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It's quite simple, really, you don't even have to ask: the Stark Varg is far better than any ICE race bike (except maybe Tony's ESR 325 YZ) in any condition. It's way faster, it makes the track smoother, it turns on a dime, flies over whoops and jumps, your whips become full barrel rolls, when you ride one, women want to be with you, men want to be you, you feel like a superhero and your boss is so impressed by you he'll give you a huge raise.
It sounds like you have the perfect fit for a Varg. I think you'll be waiting a while though if it was this January that you put money down. Its been posted here and there that some people are still a year away from their adjusted ETA. I think that Stark might have a better answer since they can see when you placed the order and where you are in line. I have a customer who had an original ETA of December of 22. I have not heard from him on an updated ETA. ( I do graphics not a Stark dealer).
18 pounds is a lot of weight on a motorcycle, regardless of handling characteristics. I'd be curious to know the performance with the old configuration, and just how far off the mark they were.
Is the 260 lbs. dry or curb weight? lol
I put my deposit down in late December of '21 or early Jan '22. I can't remember exactly. ( I just edited my original post stating December of '21)
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The "media event" bikes ridden by the press were _not_ lighter than the production bikes. The production bikes have a better battery than the media event bikes.
Would happily sacrifice some run time for a 10% weight reduction on 260 lbs !
What size battery would be involved to accomplish that ?
8tensolutions wrote
"Either way, the electric technology over the next 10 years will be awesome to watch. It's going to be awesome and everyone here saying it's terrible will be lining up to ride one and likely have one in their garage too."
The basic technology for motors and for batteries is mature, and maxed, and any gains using the existing designs of motor and battery chemistry are in tiny increments. There is no game change tech on the way, in fact cost pressures on rare earth metals, neodymium say, used in racing E motors will probably see them phased out in favour of less desirable and powerful materials. We know Li-Ion is at a dead end. For increased efficiency going in, and discharging, the voltage EV's operate at have to be raised- some EV race cars are operating at well over 1000 volts and 800 is common. These are lethal amounts and anyone building, or regulating, E MX motorcycles is going to be very leery of allowing the electrocution of riders, or workers, because of a crash or other malfunction.
What it means is for increased range the batteries have to get heavier and bigger and the range/weight/cost/bulk trade off very quickly become acute.
We are seeing this already with the Stark now being quoted as 18 lbs heavier for a 0.3 kWh increase (Stark was quoting 6.2kWh battery, 242 lbs, but seem to have shifted it down to 6.0 kWh) in battery size. The direction is obvious. The bikes have to be hugely heavy pigs to fly. 350 lb EMX and E Enduro may be a thing in 10 years but far more likely IC bikes will still rule and E machines will still be niche curiosities- as they presently are and have been for longer than combustion engined machines.
Maybe Anton will change the name to 'Stark Gris' or 'Stark Pigen' when they release the 20 minute duty rated 8 kWh model at 310 lbs?
With power tools those new cells they are using are proven to be better . Many independent tests show the tools have more power for longer taking up a similar amount of space. So the packs are similar size but more AH and I guess heavier too. Some tools have bigger gains than others , generally the tools that can make use of the extra power see bigger gains. There are tons of youtube videos showing tool performance with the different cells. And some get in-depth and explain where they work better , they weigh the packs , etc. Other than Graphene or pack style cells , the 21700 cells are the newest cells I see in powertools. With most companies using the 21700's in their best batteries. The pack style cells seem to be the ones that like to catch fire easier. the 21700's have proven durability and have helped many houses be built , maybe even killed some snakes here and there.
If you took 100 cells out of it (70g per cell) that is 7kg less for a 25% battery capacity loss. Now the battery can deliver less power (because it has more internal resistance) so you can reduce the size of the motor by perhaps 2kg. Now you have 9kg less, 75% of the energy and power. These are all back of the envelope calcs and I could be off by a little bit.
Thanks. Apparently there's 'no free lunch' to be had, even on the back of an envelope.
Still .. 240lbs, 45HP, little reciprocating mass - if it could sustain a reasonably quick trail pace for up to three hours that would be sufficient for many off road users that aren't doing MX at full throttle for 30-40 minutes.
That 20 lb difference is pretty big off road when the going gets slower & more technical. But it's designed as an MX bike, so ...
Maybe they can offer an light weight option in the future after some vargs are out in the real world and people can see what the battery life is for their style of riding and how they want to use it. Until then , I doubt it would be very popular of an option. Maybe something that was a 250 version or 125 . It should be easier to go down on power and reduce weight and range. Maybe they could figure out a fast charge option that would have half to 75% the range. But re charge to full in 15 ,20 or 30 minutes?
I had an mxr that I put 60 hours on before selling.
Electric feels comparable or better everywhere except for in the air. Left hand rear brake is game changing. Jumping is the only situation that felt mildly different than an ice bike.
With the Alta “regen” braking if you close the throttle completely the rear wheel will come to a stop if the jump is large enough. Hold it wide open off a jump and the rear wheel would spin fast enough to feel like it would bring the front wheel up.
So the greatest bike on earth weighs more than a Suzuki
Bryan, I assume one of the “bikes to ship” was yours? Do you have an estimated delivery date?
Hmmm...that (jumping) would take some getting used too.
Why did you sell it? (Just curious).
I think I could get used to a left hand rear brake (though I might move it to the right hand-left hand front brake-so its the same as my mountain bike...or maybe that would completely jack up my brain? I don't know. haha).
Insert mom jokes here
Eliminating the need to move your feet on the pegs with shifting & brake really let’s you master your feet positioning technique.
My favorite bike I ever owned. I live in city limits and I rode it everywhere. Neighbors loved it.
Sold it right when company started taking on water. Wanted to get a few bucks back out of it instead of nothing down the road if the electronics ever failed.
I assume they figured range was what they’d be judged hardest on, not weight, and went for the sacrifice. They can keep this range as the standard, and work on weight going forward, if people are happy with the range.
Anyone saying battery tech is maxed out is an idiot. Batteries twice as dense are already in the prototype stage, and betting against progression is usually a bad idea. Google “Moore’s law”.
Pit Row
For you guys hung up on weight. Is the weight of a full tank of gas at the front end of a moto really that big an impediment? This Varg weight needs to be compared to a fully wet weight of an ICE bike, if you're into comparing. But then you'd also need to somehow account for the inertia thing. IMO - ain't no thing...
Would agree.
Would also add that the first 450’s were not 245-250lbs like they are today. So I bet the Varg gets lighter with time and progression too.
So after all that hype it’s heavier than an Alta?
I'm not at all surprised at the increased weight, tbh. Weight vs. range has always been the most fundamental trade (and shortcoming) of electric bikes.
Buuuut....you also have to look at the weight of an ICE bike full of gas to get a true apples to apples comp. I "think" my 2023 KTM 450 XCF is like 228 lbs dry, so that puts it roughly at 243 with gas (that may be a little light, but it's ballpark). So probably 15-17lbs heavier for the Varg...less for some of the other Japanese bikes (maybe 10-12 lbs lighter than the Varg?). Not necessarily a showstopper for some riding, but it's worth considering...
Right on!
Honestly Alta folding, is the number one reason I wouldn't buy a stark (assuming I was a moto-only guy). I in the "wait until one of the big 5 come out with one, or Stark proves its got some serious staying power in the industry" camp. I wouldn't want to buy what would ultimately turn into a $14K conversation piece if Stark goes under and the electronics fail.
Huge difference. Stark has 18,000+ Varg preorders. Alta sold ~1000 bikes worldwide total. Even if only 1/3 of the Varg preorders convert to full paying customers, thats still 6x more than Alta sold. Stark, and support for the Varg, will be around for a very long time.
I seriously doubt that the 18,000 preorders will turn into actual sales. It will be interesting to see what the actual percentage is of that number. Asking for a $100 deposit on a $13k machine is NOT a realistic way to gauge actual demand.
Well for the sake of all Stark customers, and the industry as a whole, I hope you’re right…only time will tell.
That’s what I’ve been saying. Especially with the change in the economy since they started taking pre-orders.
The small preorder amount was another reason I think they were looking to be acquired. They picked a small number to maximize the preorders to maximize the interest from potential buyers based on the “demand” for from potential customers (we presold 18000 bikes…look at how awesome we are! You should buy us!)…they could have asked for $1000 and gotten a better indication of actual interest, but they’d of gotten a fraction of the preorders.
They took a page out of Tesla's playbook. So I assume all 18000 have to be delivered first before they sell parts or can I buy parts and battery today?
Stark didn't switch to 21700, the 6kWh battery pack used 400 x 21700 Molicel P42A batteries...
The 6.5kWh battery pack uses 400 x 21700 Molicel P45B batteries...
Same 21700 battery pack design, tiny change in battery cell diameter and length, individual battery cell capacity increased from 4200mAh to 4500mAh.
Battery cell capacity will keep increasing, 5000mAh batteries are available, 6000mAh have just hit the market.
I wrote month ago that 400 21700 cells would enable 7.2 kWh battery, but an engineer that worked on the bike responded that they use high amperage cells with less capacity.
They could limit the maximum power of the bike and put higher capacity cells in the pack. Could be the way for an off-road model.
BTW: they could easily put a motor in the front wheel and have AWD off-road bike.
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