KTMs Pit Beirer "Batteries not the immediate future"

Magoofan
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1/30/2023 1:32pm
early wrote:

Sounds like a problem with the net metering laws of your state

What it means is we're all going to be screwed.....because they'll get their pound of flesh no matter what you do.

EV/ebikes.... just another carrot/stick deal.

 

1
mxpro252
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WA US
1/30/2023 1:54pm
Oh man, don't get US mountain bike purists started on emtbs. If you ever want to witness a shitshow, just hop into the emtb threads on...

Oh man, don't get US mountain bike purists started on emtbs. If you ever want to witness a shitshow, just hop into the emtb threads on any given mountain bike forum. To some Americans (especially Southern Californian Americans), you're worse than a pedophile if you ride an emtb.

 

 

2
shuggs
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1/30/2023 2:34pm

Doesn’t KTM already have an electric bike, on the market?

Wonder what they have learned from Freeride to put a pause (not a stop) on E bikes 

1/30/2023 2:44pm
Are you on NEM 2.0?  I've heard things are really getting ugly with NEM 3.0 soon. Are they taking your credit for overproduction away completely?  Or...

Are you on NEM 2.0?  I've heard things are really getting ugly with NEM 3.0 soon. Are they taking your credit for overproduction away completely?  Or, are they trying to square up with you monthly (or even daily) for your overproduction?  Meaning, that if you overproduce in the summer months, you won't be able to bank that excess power for the winter months when you need it. 

Magoofan wrote:
We're on 2.0....yeah 3.0 is a concern.   As of now, the overproduction credit isn't going away....it's just that electric rates have gone up so when we...

We're on 2.0....yeah 3.0 is a concern.  

As of now, the overproduction credit isn't going away....it's just that electric rates have gone up so when we settle up at the end of the year (True UP date)  that "credit" will be greatly diminished or gone.  

The only difference is rates is "peak" and off-peak" during the day/night....there is no difference for summer/winter.

I want to install batteries at some point to tell the electric company to f**K off.    Waiting for that technology to mature and come down. 

I haven't been paying attention because I'm on 1.0, but yes it sounds like any overproduction credits will be worth less than they are now which is pennies on the dollar.  I oversized my solar system to plan for future use, so in my first year of production I was really efficient (traveled a lot too) so I had about $800 worth of overproduction a month before the true up date.  Or so I thought.  Luckily I called Edison to inquire, because when I asked how I would be getting my $800 worth of credit they informed me it was going to be more like $60.  After learning that potential screw job, I told the the power company all you guys are doing is encouraging inefficiency and waste because no way in hell I'm going to sell you my excess for $60 and let you profit $740 by giving it to my neighbor....so I turned on everything and burned the shit up and gave them nothing.

I told them it's now a lose-lose situation instead of a win-win.  If they paid me wholesale rates and split it with me 50% then okay, but no one is going to give them $800 worth of electricity for $60.

4

The Shop

Magoofan
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1/30/2023 3:47pm
I haven't been paying attention because I'm on 1.0, but yes it sounds like any overproduction credits will be worth less than they are now which...

I haven't been paying attention because I'm on 1.0, but yes it sounds like any overproduction credits will be worth less than they are now which is pennies on the dollar.  I oversized my solar system to plan for future use, so in my first year of production I was really efficient (traveled a lot too) so I had about $800 worth of overproduction a month before the true up date.  Or so I thought.  Luckily I called Edison to inquire, because when I asked how I would be getting my $800 worth of credit they informed me it was going to be more like $60.  After learning that potential screw job, I told the the power company all you guys are doing is encouraging inefficiency and waste because no way in hell I'm going to sell you my excess for $60 and let you profit $740 by giving it to my neighbor....so I turned on everything and burned the shit up and gave them nothing.

I told them it's now a lose-lose situation instead of a win-win.  If they paid me wholesale rates and split it with me 50% then okay, but no one is going to give them $800 worth of electricity for $60.

We oversized too for future planning...but not that much.   $800 a month is WAY over!  lol     I believe if you're on NEM 1.0 you had your installation prior to 11/2017.   NEM 2.0 if after....ours was installed in 2018. 

The ROI will be about 6 years for us.....  it's been nice not having to pay for any electricity for the last 5 years.      

 

Like everything else, they're going to f**k us.

 

2
1/30/2023 3:53pm
I haven't been paying attention because I'm on 1.0, but yes it sounds like any overproduction credits will be worth less than they are now which...

I haven't been paying attention because I'm on 1.0, but yes it sounds like any overproduction credits will be worth less than they are now which is pennies on the dollar.  I oversized my solar system to plan for future use, so in my first year of production I was really efficient (traveled a lot too) so I had about $800 worth of overproduction a month before the true up date.  Or so I thought.  Luckily I called Edison to inquire, because when I asked how I would be getting my $800 worth of credit they informed me it was going to be more like $60.  After learning that potential screw job, I told the the power company all you guys are doing is encouraging inefficiency and waste because no way in hell I'm going to sell you my excess for $60 and let you profit $740 by giving it to my neighbor....so I turned on everything and burned the shit up and gave them nothing.

I told them it's now a lose-lose situation instead of a win-win.  If they paid me wholesale rates and split it with me 50% then okay, but no one is going to give them $800 worth of electricity for $60.

Magoofan wrote:
We oversized too for future planning...but not that much.   $800 a month is WAY over!  lol     I believe if you're on NEM 1.0 you had...

We oversized too for future planning...but not that much.   $800 a month is WAY over!  lol     I believe if you're on NEM 1.0 you had your installation prior to 11/2017.   NEM 2.0 if after....ours was installed in 2018. 

The ROI will be about 6 years for us.....  it's been nice not having to pay for any electricity for the last 5 years.      

 

Like everything else, they're going to f**k us.

 

I wish it was $800 per month...it was $800 for the year.  Yes, I squeaked in before November 2017.  Like your system, mine pays itself off next year.

1
FreshTopEnd
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1/30/2023 5:03pm
Larry450 wrote:
I dunno. Maybe bitching about emtbs is a thing in US. I have had zero problems. I even raced in same class as regular bikes. It...

I dunno. Maybe bitching about emtbs is a thing in US. I have had zero problems.

I even raced in same class as regular bikes. It was DH race so no pedaling was required.

Oh man, don't get US mountain bike purists started on emtbs. If you ever want to witness a shitshow, just hop into the emtb threads on...

Oh man, don't get US mountain bike purists started on emtbs. If you ever want to witness a shitshow, just hop into the emtb threads on any given mountain bike forum. To some Americans (especially Southern Californian Americans), you're worse than a pedophile if you ride an emtb.

And the folks with influence, hikers and equestrian, want to shut them both down on public trails.  

4
TeamGreen
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1/30/2023 5:39pm
TeamGreen wrote:
To be fair…it takes “energy” to produce Hydrogen, right? (Intended only to clarify) I can see reasonable growth/expansion of hydrogen fuel availability (we’ve already seen that)...

To be fair…it takes “energy” to produce Hydrogen, right? (Intended only to clarify)

I can see reasonable growth/expansion of hydrogen fuel availability (we’ve already seen that) and can also see vast improvements in production technology as they lean into electrolytic and direct solar processes…and away from thermochemical. You’d think they’d really lean into the future potential bio-mass-conversion; but, hey…why look into making something from sources like waste-water, right? Laughing

Sometimes I smh when I look at the technology/technologies we pursue versus the ones we should for our own long-term benefit. 

Personally, I like pursuing all these technologies and seeing their benefits to the ongoing global energy supply insanity. 

Then again, y’all might jus’ wanna ignore me…I’m one of those guys that thinks Nuke Energy is the way to go. Look at Palo Verde in Arizona as an example. 

#434 wrote:
Yep, you usually split water or methan to get pure hydrogen, which takes a lot of energy. In the video, wind or solar powered electrolysis is...

Yep, you usually split water or methan to get pure hydrogen, which takes a lot of energy. In the video, wind or solar powered electrolysis is among the most expensive ways to go. AND hydrogen is a nightmare to compress and store. 

Actually, running a nuclear plant and producing hydrogen, ammonia or methanol when there’s excess energy would is a good idea. 

Nuclear power is probably the best idea to provide cheap power to masses of people to charge their cars.    If it can help with hydrogen...

Nuclear power is probably the best idea to provide cheap power to masses of people to charge their cars. 
 

If it can help with hydrogen, even better. 

Wait-a-tick?!

Do I have some fellow physics geeks ‘round h’yar? Laughing

1
FreshTopEnd
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1/30/2023 5:50pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Wait-a-tick?! Do I have some fellow physics geeks ‘round h’yar? 

Wait-a-tick?!

Do I have some fellow physics geeks ‘round h’yar? Laughing

Geek, yes, literacy beyond concepts not so much.  Pop - an old school slide rule math savant, engineered refineries and processes for Standard Oil/Chevron - must have created a generation skipping trust for his math genes, because they skipped me and went to my kids.  

1
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1/30/2023 7:42pm

And the folks with influence, hikers and equestrian, want to shut them both down on public trails.  

And their lawyers of course....

#434
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2/1/2023 2:49am
HS_Hasbeen wrote:
Sounds like KTM has come to the same conclusion as Triumph.  Triumph spent years working on an E Street Bike and pretty much said, "the technology...

Sounds like KTM has come to the same conclusion as Triumph.  Triumph spent years working on an E Street Bike and pretty much said, "the technology isn't there yet" to give customers what they want at the price they are willing to pay.

I just watched the video. Why would you say the technology is not there yet? They were happy with the performance and range, it’s just more expensive at the moment compared to its ICE variant. 

Compared to a Street Triple it was 10% heavier, had the same power and a range of 100 miles. 

They did the clever thing: Develop a technology demonstrator, but not invest in a production line yet. When the market demands electric bikes, they have the technology ready and something to show to investors. 

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3
Brent
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2/1/2023 1:42pm
I'm in CA and I have a couple friends who have recently bought their first electric vehicle.   I have solar so they both asked me...

I'm in CA and I have a couple friends who have recently bought their first electric vehicle.   I have solar so they both asked me "What is your electricity bill with Solar?"

Point being, the cost of electricity is skyrocketing in CA.  If this continues and the price of gas keeps falling, it will soon be equivalent or even cheaper to drive an ICE car compared to an electric vehicle.  If you talk to my friends, it's almost like they just replaced their gas bill with an electric bill and have little cost savings, for now.

When electricity was cheap, everyone thought they were getting a free lunch when buying an electric car....not so much anymore.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I have solar and a Tesla in Southern CA.

I can charge the Tesla off peak and it's free - In fact, we sell so much power back to the utility that they owe us over 800.00 in credits as of last billing.  

I paid a little more and got the largest solar system that would fit on my roof. 17.5KW, and it's paying off for sure...

2
Magoofan
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2/1/2023 1:52pm
Brent wrote:
I have solar and a Tesla in Southern CA. I can charge the Tesla off peak and it's free - In fact, we sell so much...

I have solar and a Tesla in Southern CA.

I can charge the Tesla off peak and it's free - In fact, we sell so much power back to the utility that they owe us over 800.00 in credits as of last billing.  

I paid a little more and got the largest solar system that would fit on my roof. 17.5KW, and it's paying off for sure...

Yes...we "sell" to them on our production too.    It's a pittance to what they charge you for using their energy.    

...and what they are paying you will drop as rates go up.   You will be protected for a while with a huge system.   As mentioned earlier, we oversized ours for "future proofing"....but as it turns out that won't be enough for very long.  

 

RaceFace232
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2/1/2023 1:55pm
#434 wrote:

I‘d say the same if I had nothing in the development pipeline for the near future. 

8500rpm wrote:
Yeah, same as some Japanese brands and electric cars. Honda, Toyota and many are behind and generally they are a bit sceptical about electric cars. Now...

Yeah, same as some Japanese brands and electric cars. Honda, Toyota and many are behind and generally they are a bit sceptical about electric cars. Now, we don't know if they are right or if they are the first losers. We will know 2035 maybe.

#434 wrote:
I think electric cars will only be the future if the respective government wants them to succeed and provides the infrastructure. But in moto that’s not...

I think electric cars will only be the future if the respective government wants them to succeed and provides the infrastructure.

But in moto that’s not an issue. Most important thing is performance and secondly practicability. If Stark delivers close to what they promise (about 75% of the promised power and range and 10 lbs more weight), this thing is going to be a smash hit, because normally skilled riders will be much faster on them, with less mistakes and fatigue (which is also safer) and will spend way less time in garage doing maintenance.

And think about the numbers that have been ordered. The big manufacturers are worried, but I don’t know if they’re worried enough to put some serious money into development. Doesn’t look like it at the moment. 

You…..how much faster will the average guy go on the Stark over similar gas bikes?  You seem to think it will be 5-10 seconds a lap on a short Mx track.  Actually the way you speak you might think it’s even a more absurd number.  I think a big competitor will have a bike out before  Stark gets going and they’ll be smooshed before the next model gets developed.  They should have done $1,000 deposits to weed out the riff raft.  Seems bizarre they relocated to a new factory and upgraded all kinds of equipment based on demand from $100 orders……. 

2
2/1/2023 3:20pm
I'm in CA and I have a couple friends who have recently bought their first electric vehicle.   I have solar so they both asked me...

I'm in CA and I have a couple friends who have recently bought their first electric vehicle.   I have solar so they both asked me "What is your electricity bill with Solar?"

Point being, the cost of electricity is skyrocketing in CA.  If this continues and the price of gas keeps falling, it will soon be equivalent or even cheaper to drive an ICE car compared to an electric vehicle.  If you talk to my friends, it's almost like they just replaced their gas bill with an electric bill and have little cost savings, for now.

When electricity was cheap, everyone thought they were getting a free lunch when buying an electric car....not so much anymore.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Brent wrote:
I have solar and a Tesla in Southern CA. I can charge the Tesla off peak and it's free - In fact, we sell so much...

I have solar and a Tesla in Southern CA.

I can charge the Tesla off peak and it's free - In fact, we sell so much power back to the utility that they owe us over 800.00 in credits as of last billing.  

I paid a little more and got the largest solar system that would fit on my roof. 17.5KW, and it's paying off for sure...

Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are getting back.  Make sure to check with them a month or two before your true up date, and if they tell you that you'll only be getting $60-$80 (or even less now) then you can turn on everything and burn it all up.  Unless of course you want to let them profit $750 by taking your excess power and selling it to your neighbors.

zehn
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Anchorage, AK US
2/1/2023 3:39pm
Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are...

Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are getting back.  Make sure to check with them a month or two before your true up date, and if they tell you that you'll only be getting $60-$80 (or even less now) then you can turn on everything and burn it all up.  Unless of course you want to let them profit $750 by taking your excess power and selling it to your neighbors.

Is there a contract rate for how they value that power at the true up date?

Brent
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2/1/2023 3:53pm
Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are...

Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are getting back.  Make sure to check with them a month or two before your true up date, and if they tell you that you'll only be getting $60-$80 (or even less now) then you can turn on everything and burn it all up.  Unless of course you want to let them profit $750 by taking your excess power and selling it to your neighbors.

Yeah I got warned about the true billing thing - I don't totally understand it yet but I guess it comes up every year. I need to look into the details.

My first year with the system is up in June, so prior to that I plan on running the A/C and pool pumps 24/7 to eat up the "credit"

I really never expected to get money back from SCE anyway, I'm just happy I don't pay the utility 950.00 a month during summer like I used to, not to mention the car re-charge cost is covered...

1
2/1/2023 4:02pm
Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are...

Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are getting back.  Make sure to check with them a month or two before your true up date, and if they tell you that you'll only be getting $60-$80 (or even less now) then you can turn on everything and burn it all up.  Unless of course you want to let them profit $750 by taking your excess power and selling it to your neighbors.

Brent wrote:
Yeah I got warned about the true billing thing - I don't totally understand it yet but I guess it comes up every year. I need...

Yeah I got warned about the true billing thing - I don't totally understand it yet but I guess it comes up every year. I need to look into the details.

My first year with the system is up in June, so prior to that I plan on running the A/C and pool pumps 24/7 to eat up the "credit"

I really never expected to get money back from SCE anyway, I'm just happy I don't pay the utility 950.00 a month during summer like I used to, not to mention the car re-charge cost is covered...

You have the right idea to burn it all up because whatever they are willing to give you for it is pennies on the dollar.  This is unfortunate because the power companies are encouraging waste and inefficiency as I have zero motivation to turn the lights off.  If they paid me a decent rate for my power I would be much more efficient but they are super greedy and want to take huge profits from the solar system I paid for.

1
2/1/2023 4:16pm
Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are...

Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are getting back.  Make sure to check with them a month or two before your true up date, and if they tell you that you'll only be getting $60-$80 (or even less now) then you can turn on everything and burn it all up.  Unless of course you want to let them profit $750 by taking your excess power and selling it to your neighbors.

zehn wrote:

Is there a contract rate for how they value that power at the true up date?

Yes there is but it's pennies on the dollar and I don't even know what mine is because I don't bother trying to conserve anymore after I learned what SCE wanted to pay me for my first year's excess power I generated.  Now every year I just make sure to burn all my excess before the true up date so I can break even.   

Even then, for someone who's solar system covers 100% of their needs, they still want to charge approximately $15/month for a "connection fee" to be tied into the grid.  

Dave v3.0
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Ozark, AL US
2/1/2023 6:51pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
I have yet to see any of the Alta owners mention it, so I don't think it'll be yearly.   Anyway, for motorsports I think synthetic fuels...

I have yet to see any of the Alta owners mention it, so I don't think it'll be yearly.  

Anyway, for motorsports I think synthetic fuels will be the future. F1 isn't going electric anytime soon because Formula E has the exclusive rights to be the only electric open wheel series until 2039. They also have the exclusive right for hydrogen that expires in the same year. After that they'll have the option to sign an extension with the FIA to continue having that exclusivity.

If there's no push to have the biggest motorsport series in the world go electric, I think motorcycle are safe for a while longer. 

I think ICE and electric can coexist. We don't need to get rid of one in preference of the other. There's no reason to have them compete against one another. 

Let them be seperate and grow the sport of motorcycling that way. Different series, more jobs, different corporate sponsors, etc. 

Honestly, it's not a bad thing.

Graybeard wrote:
Love your point about both coexisting, Mav. Well put. Also would love to hear from Bryan about batteries for his Alta, as he seems to ride...

Love your point about both coexisting, Mav. Well put. Also would love to hear from Bryan about batteries for his Alta, as he seems to ride / race it quite a bit. 
 

As for the European riding areas, e-bikes aren’t going to change your situation, sorry. Excuses to close riding areas has ranged from environmental to noise, next will be dust and erosion. It’s being driven by people who don’t like the sport you do, and thus don’t want it to exist for anyone. Sad, but that’s what you are up against. 
 

 

#434 wrote:
Says the Texan.. It‘s not true. Tracks close bc neighbors complain about noise. That’s it. There’s no agenda of the green party or so to ban...

Says the Texan..

It‘s not true. Tracks close bc neighbors complain about noise. That’s it. There’s no agenda of the green party or so to ban moto. 

This has been going on since the 1960's in the U.S.  Across the U.S.

It's not just about the noise.  It's about control.  Always has been and always will be.  Noise is a convenient excuse.

Noise didn't cause the Sierra Club to have the government close down the desert.

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  Europeans should be the first to say this.

4
Magoofan
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2/1/2023 8:09pm Edited Date/Time 2/1/2023 8:11pm
Dave v3.0 wrote:
This has been going on since the 1960's in the U.S.  Across the U.S. It's not just about the noise.  It's about control.  Always has been...

This has been going on since the 1960's in the U.S.  Across the U.S.

It's not just about the noise.  It's about control.  Always has been and always will be.  Noise is a convenient excuse.

Noise didn't cause the Sierra Club to have the government close down the desert.

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  Europeans should be the first to say this.

Spot on.     You'd think Euro's would know better.    

 

Found this today....   speaking of history....1979

image-20230201200923-1

 

1
wisey
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2/1/2023 8:26pm
Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are...

Brent, be very careful if you are with SCE.  Even if SDG&E, you will most likely get $60-80 for your $800 credit you think you are getting back.  Make sure to check with them a month or two before your true up date, and if they tell you that you'll only be getting $60-$80 (or even less now) then you can turn on everything and burn it all up.  Unless of course you want to let them profit $750 by taking your excess power and selling it to your neighbors.

zehn wrote:

Is there a contract rate for how they value that power at the true up date?

Yes there is but it's pennies on the dollar and I don't even know what mine is because I don't bother trying to conserve anymore after...

Yes there is but it's pennies on the dollar and I don't even know what mine is because I don't bother trying to conserve anymore after I learned what SCE wanted to pay me for my first year's excess power I generated.  Now every year I just make sure to burn all my excess before the true up date so I can break even.   

Even then, for someone who's solar system covers 100% of their needs, they still want to charge approximately $15/month for a "connection fee" to be tied into the grid.  

I don’t believe they want your solar power on the grid. They claim it cost more to manage and maintain the grid. As for NEM 3.0 I believe the kicker is for every KW you install they charge $5 per month service fee on top of the standard service fee. Oh  and talk about no gas appliances. I believe gas generators are also getting the axe in California. Shit sounds fishy. 
 

#434
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DE
2/1/2023 8:54pm
Graybeard wrote:
Love your point about both coexisting, Mav. Well put. Also would love to hear from Bryan about batteries for his Alta, as he seems to ride...

Love your point about both coexisting, Mav. Well put. Also would love to hear from Bryan about batteries for his Alta, as he seems to ride / race it quite a bit. 
 

As for the European riding areas, e-bikes aren’t going to change your situation, sorry. Excuses to close riding areas has ranged from environmental to noise, next will be dust and erosion. It’s being driven by people who don’t like the sport you do, and thus don’t want it to exist for anyone. Sad, but that’s what you are up against. 
 

 

#434 wrote:
Says the Texan.. It‘s not true. Tracks close bc neighbors complain about noise. That’s it. There’s no agenda of the green party or so to ban...

Says the Texan..

It‘s not true. Tracks close bc neighbors complain about noise. That’s it. There’s no agenda of the green party or so to ban moto. 

Dave v3.0 wrote:
This has been going on since the 1960's in the U.S.  Across the U.S. It's not just about the noise.  It's about control.  Always has been...

This has been going on since the 1960's in the U.S.  Across the U.S.

It's not just about the noise.  It's about control.  Always has been and always will be.  Noise is a convenient excuse.

Noise didn't cause the Sierra Club to have the government close down the desert.

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  Europeans should be the first to say this.

It’s not a green conspiracy here: in Central Europe landuse is naturally controlled by the authorities. Always has, long before green parties existed. If you want to turn your field into a track, you need to apply for it. Even if you want to turn your piece of forest into grassland you need permission. 

That comes with a high population density: Your freedom ends where mine begins. Or: if your farting fourstroke disturbs the neighbors, no permit. 

1
5
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
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Location
DE
2/1/2023 9:06pm
8500rpm wrote:
Yeah, same as some Japanese brands and electric cars. Honda, Toyota and many are behind and generally they are a bit sceptical about electric cars. Now...

Yeah, same as some Japanese brands and electric cars. Honda, Toyota and many are behind and generally they are a bit sceptical about electric cars. Now, we don't know if they are right or if they are the first losers. We will know 2035 maybe.

#434 wrote:
I think electric cars will only be the future if the respective government wants them to succeed and provides the infrastructure. But in moto that’s not...

I think electric cars will only be the future if the respective government wants them to succeed and provides the infrastructure.

But in moto that’s not an issue. Most important thing is performance and secondly practicability. If Stark delivers close to what they promise (about 75% of the promised power and range and 10 lbs more weight), this thing is going to be a smash hit, because normally skilled riders will be much faster on them, with less mistakes and fatigue (which is also safer) and will spend way less time in garage doing maintenance.

And think about the numbers that have been ordered. The big manufacturers are worried, but I don’t know if they’re worried enough to put some serious money into development. Doesn’t look like it at the moment. 

You…..how much faster will the average guy go on the Stark over similar gas bikes?  You seem to think it will be 5-10 seconds a lap...

You…..how much faster will the average guy go on the Stark over similar gas bikes?  You seem to think it will be 5-10 seconds a lap on a short Mx track.  Actually the way you speak you might think it’s even a more absurd number.  I think a big competitor will have a bike out before  Stark gets going and they’ll be smooshed before the next model gets developed.  They should have done $1,000 deposits to weed out the riff raft.  Seems bizarre they relocated to a new factory and upgraded all kinds of equipment based on demand from $100 orders……. 

Don’t be absurd. I reckon the difference for the average rider with bad technique and bad timing will be about as big as the difference between twostroke and fourstroke for him.

Like it or not, an eMX bike will outperform the ICE bike. If you can think of one technical reason why not, let me know!

9
RaceFace232
Posts
259
Joined
8/6/2021
Location
Northampton, MA US
2/1/2023 9:37pm
#434 wrote:
I think electric cars will only be the future if the respective government wants them to succeed and provides the infrastructure. But in moto that’s not...

I think electric cars will only be the future if the respective government wants them to succeed and provides the infrastructure.

But in moto that’s not an issue. Most important thing is performance and secondly practicability. If Stark delivers close to what they promise (about 75% of the promised power and range and 10 lbs more weight), this thing is going to be a smash hit, because normally skilled riders will be much faster on them, with less mistakes and fatigue (which is also safer) and will spend way less time in garage doing maintenance.

And think about the numbers that have been ordered. The big manufacturers are worried, but I don’t know if they’re worried enough to put some serious money into development. Doesn’t look like it at the moment. 

You…..how much faster will the average guy go on the Stark over similar gas bikes?  You seem to think it will be 5-10 seconds a lap...

You…..how much faster will the average guy go on the Stark over similar gas bikes?  You seem to think it will be 5-10 seconds a lap on a short Mx track.  Actually the way you speak you might think it’s even a more absurd number.  I think a big competitor will have a bike out before  Stark gets going and they’ll be smooshed before the next model gets developed.  They should have done $1,000 deposits to weed out the riff raft.  Seems bizarre they relocated to a new factory and upgraded all kinds of equipment based on demand from $100 orders……. 

#434 wrote:
Don’t be absurd. I reckon the difference for the average rider with bad technique and bad timing will be about as big as the difference between twostroke...

Don’t be absurd. I reckon the difference for the average rider with bad technique and bad timing will be about as big as the difference between twostroke and fourstroke for him.

Like it or not, an eMX bike will outperform the ICE bike. If you can think of one technical reason why not, let me know!

I’ll wait to see tests where they compare lap times.  It never pays to try and analyze technically why a bike should perform better. That’s why so many people rely on test articles.  For now I’m not seeing the obvious magical performance gains riders will see.  Proof will be in the pudding once they get put through the ringer.  I can see them sucking in soft soil, sand and mud but I don’t even have a video of one in those conditions to look at.  Makes me think there a reason that’s the case.  All I can remember is AJ Catanzaro hitting the sand section on the Alta at Club MX and going “whooooa this is horrible in the sand”

2
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
2/1/2023 10:03pm
You…..how much faster will the average guy go on the Stark over similar gas bikes?  You seem to think it will be 5-10 seconds a lap...

You…..how much faster will the average guy go on the Stark over similar gas bikes?  You seem to think it will be 5-10 seconds a lap on a short Mx track.  Actually the way you speak you might think it’s even a more absurd number.  I think a big competitor will have a bike out before  Stark gets going and they’ll be smooshed before the next model gets developed.  They should have done $1,000 deposits to weed out the riff raft.  Seems bizarre they relocated to a new factory and upgraded all kinds of equipment based on demand from $100 orders……. 

#434 wrote:
Don’t be absurd. I reckon the difference for the average rider with bad technique and bad timing will be about as big as the difference between twostroke...

Don’t be absurd. I reckon the difference for the average rider with bad technique and bad timing will be about as big as the difference between twostroke and fourstroke for him.

Like it or not, an eMX bike will outperform the ICE bike. If you can think of one technical reason why not, let me know!

I’ll wait to see tests where they compare lap times.  It never pays to try and analyze technically why a bike should perform better. That’s why...

I’ll wait to see tests where they compare lap times.  It never pays to try and analyze technically why a bike should perform better. That’s why so many people rely on test articles.  For now I’m not seeing the obvious magical performance gains riders will see.  Proof will be in the pudding once they get put through the ringer.  I can see them sucking in soft soil, sand and mud but I don’t even have a video of one in those conditions to look at.  Makes me think there a reason that’s the case.  All I can remember is AJ Catanzaro hitting the sand section on the Alta at Club MX and going “whooooa this is horrible in the sand”

Yeah man, I can’t wait to see some riding in sand and so on! 
They have addressed the problem of the motor slowing down too fast in deep soil by adding something like electronic inertia. The heavy crankshaft of a fourstroke has the tendency to pull through the heavy stuff. Electric motors (and 125s) don’t have that, but it can be added electronically. Let’s see how well they’ve implemented that. 
I don’t know how the Varg turns out, but just from a technical perspective there’s no reason why an ICE bike would be faster on a lap or a moto than an eMX. At least I can’t think of one. 

1
3
thewrizzle
Posts
491
Joined
4/27/2018
Location
Rochester, WA US
2/1/2023 10:17pm
Brent wrote:
Yeah I got warned about the true billing thing - I don't totally understand it yet but I guess it comes up every year. I need...

Yeah I got warned about the true billing thing - I don't totally understand it yet but I guess it comes up every year. I need to look into the details.

My first year with the system is up in June, so prior to that I plan on running the A/C and pool pumps 24/7 to eat up the "credit"

I really never expected to get money back from SCE anyway, I'm just happy I don't pay the utility 950.00 a month during summer like I used to, not to mention the car re-charge cost is covered...

Hold up, $950 a month?? How big is your house? 

RaceFace232
Posts
259
Joined
8/6/2021
Location
Northampton, MA US
2/1/2023 10:23pm
#434 wrote:
Don’t be absurd. I reckon the difference for the average rider with bad technique and bad timing will be about as big as the difference between twostroke...

Don’t be absurd. I reckon the difference for the average rider with bad technique and bad timing will be about as big as the difference between twostroke and fourstroke for him.

Like it or not, an eMX bike will outperform the ICE bike. If you can think of one technical reason why not, let me know!

I’ll wait to see tests where they compare lap times.  It never pays to try and analyze technically why a bike should perform better. That’s why...

I’ll wait to see tests where they compare lap times.  It never pays to try and analyze technically why a bike should perform better. That’s why so many people rely on test articles.  For now I’m not seeing the obvious magical performance gains riders will see.  Proof will be in the pudding once they get put through the ringer.  I can see them sucking in soft soil, sand and mud but I don’t even have a video of one in those conditions to look at.  Makes me think there a reason that’s the case.  All I can remember is AJ Catanzaro hitting the sand section on the Alta at Club MX and going “whooooa this is horrible in the sand”

#434 wrote:
Yeah man, I can’t wait to see some riding in sand and so on!  They have addressed the problem of the motor slowing down too fast...

Yeah man, I can’t wait to see some riding in sand and so on! 
They have addressed the problem of the motor slowing down too fast in deep soil by adding something like electronic inertia. The heavy crankshaft of a fourstroke has the tendency to pull through the heavy stuff. Electric motors (and 125s) don’t have that, but it can be added electronically. Let’s see how well they’ve implemented that. 
I don’t know how the Varg turns out, but just from a technical perspective there’s no reason why an ICE bike would be faster on a lap or a moto than an eMX. At least I can’t think of one. 

You don’t want it to be the case so you look for all the reasons to make the Battery powered better on paper.  I want them to be inferior in every respect because I can’t stand the idea of battery powered anything being forced upon us.  If the Vargs ever arrive I look forward to seeing tests comparisons and long term durability evaluations.  I think there will be some letdowns once we see real world long-term testing.

2
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
2/1/2023 11:11pm
I’ll wait to see tests where they compare lap times.  It never pays to try and analyze technically why a bike should perform better. That’s why...

I’ll wait to see tests where they compare lap times.  It never pays to try and analyze technically why a bike should perform better. That’s why so many people rely on test articles.  For now I’m not seeing the obvious magical performance gains riders will see.  Proof will be in the pudding once they get put through the ringer.  I can see them sucking in soft soil, sand and mud but I don’t even have a video of one in those conditions to look at.  Makes me think there a reason that’s the case.  All I can remember is AJ Catanzaro hitting the sand section on the Alta at Club MX and going “whooooa this is horrible in the sand”

#434 wrote:
Yeah man, I can’t wait to see some riding in sand and so on!  They have addressed the problem of the motor slowing down too fast...

Yeah man, I can’t wait to see some riding in sand and so on! 
They have addressed the problem of the motor slowing down too fast in deep soil by adding something like electronic inertia. The heavy crankshaft of a fourstroke has the tendency to pull through the heavy stuff. Electric motors (and 125s) don’t have that, but it can be added electronically. Let’s see how well they’ve implemented that. 
I don’t know how the Varg turns out, but just from a technical perspective there’s no reason why an ICE bike would be faster on a lap or a moto than an eMX. At least I can’t think of one. 

You don’t want it to be the case so you look for all the reasons to make the Battery powered better on paper.  I want them...

You don’t want it to be the case so you look for all the reasons to make the Battery powered better on paper.  I want them to be inferior in every respect because I can’t stand the idea of battery powered anything being forced upon us.  If the Vargs ever arrive I look forward to seeing tests comparisons and long term durability evaluations.  I think there will be some letdowns once we see real world long-term testing.

Luckily, physics doesn’t care about what you want or I want. 
A motocross bike that needs to last 30 min is THE perfect application for a battery powered vehicle. You‘ll see. 

7
LOOnatic
Posts
725
Joined
5/20/2019
Location
New Orleans, LA US
2/2/2023 1:45am Edited Date/Time 2/2/2023 1:47am
#434 wrote:
Luckily, physics doesn’t care about what you want or I want.  A motocross bike that needs to last 30 min is THE perfect application for a...

Luckily, physics doesn’t care about what you want or I want. 
A motocross bike that needs to last 30 min is THE perfect application for a battery powered vehicle. You‘ll see. 

You need to put down your E Bike crack pipe.

And I say that as someone who enjoyed riding a friend's Alta and who looks forward to what the Varg can do.

All you high and mighty electric superiority nonsense is making you look well...dumb.

Give it a rest and let the technology speak for itself.

And a 30 minute dirtbike may be perfect for YOU but is not for ME if i have to lug a gas powered generator around to charge the bike like my buddy with the Alta. 

 

Oh yeah one more thing. You are so clueless about the environmental movement.  I guess you're so used to them telling you what you can and can't  do . Trust them at your own peril.

You'll See

5

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