Prado opinion about the lappers

Radical
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8/22/2024 3:52pm
Radical wrote:
I say leave it all alone.  People will be complaining about the exact same thing 20 years from now, but if you make the top 40...

I say leave it all alone.  People will be complaining about the exact same thing 20 years from now, but if you make the top 40 you've earned the right to race.

 

I would counter that if you’re getting lapped 2+ times you’re not actually racing

I would say that you're not really in the race for first, but you may be having a fierce battle with 2 or 3 other riders who've also been lapped 2+ times.

I see it the same as an Ironman competition.  There are some who are strong all the way to the finish line.  But there are also athletes who, for one reason or another simply finish, and they're freaking beat, done, cooked, nothing left, but they finish the task, and my hat's off to them.

The last place riders who're being lapped are super fast athletes who win local, and regional races.

But when I see them riding about 1 mile an hour, I forget how intense a 35 minute outdoor motocross moto is.  They're simple in the same boat as the triathletes I just described.  They need to be safe, and not do anything stupid, but they have a right to finish the race.

If I were to qualify for a national, I would finish, and I'd do everything within my ability (and a little bit more) to win, no matter what the odds or who showed up.

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Beagle
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8/22/2024 11:06pm

Here's Herlings take on this:

“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap them two or three times, I think they should put a rule that if you go over 6 or 8 seconds a lap slower in timed practice, you are not on the level of the Motocross World Championship. When you go to MotoGP and F1 it is tenths or maybe seconds (between them). But also when I look at the US, fair enough, there are also guys outside the top 20 are also not super fast. Okay, lapping is part of racing but it should not be if I buy a bike today and I pay a certain amount of money I can race the Motocross World Championship, that should not be possible.”

https://gatedrop.com/prado-and-herlings-on-backmarkers-in-mxgp/

As Herlings say, lapping is part of racing but in most other pro motorsports there is some rule based on practice or qualification laptimes to limit the speed differential between the fastest and slowest riders (107%). And it's not controversial at all, everyone accepts it for obvious safety reasons. Imagine putting on a MotoGP race a top national rider that would be 8s a lap slower...

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ando
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8/22/2024 11:20pm

It brings up the dichotomy that exists in the US MX and SX series.  On one hand it's trying to maintain the tradition of privateers being able to rock up at a national and have a go; on the other it's promoting itself as the premier MX and SX series in the world, where some local pro can be on the same track as the best riders in the world even though he's not even in the same zip code speed wise.  It's a pretty unique circumstance for an elite sporting series.

Lappers is one part of the issue, but there are others where having such a disparity results in making decisions that are not optimal.  One recent example is the whoops in SX.  I'd bet that the "safety" issue of the whoops didn't apply to anyone on a factory bike, but you have to make the track safe for everyone, including the guys at the tail end trying to qualify for the night show.  Now the whoops are almost laughable for the top ten guys and you've taken away a technical advantage that some riders have who know how to skim whoops.

 

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sam hain
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8/26/2024 6:23am

Just to revisit this and my opinion earlier in the thread, Jeff Walker was lapped twice by Chase in moto 1 at Ironman. Dude should have been blacked flagged, if you're that slow that you get lapped TWICE on a 1.2 mile course you have no business out there.

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Hodge336
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8/26/2024 9:25am
Beagle wrote:
Here's Herlings take on this:“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap...

Here's Herlings take on this:

“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap them two or three times, I think they should put a rule that if you go over 6 or 8 seconds a lap slower in timed practice, you are not on the level of the Motocross World Championship. When you go to MotoGP and F1 it is tenths or maybe seconds (between them). But also when I look at the US, fair enough, there are also guys outside the top 20 are also not super fast. Okay, lapping is part of racing but it should not be if I buy a bike today and I pay a certain amount of money I can race the Motocross World Championship, that should not be possible.”

https://gatedrop.com/prado-and-herlings-on-backmarkers-in-mxgp/

As Herlings say, lapping is part of racing but in most other pro motorsports there is some rule based on practice or qualification laptimes to limit the speed differential between the fastest and slowest riders (107%). And it's not controversial at all, everyone accepts it for obvious safety reasons. Imagine putting on a MotoGP race a top national rider that would be 8s a lap slower...

If we only kept the guys within six seconds of the fastest qualifier at Ironman we would have had a 12 man 450 classIMG 0034 0

3
8/26/2024 11:17am
Beagle wrote:
Here's Herlings take on this:“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap...

Here's Herlings take on this:

“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap them two or three times, I think they should put a rule that if you go over 6 or 8 seconds a lap slower in timed practice, you are not on the level of the Motocross World Championship. When you go to MotoGP and F1 it is tenths or maybe seconds (between them). But also when I look at the US, fair enough, there are also guys outside the top 20 are also not super fast. Okay, lapping is part of racing but it should not be if I buy a bike today and I pay a certain amount of money I can race the Motocross World Championship, that should not be possible.”

https://gatedrop.com/prado-and-herlings-on-backmarkers-in-mxgp/

As Herlings say, lapping is part of racing but in most other pro motorsports there is some rule based on practice or qualification laptimes to limit the speed differential between the fastest and slowest riders (107%). And it's not controversial at all, everyone accepts it for obvious safety reasons. Imagine putting on a MotoGP race a top national rider that would be 8s a lap slower...

Hodge336 wrote:
If we only kept the guys within six seconds of the fastest qualifier at Ironman we would have had a 12 man 450 class

If we only kept the guys within six seconds of the fastest qualifier at Ironman we would have had a 12 man 450 classIMG 0034 0

And the racing wouldn’t have been affected in the slightest

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Beagle
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8/26/2024 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2024 12:11pm
Beagle wrote:
Here's Herlings take on this:“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap...

Here's Herlings take on this:

“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap them two or three times, I think they should put a rule that if you go over 6 or 8 seconds a lap slower in timed practice, you are not on the level of the Motocross World Championship. When you go to MotoGP and F1 it is tenths or maybe seconds (between them). But also when I look at the US, fair enough, there are also guys outside the top 20 are also not super fast. Okay, lapping is part of racing but it should not be if I buy a bike today and I pay a certain amount of money I can race the Motocross World Championship, that should not be possible.”

https://gatedrop.com/prado-and-herlings-on-backmarkers-in-mxgp/

As Herlings say, lapping is part of racing but in most other pro motorsports there is some rule based on practice or qualification laptimes to limit the speed differential between the fastest and slowest riders (107%). And it's not controversial at all, everyone accepts it for obvious safety reasons. Imagine putting on a MotoGP race a top national rider that would be 8s a lap slower...

Hodge336 wrote:
If we only kept the guys within six seconds of the fastest qualifier at Ironman we would have had a 12 man 450 class

If we only kept the guys within six seconds of the fastest qualifier at Ironman we would have had a 12 man 450 classIMG 0034 0

It's funny because your screenshot shows 36 riders but they were 78 trying to qualify.

Although the results sheet says the top36 qualify, indeed 3 of the 4 riders that were lapped twice (Eperson and Walker in moto1, Eperson, Rodbell and Norred in Moto2) did qualify outside top36 (38, 46, 49). I'm definitely not familiar enough with the rules to understand what happened here.

For me, a performance clause (based on qualifying time) would make more sense than a given number of riders to qualify at each round. Like if you take 107% (that would have been 9 seconds on this day), you would have had 34 starters and just one rider lapped twice in moto1 and none in moto2. Arguably that would have been the same result if they had applied their own rule of top36 qualify, so not overly eliminating privateers (in this example that'd be 6 riders), just that a percentage based on top performance makes more sense than a predetermined number of riders.

1
8/26/2024 1:01pm
Beagle wrote:
Here's Herlings take on this:“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap...

Here's Herlings take on this:

“I completely agree with Jorge here, I don’t want to say names but there are a couple of guys, we lap them two or three times, I think they should put a rule that if you go over 6 or 8 seconds a lap slower in timed practice, you are not on the level of the Motocross World Championship. When you go to MotoGP and F1 it is tenths or maybe seconds (between them). But also when I look at the US, fair enough, there are also guys outside the top 20 are also not super fast. Okay, lapping is part of racing but it should not be if I buy a bike today and I pay a certain amount of money I can race the Motocross World Championship, that should not be possible.”

https://gatedrop.com/prado-and-herlings-on-backmarkers-in-mxgp/

As Herlings say, lapping is part of racing but in most other pro motorsports there is some rule based on practice or qualification laptimes to limit the speed differential between the fastest and slowest riders (107%). And it's not controversial at all, everyone accepts it for obvious safety reasons. Imagine putting on a MotoGP race a top national rider that would be 8s a lap slower...

Hodge336 wrote:
If we only kept the guys within six seconds of the fastest qualifier at Ironman we would have had a 12 man 450 class

If we only kept the guys within six seconds of the fastest qualifier at Ironman we would have had a 12 man 450 classIMG 0034 0

Not comparable with MXGP as Herlings is also referencing from the fact that the last couple of races where held on very short and narrow tracks. Lappers are part of it but guys getting lapped 2, 3 or even 4 times is a complete joke. 

rym
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8/27/2024 11:09am

What surprises me is that nobody mentions that a lot of capable riders  just do nationals (or even go to the US) and skip GPs because it only costs money. 

Imo we shouldnt push for a 106% rule or just 30 riders gates but focus on how infront and brands can make GPs attractive again for capable riders like Tixier, Mewse, Gouppilon, Jacobi, Rizzi, etc to do all EU gps. 

Not diminish but improve.

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Paul333
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8/27/2024 11:18am
ATKpilot99 wrote:

He's going to love the AMA nationals 😆

Lucky for him it’s the GP’s. Youthstream/FIM only allows 14-19 other riders to race…


How many lappers could their be?

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ando
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8/27/2024 8:10pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:

He's going to love the AMA nationals 😆

Paul333 wrote:

Lucky for him it’s the GP’s. Youthstream/FIM only allows 14-19 other riders to race…


How many lappers could their be?

He's moving to the US next year.

Original 44
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8/28/2024 4:43am

This sport is different from other sports and that’s what makes it so special. We’ve been doing this for a long time with 40 riders and it works. Without the privateers, this sport would suffer. 

I posted this a couple weeks ago:

I have absolutely no problem with 40 of the best riders in the US lining up and racing against each other. These guys have sponsors and are just trying to make some money at racing motocross. These guys are the backbone of this sport. 

If we had the same system that the MXGP has with all the different classes like the EMX 125 and 250 championships then it might be a different story. I really do like watching the European championships along with the MXGP‘s and I wish we had something like that in the US, but as of right now we don’t, so this is the best that these guys can do to make some money. I love both championships and I’m glad that we live in an age where we can enjoy watching both. 

 


 

4
8/28/2024 9:59am

If you’ve been lapped twice and you’re outside points paying position. It’s time to pack it in. This isn’t the 70s and 80s. Bikes have twice the HP. Prado is right, it is unsafe if you’re rolling around out there.

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VHM
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8/28/2024 11:59am Edited Date/Time 8/28/2024 12:03pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:

He's going to love the AMA nationals 😆

Actually I think so since the tracks are less narrow than in the GPs.

Didn`t Herlings say at Ironman that it`s possible to pass riders "everywhere" compared to Europe?

Mavetism
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8/28/2024 12:07pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:

He's going to love the AMA nationals 😆

VHM wrote:
Actually I think so since the tracks are less narrow than in the GPs.Didn`t Herlings say at Ironman that it`s possible to pass riders "everywhere" compared...

Actually I think so since the tracks are less narrow than in the GPs.

Didn`t Herlings say at Ironman that it`s possible to pass riders "everywhere" compared to Europe?

Yeah. Herlings was like "american tracks are amazing, so many lines, in the GP's it's impossible to come from last to first for example". Then someone from the media responds with "it's weird, every weekend the riders tell us it's one line", then showing the faces of Bagget and Musquin. Gold moment right there. 😂

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Tumic
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8/28/2024 2:10pm
Mavetism wrote:
Yeah. Herlings was like "american tracks are amazing, so many lines, in the GP's it's impossible to come from last to first for example". Then someone...

Yeah. Herlings was like "american tracks are amazing, so many lines, in the GP's it's impossible to come from last to first for example". Then someone from the media responds with "it's weird, every weekend the riders tell us it's one line", then showing the faces of Bagget and Musquin. Gold moment right there. 😂

”Then they should not come to the GP’s” or something like that Herlings responded 

1
8/28/2024 2:35pm
Mavetism wrote:
Yeah. Herlings was like "american tracks are amazing, so many lines, in the GP's it's impossible to come from last to first for example". Then someone...

Yeah. Herlings was like "american tracks are amazing, so many lines, in the GP's it's impossible to come from last to first for example". Then someone from the media responds with "it's weird, every weekend the riders tell us it's one line", then showing the faces of Bagget and Musquin. Gold moment right there. 😂

Tumic wrote:

”Then they should not come to the GP’s” or something like that Herlings responded 

They both also jumped in defensively and said that many of the tracks are one line 😂 that whole weekend had so many memorable moments and sound bites

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David934
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8/29/2024 2:48am

It stupid compare MXGP with MotoGP because of speed. Sorry Jorge, sorry Jeffrey, it is bullshit. I dont want watching 10 or 15 riders at the track. You are World champs, so you can deal with lappers.

8/29/2024 6:27am
David934 wrote:
It stupid compare MXGP with MotoGP because of speed. Sorry Jorge, sorry Jeffrey, it is bullshit. I dont want watching 10 or 15 riders at the...

It stupid compare MXGP with MotoGP because of speed. Sorry Jorge, sorry Jeffrey, it is bullshit. I dont want watching 10 or 15 riders at the track. You are World champs, so you can deal with lappers.

Like you said, it’s a World Championship. Why do we need to pander to guys who clearly aren’t good enough to be there? In this country, why should Chase and Hunter have to deal with the LCQ guys?

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