GP vs MX...I gotta say it

plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy
Edited Date/Time 6/20/2022 6:00pm
Ok, we've seen AC in the first two rounds. Granted he's retired, not been training/practicing but he didn't forget how to ride in one year. His results are totally respectable. Last year he still ran up near the front in the GP's.

My point is...we've been told for years now that the outdoor GP specialists are just better than our series. I kinda bought into it.

When I see AC (a podium GP guy) finish where he has (hey, no disrespect...I love the guy)...I am having second thoughts about which side of the pond is really faster.

Will the question finally be answered at MXoN this year?
11
65
|
two seven
Profile picture for user two seven
Posts
30
Joined
5/28/2011
Location
Temecula, CA, USA
two seven 6/9/2022 1:18pm
6/9/2022 1:18pm
GP guys are faster.... AC would be battling for wins at this time last year. He's not properly prepared and essentially riding a stock bike compared to what he's used to riding.
22
28
ProbablyDave 6/9/2022 1:18pm
6/9/2022 1:18pm
Wow, this topic never gets old, especially when the OP has no idea what they're talking about.
30
16
DeStouwer
Profile picture for user DeStouwer
Posts
3527
Joined
2/17/2015
Location
BE
DeStouwer 6/9/2022 1:19pm
6/9/2022 1:19pm
You should've stayed silent.
19
11
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy 6/9/2022 1:20pm
6/9/2022 1:20pm
ProbablyDave wrote:
Wow, this topic never gets old, especially when the OP has no idea what they're talking about.
Thanks budWoohoo
6

The Shop

See All »
SteveUrchin
Profile picture for user SteveUrchin
Posts
1166
Joined
7/6/2017
Location
Laguna Niguel, CA, USA
SteveUrchin 6/9/2022 1:25pm
6/9/2022 1:25pm
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
7
6
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy 6/9/2022 1:27pm
6/9/2022 1:27pm
DeStouwer wrote:
You should've stayed silent.
Hey, I really expected AC to lay wood to our guys. I did say that he was unprepared but is his finishing position an indication of how fast the current crop of national boys are? This isn't a hate thread...on AC or GP's. I love 'em both.
4
4
early
Profile picture for user early
Posts
9910
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
early 6/9/2022 1:30pm
6/9/2022 1:30pm
I wonder what Cairolis preparation for this year looks like compared to Villopoto 2015 GPs. Obviously RV was much younger so had a wider window to wick it up when the gate dropped , but he really wasn't interested in the series very much. RV had alot of problems with the bike before his crash out, I think he said it was difficult working with the team. I would put Cairoli over RV in outdoor skill so that makes up some of the age gap.

I hope Tony goes East with the series, I'm sure he would be on the podium soon.
3
5
APLMAN99
Profile picture for user APLMAN99
Posts
12508
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Tualatin, OR, USA
Fantasy
354th
APLMAN99 6/9/2022 1:34pm
6/9/2022 1:34pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
He rode the production frame ahead of time, no doubt. And the issue is that the production frame wasn't stiff enough, which is 'fixable' under the production rule as it is perfectly legal to add gussets, etc. It would be much more difficult to go the other weigh and try to build more flex into the frame legally, but stiffer should be relatively easy to make happen.

It's hard to say that the bike is a huge issue, unless we are also saying that the bikes give the FIM guys a huge advantage when they ride against the AMA guys as well........
4
3
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy 6/9/2022 1:34pm
6/9/2022 1:34pm
early wrote:
I wonder what Cairolis preparation for this year looks like compared to Villopoto 2015 GPs. Obviously RV was much younger so had a wider window to...
I wonder what Cairolis preparation for this year looks like compared to Villopoto 2015 GPs. Obviously RV was much younger so had a wider window to wick it up when the gate dropped , but he really wasn't interested in the series very much. RV had alot of problems with the bike before his crash out, I think he said it was difficult working with the team. I would put Cairoli over RV in outdoor skill so that makes up some of the age gap.

I hope Tony goes East with the series, I'm sure he would be on the podium soon.
Hell yeah. I hope he finishes the whole series. In both races so far I've seen him do stuff nobody else was doing. In some sections he seemed to be faster/cleaner than anyone else. When he styles a jump..NOBODY looks cooler.
3
1
Petrus Antonius 6/9/2022 1:38pm
6/9/2022 1:38pm
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track.

AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA guys are faster on a national track.

2 different types of racing, you can't really compare. Both have their own specialities
13
4
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy 6/9/2022 1:50pm
6/9/2022 1:50pm
Petrus Antonius wrote:
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track. AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA...
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track.

AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA guys are faster on a national track.

2 different types of racing, you can't really compare. Both have their own specialities
Won't disagree about tracks. Haven't been to a GP in a million years. I will tell you that both tracks so far have been rough as hell...even with repairs made after practice etc. I mean really cobby with lots of rocks and square edges.
1
cwel11
Profile picture for user cwel11
Posts
2684
Joined
12/4/2019
Location
Orangeville, PA, USA
cwel11 6/9/2022 1:51pm
6/9/2022 1:51pm
AC is not totally committed to it, riding on tracks he has no experience on, while having a paid family vacation. Still running around top 5-10. Not sure this settles anything or makes it murkier
20
1
devindavisphoto 6/9/2022 1:55pm
6/9/2022 1:55pm
Europeans also race motocross year-round and American-series based riders spend half the year riding Supercross. It doesn't mean either side is better or worse, it's just the way the cookie crumbles.
3
4
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy 6/9/2022 1:57pm
6/9/2022 1:57pm
cwel11 wrote:
AC is not totally committed to it, riding on tracks he has no experience on, while having a paid family vacation. Still running around top 5-10...
AC is not totally committed to it, riding on tracks he has no experience on, while having a paid family vacation. Still running around top 5-10. Not sure this settles anything or makes it murkier
I totally get it. I'm over the moon just seeing him out there. I've been hoarse yelling for him every lap. This thread is not meant to be a chest pounding opportunity. I was just commenting on how well the national boys were doing against him. He's sort of the yardstick for greatness in this era.
3
garasaki
Profile picture for user garasaki
Posts
208
Joined
1/20/2021
Location
Mount Vernon, IA, USA
garasaki 6/9/2022 2:05pm
6/9/2022 2:05pm
two seven wrote:
GP guys are faster.... AC would be battling for wins at this time last year. He's not properly prepared and essentially riding a stock bike compared...
GP guys are faster.... AC would be battling for wins at this time last year. He's not properly prepared and essentially riding a stock bike compared to what he's used to riding.
I'm confused about the bike argument.

In a GP race, all the riders follow GP bike rules.

In an AMA race, all the riders follow AMA bike rules.

Are we suggesting that in a "who is faster race", everyone follows whatever rules they want? Are you saying GP bikes are faster so a GP rider would win? Are you saying an AMA rider on a GP bike would or wouldn't be competitive at a GP race? Would an AMA rider on an AMA bike be competitive at a GP race?

I'm not about to wade into the "who is faster" argument, I'm just saying that the whole bike argument seems completely pointless.
3
1
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy 6/9/2022 2:12pm
6/9/2022 2:12pm
two seven wrote:
GP guys are faster.... AC would be battling for wins at this time last year. He's not properly prepared and essentially riding a stock bike compared...
GP guys are faster.... AC would be battling for wins at this time last year. He's not properly prepared and essentially riding a stock bike compared to what he's used to riding.
garasaki wrote:
I'm confused about the bike argument. In a GP race, all the riders follow GP bike rules. In an AMA race, all the riders follow AMA...
I'm confused about the bike argument.

In a GP race, all the riders follow GP bike rules.

In an AMA race, all the riders follow AMA bike rules.

Are we suggesting that in a "who is faster race", everyone follows whatever rules they want? Are you saying GP bikes are faster so a GP rider would win? Are you saying an AMA rider on a GP bike would or wouldn't be competitive at a GP race? Would an AMA rider on an AMA bike be competitive at a GP race?

I'm not about to wade into the "who is faster" argument, I'm just saying that the whole bike argument seems completely pointless.
I think he's saying that the difference between the two bikes would take some time for adjustment. I get that...hell, these guys can feel a couple of psi in their tires or a millimeter in fork height. A completely different frame or other works parts could be troublesome.
1
KurtJ99
Profile picture for user KurtJ99
Posts
2441
Joined
2/6/2017
Location
USA
KurtJ99 6/9/2022 2:12pm
6/9/2022 2:12pm
If Cairoli had been
- grinding the off-season races and not retired
- testing the US spec bike on US tracks more extensively

It would be a decent comparison.
If Gasjer or Prado was here it would be a little more direct comparison.

I'm still waiting for Tomac to make good on that "I may have to extend my career to race MXGP" comment he made about 4 years ago. I think everyone would like to see a top tier rider cross the pond (either way) for a full series run
3
1
early
Profile picture for user early
Posts
9910
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
early 6/9/2022 2:13pm
6/9/2022 2:13pm
cwel11 wrote:
AC is not totally committed to it, riding on tracks he has no experience on, while having a paid family vacation. Still running around top 5-10...
AC is not totally committed to it, riding on tracks he has no experience on, while having a paid family vacation. Still running around top 5-10. Not sure this settles anything or makes it murkier
I hope Cairoli and Dunge finish out the series strong so we can see if they make up any ground to the front guys. I think Tomac is still coming to grips with the bike, Anderson and Sexton will probably be at a similar level as the first 2 rounds the rest of the season, Kenny may have some more speed available.

Getting a top guy to join the opposite series is such a rare thing even as a retirement tour it's good insight to differences in riding styles.
3

Pit Row

See All »
aees
Profile picture for user aees
Posts
2793
Joined
8/20/2015
Location
USA
aees 6/9/2022 2:41pm
6/9/2022 2:41pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
Herlings disagree 😄 He did ok when he was over 😉
5
2
Chris_Buehler
Profile picture for user Chris_Buehler
Posts
8403
Joined
7/21/2019
Location
PORTLAND, CT, USA
Chris_Buehler 6/9/2022 2:42pm
6/9/2022 2:42pm
cwel11 wrote:
AC is not totally committed to it, riding on tracks he has no experience on, while having a paid family vacation. Still running around top 5-10...
AC is not totally committed to it, riding on tracks he has no experience on, while having a paid family vacation. Still running around top 5-10. Not sure this settles anything or makes it murkier
Bingo.
3
Leeham
Profile picture for user Leeham
Posts
1159
Joined
10/29/2018
Location
Rochester, WA, USA
Leeham 6/9/2022 2:44pm
6/9/2022 2:44pm
Another stupid beat to death topic…
2
2
aees
Profile picture for user aees
Posts
2793
Joined
8/20/2015
Location
USA
aees 6/9/2022 2:44pm
6/9/2022 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2022 2:44pm
Petrus Antonius wrote:
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track. AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA...
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track.

AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA guys are faster on a national track.

2 different types of racing, you can't really compare. Both have their own specialities
This big jumps is kind of old. Look back at WW ranch, only GP guys (Herlings, Cairoli etc) doing big quad at the back. AMA guys did not want anything to do with it. Same at Redbud MxON. Only GP guys doing it consequently.
6
3
davis224
Profile picture for user davis224
Posts
7469
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Cornland, IL, USA
Fantasy
172nd
davis224 6/9/2022 2:47pm
6/9/2022 2:47pm
One thing I don't see talked about enough, line formations. It's what hurts us a little at the MXoN, like how everyone thought the track prep was weird at Red Bud 2018. The MXoN is vast majority MXGP riders carving the lines that are more sweeping, vs more point and shoot for the nationals. Now it's just Cairoli riding the lines made from a field of AMA riders. It's not everything, but it for sure plays a role
17
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy 6/9/2022 2:49pm
6/9/2022 2:49pm
davis224 wrote:
One thing I don't see talked about enough, line formations. It's what hurts us a little at the MXoN, like how everyone thought the track prep...
One thing I don't see talked about enough, line formations. It's what hurts us a little at the MXoN, like how everyone thought the track prep was weird at Red Bud 2018. The MXoN is vast majority MXGP riders carving the lines that are more sweeping, vs more point and shoot for the nationals. Now it's just Cairoli riding the lines made from a field of AMA riders. It's not everything, but it for sure plays a role
Good point.
1
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
14394
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS, USA
plowboy 6/9/2022 2:53pm
6/9/2022 2:53pm
Leeham wrote:
Another stupid beat to death topic…
I'm sorry. Were you at Pala and Hangtown watching and wondering how the boys stack up against one of the greats? My feeble brain had to ask as I watched...maybe our guys aren't as far behind as I thought.
3
2
KlockreN
Profile picture for user KlockreN
Posts
244
Joined
3/23/2019
Location
SE
KlockreN 6/9/2022 3:01pm
6/9/2022 3:01pm
the guy had 1 win and 1 podium last year in the GPs and this year he had 1week on his new bike and not in shape as he used to be. ofc he's going to be off the podium unless he really feels it during the weekend
3
4
FlaNard
Profile picture for user FlaNard
Posts
3620
Joined
10/13/2009
Location
Layton, UT, USA
FlaNard 6/9/2022 3:23pm
6/9/2022 3:23pm
Kind of hoped we would avoid this since we all know that Tony is not the same racer he was in his younger days. Just enjoy it.
8
1
SteveUrchin
Profile picture for user SteveUrchin
Posts
1166
Joined
7/6/2017
Location
Laguna Niguel, CA, USA
SteveUrchin 6/9/2022 3:24pm
6/9/2022 3:24pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
aees wrote:
Herlings disagree 😄 He did ok when he was over 😉
Haha what did he race 2 races? And how many years ago? Florida was a GP so he had his own bike right? Are you referring to Iron man?
2
TbonesPop 6/9/2022 3:27pm
6/9/2022 3:27pm
Petrus Antonius wrote:
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track. AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA...
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track.

AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA guys are faster on a national track.

2 different types of racing, you can't really compare. Both have their own specialities
On the big jumps thingy, Seewer just took his shirt off based on your comment
4
TbonesPop 6/9/2022 3:31pm
6/9/2022 3:31pm
FlaNard wrote:
Kind of hoped we would avoid this since we all know that Tony is not the same racer he was in his younger days. Just enjoy...
Kind of hoped we would avoid this since we all know that Tony is not the same racer he was in his younger days. Just enjoy it.
Ya, I hear that. But honestly, given that Tony has no pressure to race and where he finishes and he's not in normal race shape and on a totally different feeling bike, he's still finishing in a highly respectable position IMHO. He's still beating a lot of good riders. He and Dunge are doing about as good as most people thought they would 5-10 range finishes.

I'd bet if our US racers went to the GPs and ran a whole series with preseason prep (ie not doing any SX either), etc they would be right there in the mix, and Vice Versa if the GP riders came here. I think it's even.
6

Post a reply to: GP vs MX...I gotta say it