Suzuki already has all the pieces

Pop Shmoke
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Edited Date/Time 3/16/2023 6:48pm

Seeing the pics of the new kx450 at the gp’s with a new center port exhaust got me thinking.
 

This is the direction all of the mfg’s are going lately to squeeze everything they can out of these engines. So now in order for a bike to be up to date it needs to have this. Suzuki already went in the direction of building an aluminum frame made for a center port exhaust years ago, before even honda did. The only thing is that they only did it for the 250. For some reason even though they updated the 450 they decided to keep the old layout there. 
 

We all know suzuki is all about saving money on r&d right now. Well since suzuki already has a new frame built this way they could use it as the basis to update the 450 to modern standards without having to design a whole new frame from scratch. Yamaha shared lots of parts between the 450 and 250 including the frame and it worked great. The new honda 450 and 250 both use the same frame as well. Its a smart decision to only have to create 1 frame to use on multiple different bikes.
 

Besides this they already make the rmx450z as well which is essentially a de-tuned rmz that has electric start. Suzuki could use their 250 frame and the bottom end from the rmx450 and release an updated rmz450 model with electric start and a centerport exhaust. All they would have to really do is redesign the head.

 

By reusing lots of parts and tooling it wouldnt be such a huge expense to get a much improved product. Since they would have to redesign the head that would be the time to add a downdraft intake as well. A 2024 rmz450 with a center port exhaust and electric start would be a pretty big update and it wouldnt come with as much cost as it would to design all that stuff from scratch. Also in the long run using the same frame for both bikes moving forward is a smart idea as well. Does anyone think we could see suzuki do something like this in the near future? With Roczen winning now would be the perfect time to take advantage and release a much updated product with relatively minimal sunk costs. Why would they not? 

 

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TeamGreen
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3/16/2023 6:47pm

There’s plenty of truth in there…

It’s simply gonna come down to Suzuki’s dedication and willingness to invest in this recent success…or not. 

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1
3/16/2023 6:54pm

They don’t have the funds.  I don’t think all those Suzuki Samurais they sold back in ‘94 are gonna fund a new bike. 

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23
onefiveight
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3/16/2023 7:06pm

The solution here is simple, bring back the samurai!

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Bruce372
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3/16/2023 7:10pm

The solution here is simple, bring back the samurai!

Is that the suzuki fall over? It would be great if they brought them back in the days where everything shows up on social media!!!

The Shop

mxcrzy
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3/16/2023 7:20pm

That'd make an exceptional 24 model bike maybe 25 while they do a new lighter engine with the raised gearbox thats becoming more popular.

TeamGreen
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3/16/2023 7:25pm Edited Date/Time 3/17/2023 8:46am

Pop Smoke = Get usTF out of here and get an A10 in here to KILL everything-else…

NOW! 

😂

Been there, Been scaredAF. 

W/Mad F’ing Respect,

Signed,

Just another pussy-assed advisor. 

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1
3/16/2023 7:36pm

They don’t have the funds.  I don’t think all those Suzuki Samurais they sold back in ‘94 are gonna fund a new bike. 

I guess the nearly 3 million vehicles they sold last year don’t count? Or the $13 billion in gross sales? 
 

suzuki vehicles are still very popular outside of the US. Literally sold 2.76million vehicles in 2021.. 

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1
3/16/2023 7:59pm

They don’t have the funds.  I don’t think all those Suzuki Samurais they sold back in ‘94 are gonna fund a new bike. 

Their funds are fine, they sell more scooters world wide than any other brand, they don’t care about motorcycle. 

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3
burn1986
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3/16/2023 8:11pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2023 8:33pm
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Seeing the pics of the new kx450 at the gp’s with a new center port exhaust got me thinking.   This is the direction all of...

Seeing the pics of the new kx450 at the gp’s with a new center port exhaust got me thinking.
 

This is the direction all of the mfg’s are going lately to squeeze everything they can out of these engines. So now in order for a bike to be up to date it needs to have this. Suzuki already went in the direction of building an aluminum frame made for a center port exhaust years ago, before even honda did. The only thing is that they only did it for the 250. For some reason even though they updated the 450 they decided to keep the old layout there. 
 

We all know suzuki is all about saving money on r&d right now. Well since suzuki already has a new frame built this way they could use it as the basis to update the 450 to modern standards without having to design a whole new frame from scratch. Yamaha shared lots of parts between the 450 and 250 including the frame and it worked great. The new honda 450 and 250 both use the same frame as well. Its a smart decision to only have to create 1 frame to use on multiple different bikes.
 

Besides this they already make the rmx450z as well which is essentially a de-tuned rmz that has electric start. Suzuki could use their 250 frame and the bottom end from the rmx450 and release an updated rmz450 model with electric start and a centerport exhaust. All they would have to really do is redesign the head.

 

By reusing lots of parts and tooling it wouldnt be such a huge expense to get a much improved product. Since they would have to redesign the head that would be the time to add a downdraft intake as well. A 2024 rmz450 with a center port exhaust and electric start would be a pretty big update and it wouldnt come with as much cost as it would to design all that stuff from scratch. Also in the long run using the same frame for both bikes moving forward is a smart idea as well. Does anyone think we could see suzuki do something like this in the near future? With Roczen winning now would be the perfect time to take advantage and release a much updated product with relatively minimal sunk costs. Why would they not? 

 

As much as we want a new Zook, it just aint gonna happen. I’m sure they are aware of Kenny, but it doesn’t change their plan at all - which is to produce the lowest cost mxer without updates and eventually phase out of mx altogether.

1
3/16/2023 8:18pm

If you think they are short on cash now, just wait till they have to pay out all that championship contingencies this summer 

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Press516
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3/16/2023 8:38pm

While I love the idea, as a production bike it would then weigh 50lbs more than a KTM…

How much could be shaved just throwing tons of $$$ at it?

Moto520
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3/16/2023 8:44pm

There’s nothing like a good Suzuki.  

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Bruce372
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3/16/2023 9:22pm

Suzuki are good enough to win MotoGP, they could do anything if they wanted... just isn't part of their business model and I don't blame them.

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slotsquid
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3/16/2023 10:51pm

The solution here is simple, bring back the samurai!

Too bad there are no Suzuki car dealerships anymore... the Jimny! (I drive a Suzuki Equator) Suzuki Jimny

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slotsquid
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3/16/2023 10:53pm

...and the new 5 door. image-20230317005349-1

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TeamGreen
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3/16/2023 11:44pm

The solution here is simple, bring back the samurai!

slotsquid wrote:
Too bad there are no Suzuki car dealerships anymore... the Jimny! (I drive a Suzuki Equator)

Too bad there are no Suzuki car dealerships anymore... the Jimny! (I drive a Suzuki Equator) Suzuki Jimny

Color me Jealous 

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Peanut M&Ms
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3/17/2023 12:11am

From what I was told by current and ex-staff... when the motocross section still existed (it was a separate entity in the two wheel department until 2017) an all New frame & All new engine that even had finger follower valves was designed... but the higher ups canned it due to costs and we got the current iteration of the RMZ450

I will ask one of the test riders (if i see them on the weekend) if anything is going on over there

 

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#434
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3/17/2023 2:29am

The goal of the other Japanese manufacturers is a state of the art cylinder head for port fuel injection, which means a steep, straight and downdraft intake port and a symmetrical exhaust port. They‘ve built their bikes around it. Yami by turning the engine. Honda and Kawi by lowering the shock tower and routing the intake over it, as well as moving the frame split up in the front to creat the centre exhaust port.

The problem for Suzuki is that the intake port design reaps the most benefits, the center exhaust port is much less important. But to get the intake port you need a new cylinder head design and a very different frame (look at the new Kawi). Combined with a need for an electric start, this basically means a complete redesign to pull even with the other Japanese manufacturers.

I‘d love to see a new RMZ, but Suzuki has apparently stopped ALL high performance motorcycles development, even the development of the GSX-R. From winning the MotoGP championship to this is just sad. 

9
yak651
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3/17/2023 3:19am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2023 3:20am
slotsquid wrote:
...and the new 5 door.

...and the new 5 door. image-20230317005349-1

The 2 door one looks cool but this one is fugly!

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Spoonguy
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3/17/2023 5:45am

KTM is tiny in comparison to Suzuki, yet they invest not just in their bikes, but in the promotion of the sport through every form of pro racing. GNNCC, to AFT, to MotoGP. Suzuki doesn't do shit to promote motorcycling racing, despite the sport giving their own company so much, and the heritage they carry. If you love pro bike racing, you would never buy a Suzuki. As a company, they are a taker.

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AMetts
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3/17/2023 5:59am

Don't forget this is the same company that won a Moto GP championship in 2020 and pulled out of Moto GP all together two years later, a series that is leaps and bounds ahead of supercross as far as prestige/money to go around. One Supercross win will not change anything even though I wish it would. 

Not sure why Suzuki hasn't just leaned into being the budget bike and owning that title, their is nothing wrong with that. The industry needs something like that, you have CRF230s for $4000 then a 250f for $9000, we need something in between thats probably 95% as good for the average joe atleast. 

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Natester551v
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3/17/2023 6:18am
AMetts wrote:
Don't forget this is the same company that won a Moto GP championship in 2020 and pulled out of Moto GP all together two years later...

Don't forget this is the same company that won a Moto GP championship in 2020 and pulled out of Moto GP all together two years later, a series that is leaps and bounds ahead of supercross as far as prestige/money to go around. One Supercross win will not change anything even though I wish it would. 

Not sure why Suzuki hasn't just leaned into being the budget bike and owning that title, their is nothing wrong with that. The industry needs something like that, you have CRF230s for $4000 then a 250f for $9000, we need something in between thats probably 95% as good for the average joe atleast. 

Totally agree; they could take the approach the KTM Group has w/GasGas (a more budget-friendly bike) but even more so.  With some basic upgrades to make a slightly more competitive platform (obviously HEP has made the current one work) they could make an even bigger impact.  I'm thinking just electric start would be a game changer, as long as they can figure out a way to at least offset the weight.  As porky as the current RMZ is, it's still lighter than my old YZ426F, corners way better, has more power, EFI, et al.

Or they could do nothing, soak up the champagne from Kenny's podiums, and keep making small cars and scooters...lol

Broseph
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3/17/2023 6:28am
#434 wrote:
The goal of the other Japanese manufacturers is a state of the art cylinder head for port fuel injection, which means a steep, straight and downdraft...

The goal of the other Japanese manufacturers is a state of the art cylinder head for port fuel injection, which means a steep, straight and downdraft intake port and a symmetrical exhaust port. They‘ve built their bikes around it. Yami by turning the engine. Honda and Kawi by lowering the shock tower and routing the intake over it, as well as moving the frame split up in the front to creat the centre exhaust port.

The problem for Suzuki is that the intake port design reaps the most benefits, the center exhaust port is much less important. But to get the intake port you need a new cylinder head design and a very different frame (look at the new Kawi). Combined with a need for an electric start, this basically means a complete redesign to pull even with the other Japanese manufacturers.

I‘d love to see a new RMZ, but Suzuki has apparently stopped ALL high performance motorcycles development, even the development of the GSX-R. From winning the MotoGP championship to this is just sad. 

You know what’s interesting? Compared to the others, KTM doesn’t a downdraft intake. Yet somehow they’re still coming out on top on the dyno. 

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3/17/2023 6:29am
AMetts wrote:
Don't forget this is the same company that won a Moto GP championship in 2020 and pulled out of Moto GP all together two years later...

Don't forget this is the same company that won a Moto GP championship in 2020 and pulled out of Moto GP all together two years later, a series that is leaps and bounds ahead of supercross as far as prestige/money to go around. One Supercross win will not change anything even though I wish it would. 

Not sure why Suzuki hasn't just leaned into being the budget bike and owning that title, their is nothing wrong with that. The industry needs something like that, you have CRF230s for $4000 then a 250f for $9000, we need something in between thats probably 95% as good for the average joe atleast. 

You're right.  There is nothing wrong with having a budget motocross bike.  Suzuki needs to own it and start to market it that way.  If it's done deliberately and with purpose it can be a thing of beauty.  The way they are doing it now is disgraceful to their legacy and history.  

1
3/17/2023 6:46am
You're right.  There is nothing wrong with having a budget motocross bike.  Suzuki needs to own it and start to market it that way.  If it's...

You're right.  There is nothing wrong with having a budget motocross bike.  Suzuki needs to own it and start to market it that way.  If it's done deliberately and with purpose it can be a thing of beauty.  The way they are doing it now is disgraceful to their legacy and history.  

Didnt they do that years ago with the RS175 and RS250?  I thought it was somehting more mx like than my PE, but w/o the hyper focus of an RM.

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3/17/2023 7:09am

Just break off a tiny bit of that budget Suzuki, keep it priced right. There will be a price point where people won’t get into this shit anymore. 

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#434
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3/17/2023 7:23am
#434 wrote:
The goal of the other Japanese manufacturers is a state of the art cylinder head for port fuel injection, which means a steep, straight and downdraft...

The goal of the other Japanese manufacturers is a state of the art cylinder head for port fuel injection, which means a steep, straight and downdraft intake port and a symmetrical exhaust port. They‘ve built their bikes around it. Yami by turning the engine. Honda and Kawi by lowering the shock tower and routing the intake over it, as well as moving the frame split up in the front to creat the centre exhaust port.

The problem for Suzuki is that the intake port design reaps the most benefits, the center exhaust port is much less important. But to get the intake port you need a new cylinder head design and a very different frame (look at the new Kawi). Combined with a need for an electric start, this basically means a complete redesign to pull even with the other Japanese manufacturers.

I‘d love to see a new RMZ, but Suzuki has apparently stopped ALL high performance motorcycles development, even the development of the GSX-R. From winning the MotoGP championship to this is just sad. 

Broseph wrote:

You know what’s interesting? Compared to the others, KTM doesn’t a downdraft intake. Yet somehow they’re still coming out on top on the dyno. 

Yeah, KTM has a great package without the downdraft design. They’re injector setup seems to be the magic sauce. Some teams with Japanese bikes use it.
Doesn‘t alter the fact that a downdraft design is state of the art. Look at every other fourstroke race engine, even KTMs.

The point I wanted to make: it’s no so much the center exhaust port that’s desirable, it’s the downdraft design.

Does Suzuki need it to make a great MX: probably not.

Is everybody going into the direction bc it’s the better design: yes  

Here are KTMs MotoGP and Moto3 engines:

8052FA4A-24A9-420D-9950-1A3D07538F62

 

443AFDDC-7BAC-4A1D-B54A-F55CD2DB2D7B

 

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vet323
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Lead, SD, USA
3/17/2023 7:31am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2023 7:34am
You're right.  There is nothing wrong with having a budget motocross bike.  Suzuki needs to own it and start to market it that way.  If it's...

You're right.  There is nothing wrong with having a budget motocross bike.  Suzuki needs to own it and start to market it that way.  If it's done deliberately and with purpose it can be a thing of beauty.  The way they are doing it now is disgraceful to their legacy and history.  

Didnt they do that years ago with the RS175 and RS250?  I thought it was somehting more mx like than my PE, but w/o the hyper...

Didnt they do that years ago with the RS175 and RS250?  I thought it was somehting more mx like than my PE, but w/o the hyper focus of an RM.

The RS bikes were a step below the PE and two steps below the RM in terms of power and suspension. That aesthetic is exactly what folks in this thread are talking about.

Edit: Not this thread, the play bike thread.

3/17/2023 7:32am

The solution here is simple, bring back the samurai!

Technically they never stopped. They just stopped bringing them to the U.S. market.

image-20230317083201-1

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Pop Shmoke
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3/17/2023 7:39am

I do remember recently that suzuki split their atv/motorcycle/marine divisions into two separate companies. The atv/motorcycle division became a separate company in april 2021. The bottom of their press release stated

 

”The primary goal of this reorganization is to strengthen each business. Key objectives are to achieve greater efficiencies, speed up decision-making, and position each company for increased sales and growth in the United States”

 

So they do want more sales of motorcycles in the us. It just depends if they want to achieve that by making lower priced bikes or something else. I do think the idea of them using the same frame for all iterations of their big bikes would be a smart business move.

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