Stark Varg Reviews

#434 wrote:

The same reason why a tiny start up from California turned the car industry on its head: It’s a different technology and maybe you just can’t...

The same reason why a tiny start up from California turned the car industry on its head: It’s a different technology and maybe you just can’t get the guys in R&D, that developed ICEs in frames all their life, to fiddle around with electric motors and built a completely different package. All processes in development, testing and production at e.g. KTM were made to built an engine in a frame (the rest are parts from suppliers). So maybe it’s the better approach to start with a blank sheet of paper, hire fresh staff with new ideas and an open mind. After all, there’s mot much left of a traditional dirt bike in a Varg. 

Stark, IMO, hired the right people and bought great engineering services (motor/electronics from Croatia and had help with frame geometry from this MotoGP frame god) and they seemed to be well funded. So I ask you why it’s so unrealistic that they could pull it off?

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t really answer your question: they reason why Japan and Austria haven’t really tried is a) they know how to built normal dirt bikes and make money with it. So why would they change that? b) they thought there was no demand until an outsider showed them that there actually is. 

I‘m sure they all have task force working at the moment on how a electric dirt bike from them will look like and how they can stop Stark from competing against them. 

Goldmember wrote:

I think it's fair to say that talking about Tesla with runs on the board, and Stark, who have supplied exactly zero bikes, is a bit...

I think it's fair to say that talking about Tesla with runs on the board, and Stark, who have supplied exactly zero bikes, is a bit of a stretch.

Honda/Mugen have shown a MX bike prototype in 2019 based on the CRF250R. Given that building the chassis and running gear for an EV is easy for an existing manufacturer and Honda's battery provider, Maxell, can make anything they want, this bike has never been productionised. There was a lot of consumer interest in it too. Mugen, Honda's offshoot special projects subsidiary has enormous E race bike experience, they've won the E bike category here, there and everywhere including the Isle of Man. They are far more familiar with the nitty gritty of E than Stark. So what is holding them back? It's obviously not tech resources, funding, facilities or marketing consumer demand. 

#434 wrote:

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. ...

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. 

The Mugen bike btw couldn’t compete with the Stark. It’s battery is smaller and I heard the power is around 25-30 HP (I can‘t remember which Podcast I heard that number). But the biggest problem, which also plagues a lot of car manufacturers, is that they use an ICE platform and shoehorn an electric drivetrain into it. That‘s a rolling compromise from the get-go. Look at the s..t BMW is producing for example… embarrassing!

So starting with a fresh approach, a blank sheet of paper and an open mind needs commitment and courage. Something board members of big cooperations lack. All they want is good numbers, so they sell what sells good st the moment and want to cut R&D costs. Or why do you think Mugen and not HRC did this project?

#434 wrote:

The same reason why a tiny start up from California turned the car industry on its head: It’s a different technology and maybe you just can’t...

The same reason why a tiny start up from California turned the car industry on its head: It’s a different technology and maybe you just can’t get the guys in R&D, that developed ICEs in frames all their life, to fiddle around with electric motors and built a completely different package. All processes in development, testing and production at e.g. KTM were made to built an engine in a frame (the rest are parts from suppliers). So maybe it’s the better approach to start with a blank sheet of paper, hire fresh staff with new ideas and an open mind. After all, there’s mot much left of a traditional dirt bike in a Varg. 

Stark, IMO, hired the right people and bought great engineering services (motor/electronics from Croatia and had help with frame geometry from this MotoGP frame god) and they seemed to be well funded. So I ask you why it’s so unrealistic that they could pull it off?

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t really answer your question: they reason why Japan and Austria haven’t really tried is a) they know how to built normal dirt bikes and make money with it. So why would they change that? b) they thought there was no demand until an outsider showed them that there actually is. 

I‘m sure they all have task force working at the moment on how a electric dirt bike from them will look like and how they can stop Stark from competing against them. 

Goldmember wrote:

I think it's fair to say that talking about Tesla with runs on the board, and Stark, who have supplied exactly zero bikes, is a bit...

I think it's fair to say that talking about Tesla with runs on the board, and Stark, who have supplied exactly zero bikes, is a bit of a stretch.

Honda/Mugen have shown a MX bike prototype in 2019 based on the CRF250R. Given that building the chassis and running gear for an EV is easy for an existing manufacturer and Honda's battery provider, Maxell, can make anything they want, this bike has never been productionised. There was a lot of consumer interest in it too. Mugen, Honda's offshoot special projects subsidiary has enormous E race bike experience, they've won the E bike category here, there and everywhere including the Isle of Man. They are far more familiar with the nitty gritty of E than Stark. So what is holding them back? It's obviously not tech resources, funding, facilities or marketing consumer demand. 

lostboy819 wrote:

Now I would buy this if Honda made it, we know Honda wont be out of business anytime soon. Hope they build one and maybe a...

Now I would buy this if Honda made it, we know Honda wont be out of business anytime soon. Hope they build one and maybe a Elec pit bike/play bike too. 

JM485 wrote:

So is anyone going to take me up on my offer for a wager, or are you guys who think this is all an elaborate scam...

So is anyone going to take me up on my offer for a wager, or are you guys who think this is all an elaborate scam going to just keep running your mouths and circle jerking each other to see who can come up with the most crack-pot theory out there?  I mean someone should be willing to separate this fool from his money, right?  

semifreeguy wrote:

Dudes who wear turtlenecks are the ones that circle jerk. 

#434 wrote:

Dude, you‘re obviously here just to troll, which is okay, but could you at least try to be a little bit funny, please?

JM485 wrote:

So is anyone going to take me up on my offer for a wager, or are you guys who think this is all an elaborate scam...

So is anyone going to take me up on my offer for a wager, or are you guys who think this is all an elaborate scam going to just keep running your mouths and circle jerking each other to see who can come up with the most crack-pot theory out there?  I mean someone should be willing to separate this fool from his money, right?  

semifreeguy wrote:

Dudes who wear turtlenecks are the ones that circle jerk. 

Roller DeCoaster wrote:

And you know this how?

ns503 wrote:

An awful lot of people in here with absolutely no skin in the game that are acting like they are all in on something. Sheesh, what...

An awful lot of people in here with absolutely no skin in the game that are acting like they are all in on something.

Sheesh, what a bunch.

#434 wrote:

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. ...

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. 

The Mugen bike btw couldn’t compete with the Stark. It’s battery is smaller and I heard the power is around 25-30 HP (I can‘t remember which Podcast I heard that number). But the biggest problem, which also plagues a lot of car manufacturers, is that they use an ICE platform and shoehorn an electric drivetrain into it. That‘s a rolling compromise from the get-go. Look at the s..t BMW is producing for example… embarrassing!

So starting with a fresh approach, a blank sheet of paper and an open mind needs commitment and courage. Something board members of big cooperations lack. All they want is good numbers, so they sell what sells good st the moment and want to cut R&D costs. Or why do you think Mugen and not HRC did this project?

Muzzle wrote:

What crap from BMW are you referring to?  I'm curious.

#434 wrote:

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. ...

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. 

The Mugen bike btw couldn’t compete with the Stark. It’s battery is smaller and I heard the power is around 25-30 HP (I can‘t remember which Podcast I heard that number). But the biggest problem, which also plagues a lot of car manufacturers, is that they use an ICE platform and shoehorn an electric drivetrain into it. That‘s a rolling compromise from the get-go. Look at the s..t BMW is producing for example… embarrassing!

So starting with a fresh approach, a blank sheet of paper and an open mind needs commitment and courage. Something board members of big cooperations lack. All they want is good numbers, so they sell what sells good st the moment and want to cut R&D costs. Or why do you think Mugen and not HRC did this project?

#434 wrote:

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. ...

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. 

The Mugen bike btw couldn’t compete with the Stark. It’s battery is smaller and I heard the power is around 25-30 HP (I can‘t remember which Podcast I heard that number). But the biggest problem, which also plagues a lot of car manufacturers, is that they use an ICE platform and shoehorn an electric drivetrain into it. That‘s a rolling compromise from the get-go. Look at the s..t BMW is producing for example… embarrassing!

So starting with a fresh approach, a blank sheet of paper and an open mind needs commitment and courage. Something board members of big cooperations lack. All they want is good numbers, so they sell what sells good st the moment and want to cut R&D costs. Or why do you think Mugen and not HRC did this project?

Goldmember wrote:

The bike was a Honda, not a Mugen. It's clearly branded. It was a cheap feasibility study, not a production design prototype.  Everything that Stark has...

The bike was a Honda, not a Mugen. It's clearly branded. It was a cheap feasibility study, not a production design prototype. 

Everything that Stark has available technology wise, and more, was available to Honda/Mugen and to everyone else. The battery configuration options with Li-ion have not really changed in more than 30 years and the motor design- permanent magnet rotor- dates back to 1840: Origin of the Electric Motor | IEEE Journals & Magazine | IEEE Xplore, with good rare earth versions readily available commercially. The idea that Stark, or anyone else has to do a groundbreaking design exercise is nonsense. There is good computer design software that allows virtual electric machines to be built and tested, if indeed a bespoke unit is needed.

Honda and all the other makers who have investigated proper high performance E MX bikes have not brought them to production for a reason. It's the price/weight/range/power equation every time. For the hypothetical Stark with the 6 kWh battery and 45kW, (60 hp) motor, electrical engineering experts, and those with Alta experience, doubt very much if they can complete a 30 minute plus 2 mudder, with a sight lap, a red flag restart and the trip to the gate and back to the truck. In fact, many say that 20 minutes is probably about it. What that means is the Stark battery would have to be doubled in size. Without even getting to the large cost increase of going to a 12 kWh battery, the weight increase would be 15 lbs per kWh so 90lbs, plus the weight of the case, coolant and associated support, so an easy extra 100lbs. If you accept that, and based on Stark saying their bike weighs around 240 lbs at 6 kWh, then its weight will increase to 340 lbs in Pro MX ready trim.

 

greatlakeskind wrote:

Maybe the racing format changes to fit the new eMX class.    Maybe three 15mins motos.    What? Change something that is only for ICE.   ...

Maybe the racing format changes to fit the new eMX class. 
 

Maybe three 15mins motos. 
 

What? Change something that is only for ICE. 
 

evolve, adapt and repeat. 

greatlakeskind wrote:

Maybe the racing format changes to fit the new eMX class.    Maybe three 15mins motos.    What? Change something that is only for ICE.   ...

Maybe the racing format changes to fit the new eMX class. 
 

Maybe three 15mins motos. 
 

What? Change something that is only for ICE. 
 

evolve, adapt and repeat. 

Goldmember wrote:

That's been talked about but doesn't work either. Charge times and/or available power supply makes it hard and with hot battery swaps likely too dangerous, and...

That's been talked about but doesn't work either. Charge times and/or available power supply makes it hard and with hot battery swaps likely too dangerous, and spare batteries so expensive these hypothetical bikes face a lot of legitimacy challenges.

#434 wrote:

Yeah, that 140F/60C warm battery would pose a serious risk in the pits when it’s sitting right beside a bike with a screaming hot exhaust pipes...

Yeah, that 140F/60C warm battery would pose a serious risk in the pits when it’s sitting right beside a bike with a screaming hot exhaust pipes being filled up with race gas…

#434 wrote:

Yeah, that 140F/60C warm battery would pose a serious risk in the pits when it’s sitting right beside a bike with a screaming hot exhaust pipes...

Yeah, that 140F/60C warm battery would pose a serious risk in the pits when it’s sitting right beside a bike with a screaming hot exhaust pipes being filled up with race gas…

Goldmember wrote:

Lithium-ion batteries for performance vehicles are about 400 volts minimum and even when discharged can easily kill you. Any battery change under between-race conditions runs a...

Lithium-ion batteries for performance vehicles are about 400 volts minimum and even when discharged can easily kill you. Any battery change under between-race conditions runs a much higher risk of an accidental short causing electrocution or an unstoppable fire. If the battery has been damaged in a crash the risks are even higher.

Petrol fires are easy to extinguish with regular gear.

#434 wrote:

The same reason why a tiny start up from California turned the car industry on its head: It’s a different technology and maybe you just can’t...

The same reason why a tiny start up from California turned the car industry on its head: It’s a different technology and maybe you just can’t get the guys in R&D, that developed ICEs in frames all their life, to fiddle around with electric motors and built a completely different package. All processes in development, testing and production at e.g. KTM were made to built an engine in a frame (the rest are parts from suppliers). So maybe it’s the better approach to start with a blank sheet of paper, hire fresh staff with new ideas and an open mind. After all, there’s mot much left of a traditional dirt bike in a Varg. 

Stark, IMO, hired the right people and bought great engineering services (motor/electronics from Croatia and had help with frame geometry from this MotoGP frame god) and they seemed to be well funded. So I ask you why it’s so unrealistic that they could pull it off?

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t really answer your question: they reason why Japan and Austria haven’t really tried is a) they know how to built normal dirt bikes and make money with it. So why would they change that? b) they thought there was no demand until an outsider showed them that there actually is. 

I‘m sure they all have task force working at the moment on how a electric dirt bike from them will look like and how they can stop Stark from competing against them. 

Goldmember wrote:

I think it's fair to say that talking about Tesla with runs on the board, and Stark, who have supplied exactly zero bikes, is a bit...

I think it's fair to say that talking about Tesla with runs on the board, and Stark, who have supplied exactly zero bikes, is a bit of a stretch.

Honda/Mugen have shown a MX bike prototype in 2019 based on the CRF250R. Given that building the chassis and running gear for an EV is easy for an existing manufacturer and Honda's battery provider, Maxell, can make anything they want, this bike has never been productionised. There was a lot of consumer interest in it too. Mugen, Honda's offshoot special projects subsidiary has enormous E race bike experience, they've won the E bike category here, there and everywhere including the Isle of Man. They are far more familiar with the nitty gritty of E than Stark. So what is holding them back? It's obviously not tech resources, funding, facilities or marketing consumer demand. 

#434 wrote:

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. ...

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. 

The Mugen bike btw couldn’t compete with the Stark. It’s battery is smaller and I heard the power is around 25-30 HP (I can‘t remember which Podcast I heard that number). But the biggest problem, which also plagues a lot of car manufacturers, is that they use an ICE platform and shoehorn an electric drivetrain into it. That‘s a rolling compromise from the get-go. Look at the s..t BMW is producing for example… embarrassing!

So starting with a fresh approach, a blank sheet of paper and an open mind needs commitment and courage. Something board members of big cooperations lack. All they want is good numbers, so they sell what sells good st the moment and want to cut R&D costs. Or why do you think Mugen and not HRC did this project?

JM485 wrote:

Uh, no, I'd be an idiot to take that bet because they're not claiming that 10% of those orders will be delivered by that date, nor...

Uh, no, I'd be an idiot to take that bet because they're not claiming that 10% of those orders will be delivered by that date, nor will they be.  You've been saying from the beginning that this is all a sham and that they will never deliver a bike, so I laid out the terms of a bet based on that sentiment.  Don't try to back track on what you've said, either take my terms or stfu about something you clearly know nothing about.  If you're willing to take my terms I'll gladly put up $1k as a wager, if you're not then pipe down on the BS.  

Goldmember wrote:

Ok, well when are they claiming bikes will be delivered? We'll work something with that date. As I said one other dude bet me they were...

Ok, well when are they claiming bikes will be delivered? We'll work something with that date.

As I said one other dude bet me they were going to be riding one today 30/03/2023 on the strength of Stark's say so and several times delayed dates. 

Forget Bryan. I think he is shilling for them now, he was duchessed, signed a NDA and an embargo no doubt, and didn't get a bike.

JM485 wrote:

Uh, no, I'd be an idiot to take that bet because they're not claiming that 10% of those orders will be delivered by that date, nor...

Uh, no, I'd be an idiot to take that bet because they're not claiming that 10% of those orders will be delivered by that date, nor will they be.  You've been saying from the beginning that this is all a sham and that they will never deliver a bike, so I laid out the terms of a bet based on that sentiment.  Don't try to back track on what you've said, either take my terms or stfu about something you clearly know nothing about.  If you're willing to take my terms I'll gladly put up $1k as a wager, if you're not then pipe down on the BS.  

Goldmember wrote:

Ok, well when are they claiming bikes will be delivered? We'll work something with that date. As I said one other dude bet me they were...

Ok, well when are they claiming bikes will be delivered? We'll work something with that date.

As I said one other dude bet me they were going to be riding one today 30/03/2023 on the strength of Stark's say so and several times delayed dates. 

Forget Bryan. I think he is shilling for them now, he was duchessed, signed a NDA and an embargo no doubt, and didn't get a bike.

JM485 wrote:

Dude you're a lost cause, take the damn tin foil hat off and go get some sunlight.  No matter what I or anyone else says you're...

Dude you're a lost cause, take the damn tin foil hat off and go get some sunlight.  No matter what I or anyone else says you're going to have some elaborate crackpot theory about why they're compromised, this is all a conspiracy, and the earth is flat.  It's not a healthy way to live mentally.  If you're going to troll at least make is somewhat funny and fun, this is just getting sad to read.     

#434 wrote:

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. ...

No, I didn’t compare Stark to Tesla. I used Tesla as sn example, that potentially disruptive technology does, in most cases, not come from established manufacturers. 

The Mugen bike btw couldn’t compete with the Stark. It’s battery is smaller and I heard the power is around 25-30 HP (I can‘t remember which Podcast I heard that number). But the biggest problem, which also plagues a lot of car manufacturers, is that they use an ICE platform and shoehorn an electric drivetrain into it. That‘s a rolling compromise from the get-go. Look at the s..t BMW is producing for example… embarrassing!

So starting with a fresh approach, a blank sheet of paper and an open mind needs commitment and courage. Something board members of big cooperations lack. All they want is good numbers, so they sell what sells good st the moment and want to cut R&D costs. Or why do you think Mugen and not HRC did this project?

Muzzle wrote:

What crap from BMW are you referring to?  I'm curious.

#434 wrote:

  Here you go! I highly recommended this YouTube channel if you’re interested in cars and aerodynamics. It got some great historical videos on technical topics...

 

Here you go! I highly recommended this YouTube channel if you’re interested in cars and aerodynamics. It got some great historical videos on technical topics too. 

Natester551v wrote:

Goldmember may be a bit argumentative, but he does raise some questions that (to my knowledge) have yet to be answered.  Namely how Stark can back...

Goldmember may be a bit argumentative, but he does raise some questions that (to my knowledge) have yet to be answered.  Namely how Stark can back up their battery longevity claims given the weight, size, and power density parameters (and technology) surrounding their Varg.  I am super skeptical that you could get through a single pro-level moto in sand or loam on one...

The bike is undoubtedly cool, but the fact that there are none in the wild, and no truly independent assessments of their package does raise questions.  Any 250 or 450 shootout days with the magazines feature a lot of mfg support, but those same magazines also have test bikes for months (or entire years).  I totally agree with Stark not wanting to release the bike until it's ready - only one opportunity for initial impressions.  

I have one on order, and I'm planning to take delivery regardless of all of that (just because the bike is cool), but I will definitely be super cautious on my offroad loops to figure out exactly how far I can go.  Some of the places I ride would be virtually impossible to get an electric motorcycle out of w/o a helicopter...can't just go get gas and hike back....

Muzzle wrote:

What crap from BMW are you referring to?  I'm curious.

#434 wrote:

  Here you go! I highly recommended this YouTube channel if you’re interested in cars and aerodynamics. It got some great historical videos on technical topics...

 

Here you go! I highly recommended this YouTube channel if you’re interested in cars and aerodynamics. It got some great historical videos on technical topics too. 

tek14 wrote:

That was pretty crap take about car without any real info. Munro live youtube has some real info if you are interested how E-car development is...

That was pretty crap take about car without any real info. Munro live youtube has some real info if you are interested how E-car development is going with different companies. 

Natester551v wrote:

Goldmember may be a bit argumentative, but he does raise some questions that (to my knowledge) have yet to be answered.  Namely how Stark can back...

Goldmember may be a bit argumentative, but he does raise some questions that (to my knowledge) have yet to be answered.  Namely how Stark can back up their battery longevity claims given the weight, size, and power density parameters (and technology) surrounding their Varg.  I am super skeptical that you could get through a single pro-level moto in sand or loam on one...

The bike is undoubtedly cool, but the fact that there are none in the wild, and no truly independent assessments of their package does raise questions.  Any 250 or 450 shootout days with the magazines feature a lot of mfg support, but those same magazines also have test bikes for months (or entire years).  I totally agree with Stark not wanting to release the bike until it's ready - only one opportunity for initial impressions.  

I have one on order, and I'm planning to take delivery regardless of all of that (just because the bike is cool), but I will definitely be super cautious on my offroad loops to figure out exactly how far I can go.  Some of the places I ride would be virtually impossible to get an electric motorcycle out of w/o a helicopter...can't just go get gas and hike back....

JM485 wrote:

I can speak to that a little bit.  The Alta had a battery capacity of about 5kWh, while the Stark has over 6.  While that doesn’t...

I can speak to that a little bit.  The Alta had a battery capacity of about 5kWh, while the Stark has over 6.  While that doesn’t sound like a massive difference, that also doesn’t tell the whole story because energy storage is only part of the equation.  Alta’s controller system wasn’t really all that efficient, a lot of advancements have been made since the MXR was released so I do actually think it’s possible that the Stark could last for a 30min moto.  This remains to be seen, but in theory it actually could happen if their motor and controller operate at a higher efficiency.  From what I’ve been told by Alta owners trail riding takes significantly less battery power, so I don’t think getting a couple hours of trail riding time out of the Stark is out of the question either.

Natester551v wrote:

Good to know!  I'm excited to get it out to test...I don't think mine shows up until December at the earliest, so I guess I have...

Good to know!  I'm excited to get it out to test...I don't think mine shows up until December at the earliest, so I guess I have the advantage of other user feedback.

I'm super interested about battery life, but perhaps not as much as some other potential buyers since I'm 100% offroad.  That's obviously a double-edged sword in that I don't have to complete a 30-minute moto WFO, but the consequence of getting stranded  with a dead battery is much more severe.  

Natester551v wrote:

Goldmember may be a bit argumentative, but he does raise some questions that (to my knowledge) have yet to be answered.  Namely how Stark can back...

Goldmember may be a bit argumentative, but he does raise some questions that (to my knowledge) have yet to be answered.  Namely how Stark can back up their battery longevity claims given the weight, size, and power density parameters (and technology) surrounding their Varg.  I am super skeptical that you could get through a single pro-level moto in sand or loam on one...

The bike is undoubtedly cool, but the fact that there are none in the wild, and no truly independent assessments of their package does raise questions.  Any 250 or 450 shootout days with the magazines feature a lot of mfg support, but those same magazines also have test bikes for months (or entire years).  I totally agree with Stark not wanting to release the bike until it's ready - only one opportunity for initial impressions.  

I have one on order, and I'm planning to take delivery regardless of all of that (just because the bike is cool), but I will definitely be super cautious on my offroad loops to figure out exactly how far I can go.  Some of the places I ride would be virtually impossible to get an electric motorcycle out of w/o a helicopter...can't just go get gas and hike back....

JM485 wrote:

I can speak to that a little bit.  The Alta had a battery capacity of about 5kWh, while the Stark has over 6.  While that doesn’t...

I can speak to that a little bit.  The Alta had a battery capacity of about 5kWh, while the Stark has over 6.  While that doesn’t sound like a massive difference, that also doesn’t tell the whole story because energy storage is only part of the equation.  Alta’s controller system wasn’t really all that efficient, a lot of advancements have been made since the MXR was released so I do actually think it’s possible that the Stark could last for a 30min moto.  This remains to be seen, but in theory it actually could happen if their motor and controller operate at a higher efficiency.  From what I’ve been told by Alta owners trail riding takes significantly less battery power, so I don’t think getting a couple hours of trail riding time out of the Stark is out of the question either.