune, and because they don't rev real high they are very reliable. Saying that I will say that I believe that the costs of the 4T has been bad for the sport. I find myself dreaming of a new big bore 2T.
sixdayguy
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6/3/2010 5:58pm
Here are the bikes I have been dreaming of building, all the stuff is out there just need some $$$$$$$$ LOL
83 Maico 320
86 Maico M-star 500
2011 KTM 380 sx
2011 KTM 570 sxf "E85"
I would love to ride the new KTM 350 as well, I have found memories of a KLX300
6/3/2010 6:12pm
I liked the 500 2 strokes. My first one was in '85, Honda CR500. Last was a '95 CR500. Never really noticed excess vibration on them. The fact that you had to exercise some throttle control on them was what made the 500 class appealing to me.

It weeded out the throttle happy guys real quick when the 500 hit and augered them into the ground.
KGAspeed
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6/3/2010 6:33pm
My dad bought a (new) '91 KX500 once just for something different. He was coming off of riding KX250s for years (and I was on the same - I think we both had '91 KX250s too).

I remember racing what is now the Moose Run in IL and after the first lap, I broke the case, so just to finish the race, I grabbed my dad's 500 and finish the other 3+ hours of the event that was left (if anyone is familiar, they are pretty technical events)

I actually had a really great time racing it for the remainder of the day - it was so ridiculously fast, but in a deceiving way. I never really noticed until I had to slow down from a wide open field into a tight woods section - that made it really obvious I was going way faster than I realized (and I probably weighed 120lbs which nearly gave me the rag-doll effect at high speeds).

It was so much fun I almost sold my 250 and bought that when he was ready to sell it (he was pretty much over it and wanted a 250 again).

But it just wasn't practical and had way more power than I even remotely needed. That, and I had to jump off a building to start it.

I do agree that the dated technology is what killed it, not the lack of demand so much. The 250s were definitely more popular of course, but there were always those guys that ONLY rode 500s. They had their niche. Now with the 450s, that niche is even smaller though.

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