Innovations 2022: Stark new E-MX, KTM modern 2-T and big4 from Japan BNG.

tek14
Posts
4892
Joined
1/26/2014
Location
Vantaa FI
Edited Date/Time 5/12/2022 3:06am
Seems lack of innovations and new things from Japan?
2
8
|
GrapeApe
Posts
8735
Joined
6/7/2010
Location
Mc Kinney, TX US
5/10/2022 12:34pm Edited Date/Time 5/10/2022 12:34pm
This is a little premature considering Suzuki has yet to launch its '23 lineup
30
1
kb228
Posts
6154
Joined
1/31/2018
Location
Mansfield, OH US
5/10/2022 3:20pm
Does ktm have wifi controlled maps yet? I think out of any new tech that would be at the top of the list
2
1
731chopper
Posts
4224
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX US
5/10/2022 3:48pm
Are the fuel injected two strokes any good for motocross yet?
1
tobz
Posts
3891
Joined
3/5/2007
Location
Adelaide AU
5/10/2022 3:58pm
tek14 wrote:
Seems lack of innovations and new things from Japan?
The big 4 have always been traditionally slow in change, not sure why this surprises you.

KTM’s rapid developments come with their issues. People are starting to realise that they don’t perform as good as they look.
2
13

The Shop

spimx
Posts
1296
Joined
3/25/2019
Location
Port Isabel, TX US
5/10/2022 4:12pm Edited Date/Time 5/10/2022 4:16pm
The stark guy does not impress me. He's making big claims of weight and power without an official test of the bike. Cannondale did the same thing and was way overweight and underperforming. Japanese engineering is some of the best in the world everything else has yet to be proven. The 22 kx450sr is a bad bitch and that is a fact. Eli Tomac did not win on a stark varg that's for sure
6
14
wr74
Posts
198
Joined
4/13/2015
Location
AU
5/10/2022 4:25pm
Well, Kawasaki has a completely new 450 in the works, unfortunately 24 model though. Honda builds a completely new 450/250 every 4 years, with updates in between. Yamaha updates every 4/5 years has amazing suspension, wifi tuning and wins most of the shootouts. What do you want ? Two strokes aren’t coming back (from the Japanese manufacturers who gave up on them) but soon it will be all about electric (sadly, I say) and maybe the Japanese lead the way again, who knows?

Ktms look great on paper, but ownership reveals they aren’t perfect. Over the last theee years I’ve had husky’s ktms and Hondas, each has their pro and cons. No way can you say Japan has been left behind in performance.

4
1
Bruce372
Posts
6329
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
5/10/2022 4:50pm
731chopper wrote:
Are the fuel injected two strokes any good for motocross yet?
Worked out well on the 4 strokes....... eventually 😉
rjg
Posts
440
Joined
9/27/2016
Location
CA
5/10/2022 6:03pm Edited Date/Time 5/10/2022 6:07pm
In motocross or offroad manufacturing context- Japan competes with japan for domestic sustainability. Its their culture. They are not intentionally in direct competition with outside manufacturers. To give an example, when the current generation of the crf450 came out Honda laid claim it was the lightest motocross bike built. Evidently not! But in japan at that time it was. :-)
731chopper
Posts
4224
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX US
5/10/2022 8:19pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Worked out well on the 4 strokes....... eventually 😉
It was an honest question because I’d love a two stroke with good fuel injection
Zoom
Posts
1356
Joined
10/21/2012
Location
Cypress, TX US
5/10/2022 8:57pm
spimx wrote:
The stark guy does not impress me. He's making big claims of weight and power without an official test of the bike. Cannondale did the same...
The stark guy does not impress me. He's making big claims of weight and power without an official test of the bike. Cannondale did the same thing and was way overweight and underperforming. Japanese engineering is some of the best in the world everything else has yet to be proven. The 22 kx450sr is a bad bitch and that is a fact. Eli Tomac did not win on a stark varg that's for sure
50 world wide media groups will be headed to Barcelona later this month for the Stark press launch. Dealers are being set up around the globe as we speak. They are on the way and its gonna be good.
13
2
5/11/2022 3:22am
tek14 wrote:
Seems lack of innovations and new things from Japan?
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport???

Yamaha on the other hand did start the 4Stroke Revolution, had the Powervalve, Mono-Shock, they even got the reversed Engine running to an very high Level

KTM bought Husaberg to get their 4 Stroke engines Reliable with the Husaberg design (which was also based on older Husky 4strokes), took their ready to race slogan and buried them afterwards. They are good in marketing/promoting, their bikes are very light and they spent a fortune on riders to get their wins (win on sunday sell on monday) which are cruciual for them as they rely on them as most of their bikes are race bikes...


Anyway- we can all be happy there are still some companys around building bikes to our likings- there is a specific bike to suit any costumer- so lets just be happy and ride them.

3
6
Motofinne
Posts
11360
Joined
1/4/2014
Location
FI
5/11/2022 5:19am
The 2023 launch was a disappointment in my opinion. To not match or better Yamaha with the EFI tuning is a big negative surprise in my opinion.
2
4
GD350
Posts
218
Joined
2/23/2021
Location
Plymouth , MO US
5/11/2022 6:10am
kb228 wrote:
Does ktm have wifi controlled maps yet? I think out of any new tech that would be at the top of the list

Yes they do
1
Andy7
Posts
471
Joined
2/24/2017
Location
Venado Tuerto, Santa Fe AR
Fantasy
5/11/2022 6:37am
GD350 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/11/549371/s1200_Screenshot_20220511_080941.jpg[/img] Yes they do

Yes they do
How do you map the bike? Do you need something like a power tuner? Or is it like the Yamaha app? And how much engine braking can you get rid of? That's the most important to me
tek14
Posts
4892
Joined
1/26/2014
Location
Vantaa FI
5/11/2022 7:03am
Miezie666 wrote:
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport??? Yamaha on the other hand did start...
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport???

Yamaha on the other hand did start the 4Stroke Revolution, had the Powervalve, Mono-Shock, they even got the reversed Engine running to an very high Level

KTM bought Husaberg to get their 4 Stroke engines Reliable with the Husaberg design (which was also based on older Husky 4strokes), took their ready to race slogan and buried them afterwards. They are good in marketing/promoting, their bikes are very light and they spent a fortune on riders to get their wins (win on sunday sell on monday) which are cruciual for them as they rely on them as most of their bikes are race bikes...


Anyway- we can all be happy there are still some companys around building bikes to our likings- there is a specific bike to suit any costumer- so lets just be happy and ride them.

KTM came out e-start for bikes.
KTM came out lighter bikes.
KTM came out with TPI and TBI-2-strokes.
KTM came out finger followers for MX 4-strokes.
KTM came out with mapping/launch control switch.
KTM came out with E-5 electric kids MX.
Other factories have followed them so they have some things that changed the sport.

And I do ride Yamaha.
7
1
5/11/2022 7:44am
spimx wrote:
The stark guy does not impress me. He's making big claims of weight and power without an official test of the bike. Cannondale did the same...
The stark guy does not impress me. He's making big claims of weight and power without an official test of the bike. Cannondale did the same thing and was way overweight and underperforming. Japanese engineering is some of the best in the world everything else has yet to be proven. The 22 kx450sr is a bad bitch and that is a fact. Eli Tomac did not win on a stark varg that's for sure
I agree. I think they're selling a lot of smoke on the Stark Varg. All the claims and no real world tests vs current bikes. Time will tell, and then it'll be a novelty as fast as it showed up. No one will race them, its just not motocross without engines.
3
6
hushpuff
Posts
15
Joined
9/2/2021
Location
Denver, CO US
5/11/2022 8:16am
kb228 wrote:
Does ktm have wifi controlled maps yet? I think out of any new tech that would be at the top of the list
GD350 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/05/11/549371/s1200_Screenshot_20220511_080941.jpg[/img] Yes they do

Yes they do
But they didn't put it on the new FE's... I am dissapoint.
JM485
Posts
5781
Joined
10/1/2013
Location
Davis, CA US
5/11/2022 8:19am
spimx wrote:
The stark guy does not impress me. He's making big claims of weight and power without an official test of the bike. Cannondale did the same...
The stark guy does not impress me. He's making big claims of weight and power without an official test of the bike. Cannondale did the same thing and was way overweight and underperforming. Japanese engineering is some of the best in the world everything else has yet to be proven. The 22 kx450sr is a bad bitch and that is a fact. Eli Tomac did not win on a stark varg that's for sure
HonDawg17 wrote:
I agree. I think they're selling a lot of smoke on the Stark Varg. All the claims and no real world tests vs current bikes. Time...
I agree. I think they're selling a lot of smoke on the Stark Varg. All the claims and no real world tests vs current bikes. Time will tell, and then it'll be a novelty as fast as it showed up. No one will race them, its just not motocross without engines.
I'm going to be racing one soooo. . .
1
Johnny Ringo
Posts
7900
Joined
1/11/2016
Location
Tombstone, AZ US
5/11/2022 8:39am
If you don’t like what Japan is bringing to the table then speak with your wallet and go buy an “innovative” bike. It’s pretty simple.

The thing that cracks me up is for years MXA has been shitting on the weight of the Japan brands and now this new KTM weighs more than the previous Gen. In their test they said they liked the additional weight because it’s more stable and the weight added was from “trick” parts. They just can’t help themselves.
1
2
Broseph
Posts
1187
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA US
5/11/2022 3:51pm
tek14 wrote:
Seems lack of innovations and new things from Japan?
Miezie666 wrote:
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport??? Yamaha on the other hand did start...
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport???

Yamaha on the other hand did start the 4Stroke Revolution, had the Powervalve, Mono-Shock, they even got the reversed Engine running to an very high Level

KTM bought Husaberg to get their 4 Stroke engines Reliable with the Husaberg design (which was also based on older Husky 4strokes), took their ready to race slogan and buried them afterwards. They are good in marketing/promoting, their bikes are very light and they spent a fortune on riders to get their wins (win on sunday sell on monday) which are cruciual for them as they rely on them as most of their bikes are race bikes...


Anyway- we can all be happy there are still some companys around building bikes to our likings- there is a specific bike to suit any costumer- so lets just be happy and ride them.

First things that come to mind:
Steel clutch basket, thin friction steel core clutch plates (Rekluse copied them here), diaphragm spring clutch, hollow pin clutch hub, hydraulic clutch actuation, amazing brakes, light weight, counterbalanced 2 stroke, fuel injected 2 stroke.
1
Broseph
Posts
1187
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA US
5/11/2022 3:55pm
If you don’t like what Japan is bringing to the table then speak with your wallet and go buy an “innovative” bike. It’s pretty simple. The...
If you don’t like what Japan is bringing to the table then speak with your wallet and go buy an “innovative” bike. It’s pretty simple.

The thing that cracks me up is for years MXA has been shitting on the weight of the Japan brands and now this new KTM weighs more than the previous Gen. In their test they said they liked the additional weight because it’s more stable and the weight added was from “trick” parts. They just can’t help themselves.
Did they really? I was waiting for it. So suddenly scale weight doesn’t matter to ktMXA? That’s rich.
Johnny Ringo
Posts
7900
Joined
1/11/2016
Location
Tombstone, AZ US
5/11/2022 6:30pm Edited Date/Time 5/11/2022 6:32pm
If you don’t like what Japan is bringing to the table then speak with your wallet and go buy an “innovative” bike. It’s pretty simple. The...
If you don’t like what Japan is bringing to the table then speak with your wallet and go buy an “innovative” bike. It’s pretty simple.

The thing that cracks me up is for years MXA has been shitting on the weight of the Japan brands and now this new KTM weighs more than the previous Gen. In their test they said they liked the additional weight because it’s more stable and the weight added was from “trick” parts. They just can’t help themselves.
Broseph wrote:
Did they really? I was waiting for it. So suddenly scale weight doesn’t matter to ktMXA? That’s rich.
Latest issue, KTM FE test. I shit you not. I was laughing
1
gjbruny
Posts
559
Joined
1/14/2012
Location
Spokane, WA US
5/11/2022 7:18pm
Miezie666 wrote:
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport??? Yamaha on the other hand did start...
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport???

Yamaha on the other hand did start the 4Stroke Revolution, had the Powervalve, Mono-Shock, they even got the reversed Engine running to an very high Level

KTM bought Husaberg to get their 4 Stroke engines Reliable with the Husaberg design (which was also based on older Husky 4strokes), took their ready to race slogan and buried them afterwards. They are good in marketing/promoting, their bikes are very light and they spent a fortune on riders to get their wins (win on sunday sell on monday) which are cruciual for them as they rely on them as most of their bikes are race bikes...


Anyway- we can all be happy there are still some companys around building bikes to our likings- there is a specific bike to suit any costumer- so lets just be happy and ride them.

Looks like a number of people have answered you above although there is more… Kawi owes much of their current engine and clutch design to KTM… but then again they were actually using Suzuki’s 250f engine in their bike the first year or 2 that they offered a 250f… might have even been a green rebadged Suzuki… I can’t completely remember.

The idea that KTM bought husaberg to somehow increase their engine reliability is laughable considering the RFS engine line is arguably one of the most bulletproof “modern 4st” engines ever designed… one of the mags did an ultra long term review on a 400 with over 20,000 miles on it and said, that the Japanese should be embarrassed at their maintenance schedules and should take note at the lifespan of the KTM engines… this was WAY WAY before KTMs were so mainstream and were still considered “odd European” bikes. I think they said that they really didn’t even need to change the piston but did simply because they had it apart.

There is so much tech that has been brought to the game in the last decade by the Austrians that is now used by other manufacturers that people like yourself have either conveniently forgotten or don’t even realize.

I get that most people have their favorite color… but it blows my mind that people like to shit on companies who have brought innovation to the table that all companies have either added to their products, or been forced to innovate against to stay competitive.

In the end we all win
1
1
gjbruny
Posts
559
Joined
1/14/2012
Location
Spokane, WA US
5/11/2022 7:21pm
^^^^
Beta actually used the KTM RFS engines in their bikes the first several years that they offered 4 strokes… that has been in this last decade
Broseph
Posts
1187
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA US
5/11/2022 10:28pm Edited Date/Time 5/11/2022 10:29pm
Miezie666 wrote:
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport??? Yamaha on the other hand did start...
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport???

Yamaha on the other hand did start the 4Stroke Revolution, had the Powervalve, Mono-Shock, they even got the reversed Engine running to an very high Level

KTM bought Husaberg to get their 4 Stroke engines Reliable with the Husaberg design (which was also based on older Husky 4strokes), took their ready to race slogan and buried them afterwards. They are good in marketing/promoting, their bikes are very light and they spent a fortune on riders to get their wins (win on sunday sell on monday) which are cruciual for them as they rely on them as most of their bikes are race bikes...


Anyway- we can all be happy there are still some companys around building bikes to our likings- there is a specific bike to suit any costumer- so lets just be happy and ride them.

gjbruny wrote:
Looks like a number of people have answered you above although there is more… Kawi owes much of their current engine and clutch design to KTM...
Looks like a number of people have answered you above although there is more… Kawi owes much of their current engine and clutch design to KTM… but then again they were actually using Suzuki’s 250f engine in their bike the first year or 2 that they offered a 250f… might have even been a green rebadged Suzuki… I can’t completely remember.

The idea that KTM bought husaberg to somehow increase their engine reliability is laughable considering the RFS engine line is arguably one of the most bulletproof “modern 4st” engines ever designed… one of the mags did an ultra long term review on a 400 with over 20,000 miles on it and said, that the Japanese should be embarrassed at their maintenance schedules and should take note at the lifespan of the KTM engines… this was WAY WAY before KTMs were so mainstream and were still considered “odd European” bikes. I think they said that they really didn’t even need to change the piston but did simply because they had it apart.

There is so much tech that has been brought to the game in the last decade by the Austrians that is now used by other manufacturers that people like yourself have either conveniently forgotten or don’t even realize.

I get that most people have their favorite color… but it blows my mind that people like to shit on companies who have brought innovation to the table that all companies have either added to their products, or been forced to innovate against to stay competitive.

In the end we all win
The RFS was the Husaberg design btw.
1
wr74
Posts
198
Joined
4/13/2015
Location
AU
5/12/2022 12:06am
If you don’t like what Japan is bringing to the table then speak with your wallet and go buy an “innovative” bike. It’s pretty simple. The...
If you don’t like what Japan is bringing to the table then speak with your wallet and go buy an “innovative” bike. It’s pretty simple.

The thing that cracks me up is for years MXA has been shitting on the weight of the Japan brands and now this new KTM weighs more than the previous Gen. In their test they said they liked the additional weight because it’s more stable and the weight added was from “trick” parts. They just can’t help themselves.
Broseph wrote:
Did they really? I was waiting for it. So suddenly scale weight doesn’t matter to ktMXA? That’s rich.
Latest issue, KTM FE test. I shit you not. I was laughing
Regards the MXA test... made me laugh out loud too, just so good how they get themselves in knots trying to justify how weight is now no longer so important, suddenly now KTM's are not so light... cut and past from the 450 factory edition test just out.


Q: WHAT DID IT WEIGH?

A: Initially, the KTM engineers told us that the Factory Edition was "4 pounds heavier, more or less" than the 2022 production 450SXF. The "more or less" comment scared us. It could have meant that they knew exactly what it weighed and didn’t want to tell us or that they didn’t know what it weighed and were guesstimating. We drained the gas tank and weighed the bike ourselves. It weighed a surprising 231 pounds. That is 8 pounds more than the 2022 production bike.
That sounds bad, but we give KTM the benefit of the doubt, because: (1) Even at 231 pounds, it is still the second lightest 450 motocross bike after the 222-pound GasGas MC 450F. (2) The Factory Edition is littered with "added value parts" that not only add value but add weight. (3) By our calculations, the Factory hubs, rims, cross-three spoke pattern, skid plate, front rotor guard, pleated seat cover, wider front fender, split triple clamps, hybrid aluminum/plastic subframe and "forged" head tube cradle, shock tower, frame gusseting, motor mounts and head stay brackets all add approximately 4 pounds. (4) If you subtract 4 pounds from 231 pounds, you get 227 pounds ("more or less") for the yet-to be released 2023 production 450SXF.


Their logic (and maths) is so far off its kind of embarrassing. Somehow the following parts are exclusive to the FE and won't make it to the 23 production bikes.....

".....wider front fender, ..... , hybrid aluminum/plastic subframe and "forged" head tube cradle, shock tower, frame gusseting, motor mounts and head stay brackets all add approximately 4 pounds."

WTF ?!?! So the production bike won't get the new frame, subframe, motor mounts, head stay and shock tower?!?

1
5/12/2022 3:01am Edited Date/Time 5/12/2022 3:04am
tek14 wrote:
Seems lack of innovations and new things from Japan?
Miezie666 wrote:
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport??? Yamaha on the other hand did start...
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport???

Yamaha on the other hand did start the 4Stroke Revolution, had the Powervalve, Mono-Shock, they even got the reversed Engine running to an very high Level

KTM bought Husaberg to get their 4 Stroke engines Reliable with the Husaberg design (which was also based on older Husky 4strokes), took their ready to race slogan and buried them afterwards. They are good in marketing/promoting, their bikes are very light and they spent a fortune on riders to get their wins (win on sunday sell on monday) which are cruciual for them as they rely on them as most of their bikes are race bikes...


Anyway- we can all be happy there are still some companys around building bikes to our likings- there is a specific bike to suit any costumer- so lets just be happy and ride them.

Broseph wrote:
First things that come to mind: Steel clutch basket, thin friction steel core clutch plates (Rekluse copied them here), diaphragm spring clutch, hollow pin clutch hub...
First things that come to mind:
Steel clutch basket, thin friction steel core clutch plates (Rekluse copied them here), diaphragm spring clutch, hollow pin clutch hub, hydraulic clutch actuation, amazing brakes, light weight, counterbalanced 2 stroke, fuel injected 2 stroke.
counter balanced engine was gasgas around 2000...

But if we are talking innovation i would say ALTA and Cannondale where the most Innovative Brand in the last 25 Years, Alta because they had a brand new Product which was great from the beginning, Cannondale for the creativity- Electric start, eFI, Backwards engine... it just wasnt engineered right.

1
Sandusky26
Posts
3385
Joined
7/28/2021
Location
Eastern, NC US
5/12/2022 3:06am
Miezie666 wrote:
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport??? Yamaha on the other hand did start...
Talking about innovation- what kind of new technology has KTM really brought to the MX which changed the Sport???

Yamaha on the other hand did start the 4Stroke Revolution, had the Powervalve, Mono-Shock, they even got the reversed Engine running to an very high Level

KTM bought Husaberg to get their 4 Stroke engines Reliable with the Husaberg design (which was also based on older Husky 4strokes), took their ready to race slogan and buried them afterwards. They are good in marketing/promoting, their bikes are very light and they spent a fortune on riders to get their wins (win on sunday sell on monday) which are cruciual for them as they rely on them as most of their bikes are race bikes...


Anyway- we can all be happy there are still some companys around building bikes to our likings- there is a specific bike to suit any costumer- so lets just be happy and ride them.

tek14 wrote:
KTM came out e-start for bikes. KTM came out lighter bikes. KTM came out with TPI and TBI-2-strokes. KTM came out finger followers for MX 4-strokes...
KTM came out e-start for bikes.
KTM came out lighter bikes.
KTM came out with TPI and TBI-2-strokes.
KTM came out finger followers for MX 4-strokes.
KTM came out with mapping/launch control switch.
KTM came out with E-5 electric kids MX.
Other factories have followed them so they have some things that changed the sport.

And I do ride Yamaha.
Where you at Randy?

Post a reply to: Innovations 2022: Stark new E-MX, KTM modern 2-T and big4 from Japan BNG.

The Latest