STARK FUTURE VARG - An Electric Bike that is Faster and Lighter than a 450?

#434 wrote:

I think, and I‘m not sure, that the slippery finger has something to with who the cells are mounted in the casing. The casing has milled...

I think, and I‘m not sure, that the slippery finger has something to with who the cells are mounted in the casing. The casing has milled out holes for each cell. That way they are very securely mounted and can dissipate heat easily to the casing.
I don’t know the battery pack of the Alta was built, but a big problem was that the pack overheated.

The pressure relief is needed when the battery heats up and the air inside expands. I think it’s cool that the Varg is completely waterproof.

Falcon wrote:

Just a thought... How many newbies are going to enter the sport because of electricity? "Oh, now that off-road motorcycles aren't polluting the Earth, I think...

Just a thought...
How many newbies are going to enter the sport because of electricity? "Oh, now that off-road motorcycles aren't polluting the Earth, I think I'll get one. I may as well get the 80HP version, because my car has 120 HP. I can handle it. Just twist the throttle WFO - the bike does all the work." Whiskey throttle follows...

vitalriderCrf wrote:

None. Electric isn't going to grow the sport. It will just be another option for people who already ride, but most will still want an ICE...

None. Electric isn't going to grow the sport. It will just be another option for people who already ride, but most will still want an ICE bike. If anything your average moto guy wants to see more OEM's making two strokes and more affordable four strokes. I never hear anyone say they want an electric bike for the track. This stark looks great and everything but why am I gonna haul a generator to the track when it takes two seconds to dump 91 into my current bike?

TooTallJason wrote:

I want to be very clear with something, I hate Tesla's. I've driven every model they've made in almost ever configuration from an early Roadster all...

I want to be very clear with something, I hate Tesla's. I've driven every model they've made in almost ever configuration from an early Roadster all the way to late Model S Plaid with the yoke steering wheel. I hate the stupid screen on the dash that sucks to use; the HVAC system is a nightmare. Every cool "feature" is actually a dumb gimmick. "Autopilot" is cool to use, but do I trust it? NO. The fit and finish is horrendous. Go get into a Mercedes that has the same switches in it and tell me which one is actually luxury (it's the Mercedes).

I order parts for vehicles for a living and without question Tesla is the worst company to deal with. I can only buy parts direct from them, they take forever, charge ridiculous shipping fees and make zero literature available for repair procedure. If you own a Tesla and take it to an independent for repair, you're an idiot, because Tesla doesn't even have to sell their parts for wholesale prices to repair facilities, so you're paying retail + markup for Tesla parts at my shop.

ALL THAT SAID, every Tesla I've driven has put a gigantic smile on my face because they're fast as fuck and fun as shit to drive. As long as Stark doesn't do the stupid shit Tesla does, and add an ability to make the Varg sound like a car from the Jetsons or some shit, and the bike performs like a Tesla with two wheels, the second you ride one you'll understand.

Robgvx wrote:

I’m all for a clutch. An electric bike may have maximum torque at zero revs, but with a clutch you have instantaneous power without moving your...

I’m all for a clutch. An electric bike may have maximum torque at zero revs, but with a clutch you have instantaneous power without moving your wrist. When I’m cranked over in a sandy berm and need more ooomph to pick the bike up I want to achieve that with a minute movement of my finger, not by having to rotate my wrist and forearm.

I also wonder what happens when you hit the rear brake in the air. I know it can’t stall but does it react the same?

That said, I’ve never ridden an electric bike so I’m happy to change my opinion if I ever get to ride one.

#434 wrote:

Sure! Rear wheal stop and as a counter reaction the front end of the bike drops. Why would it be different?

#434 wrote:

I think, and I‘m not sure, that the slippery finger has something to with who the cells are mounted in the casing. The casing has milled...

I think, and I‘m not sure, that the slippery finger has something to with who the cells are mounted in the casing. The casing has milled out holes for each cell. That way they are very securely mounted and can dissipate heat easily to the casing.
I don’t know the battery pack of the Alta was built, but a big problem was that the pack overheated.

The pressure relief is needed when the battery heats up and the air inside expands. I think it’s cool that the Varg is completely waterproof.

Larry450 wrote:

Yep. I got that from message from the videos as well. But would you call it "slippery fingers"? Where the fingers? And why are they slippery...

Yep. I got that from message from the videos as well. But would you call it "slippery fingers"? Where the fingers? And why are they slippery? Any info on voltage of the battery? Maybe I am just an idiot but there might some cool tech that Stark is not telling us at least not yet.

Here is video some guy disassembling alta battery. Those cells in middle of pack must have been running hot hot hot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BoWQ54NpU0&ab_channel=SheaNyquist

TooTallJason wrote:

I want to be very clear with something, I hate Tesla's. I've driven every model they've made in almost ever configuration from an early Roadster all...

I want to be very clear with something, I hate Tesla's. I've driven every model they've made in almost ever configuration from an early Roadster all the way to late Model S Plaid with the yoke steering wheel. I hate the stupid screen on the dash that sucks to use; the HVAC system is a nightmare. Every cool "feature" is actually a dumb gimmick. "Autopilot" is cool to use, but do I trust it? NO. The fit and finish is horrendous. Go get into a Mercedes that has the same switches in it and tell me which one is actually luxury (it's the Mercedes).

I order parts for vehicles for a living and without question Tesla is the worst company to deal with. I can only buy parts direct from them, they take forever, charge ridiculous shipping fees and make zero literature available for repair procedure. If you own a Tesla and take it to an independent for repair, you're an idiot, because Tesla doesn't even have to sell their parts for wholesale prices to repair facilities, so you're paying retail + markup for Tesla parts at my shop.

ALL THAT SAID, every Tesla I've driven has put a gigantic smile on my face because they're fast as fuck and fun as shit to drive. As long as Stark doesn't do the stupid shit Tesla does, and add an ability to make the Varg sound like a car from the Jetsons or some shit, and the bike performs like a Tesla with two wheels, the second you ride one you'll understand.

disbanded wrote:

I've heard that the fit and finish is bad on teslas. What exactly do you see that is bad with the finish? Just curious...

SteezGeez wrote:

I own a 2020 Model X but have driven some older models and can say things have improved. I'd say though that some panel gaps aren't...

I own a 2020 Model X but have driven some older models and can say things have improved.

I'd say though that some panel gaps aren't perfectly aligned and the overall feel isn't Mercedes but idk why Jason wants to bash them so hard. However, as he pointed out, even my electric hating friends love to ride in the Tesla for all the power it has. Does it have short comings? Totally. I feel like most people hate electric more out of fear of losing there ICE vehicles rather than there actual performance.

Robgvx wrote:

I’m all for a clutch. An electric bike may have maximum torque at zero revs, but with a clutch you have instantaneous power without moving your...

I’m all for a clutch. An electric bike may have maximum torque at zero revs, but with a clutch you have instantaneous power without moving your wrist. When I’m cranked over in a sandy berm and need more ooomph to pick the bike up I want to achieve that with a minute movement of my finger, not by having to rotate my wrist and forearm.

I also wonder what happens when you hit the rear brake in the air. I know it can’t stall but does it react the same?

That said, I’ve never ridden an electric bike so I’m happy to change my opinion if I ever get to ride one.

#434 wrote:

Sure! Rear wheal stop and as a counter reaction the front end of the bike drops. Why would it be different?

Robgvx wrote:

I don’t know. I haven’t ridden one. However, with a gas engine the engine is still rotating when the clutch is pulled in, even if the...

I don’t know. I haven’t ridden one.

However, with a gas engine the engine is still rotating when the clutch is pulled in, even if the rear wheel is not. With electric, everything stops when you hit the back brake. Surely that additional rotating energy has to add to (or maybe subtract from?) the rotational inertia transferred to the bike in flight.

fs wrote:

With an electric bike the throttle/brake can have a significantly greater impact on the bikes position in the air than with ICE. The main reason is...

With an electric bike the throttle/brake can have a significantly greater impact on the bikes position in the air than with ICE. The main reason is that the rear wheel can hit max speed without the rider shifting through the gears. In raw form it is actually difficult to control and you need software to tame it a little bit. At first riders find the level of control a bit "too much" but adapt quickly and with time tend to prefer it to ICE. On the Varg that will all be tunable with fine grained control.

Robgvx wrote:

That’s an interesting reply. In my experience it’s torque/acceleration of the rear wheel when airborne that makes the front wheel lift, not wheel speed. However, I...

That’s an interesting reply. In my experience it’s torque/acceleration of the rear wheel when airborne that makes the front wheel lift, not wheel speed. However, I also get that having ‘access’ to maximum wheel speed without shifting might come into the equation. However, my views come from experience of racing, not from a physics degree!

I’m sure it would be interesting to ride one for myself.

Do you work for Stark?

fs wrote:

You are correct, the torque dictates how fast the font wheel "lifts". However, once you hit top speed the rear can no longer accelerate and the...

You are correct, the torque dictates how fast the font wheel "lifts". However, once you hit top speed the rear can no longer accelerate and the front will stop lifting. So torque controls how fast it lifts, and the difference in RPM how much you can lift the front. In both cases electric gives you more. There is about 80Nm at the motor shaft, then a 3.5 reduction to the front sprocket giving 280Nm at the front sprocket.

I am the most senior guy on the electronics team.

Edit: Alta according to Nate Adams:

Another thing I noticed on my first day on the bike was how much the throttle affected the bike while in the air. Its awesome! I’d say it lifts the front end of the bike twice as well as a conventional bike! If you catch a funky kick on a take-off lip that kicks your rear-end up there is no need to panic. Give ‘er some throttle and the rotation of that rear wheel will bring the front end right up. Think about it, theres no gears in the Redshift. Its like you are always in 5th gear and there is never a bog, delay or lag in power…When you panic rev in the air and that rear wheel can spin as absolutely fast as that bike can make it go, your front end will come up!

http://lokomagazine.com/first-impressions-nate-adams-talks-hitting-ramp…

keinz wrote:

Welcome to the future my fellow Vitards

fs wrote:

You are correct, the torque dictates how fast the font wheel "lifts". However, once you hit top speed the rear can no longer accelerate and the...

You are correct, the torque dictates how fast the font wheel "lifts". However, once you hit top speed the rear can no longer accelerate and the front will stop lifting. So torque controls how fast it lifts, and the difference in RPM how much you can lift the front. In both cases electric gives you more. There is about 80Nm at the motor shaft, then a 3.5 reduction to the front sprocket giving 280Nm at the front sprocket.

I am the most senior guy on the electronics team.

Edit: Alta according to Nate Adams:

Another thing I noticed on my first day on the bike was how much the throttle affected the bike while in the air. Its awesome! I’d say it lifts the front end of the bike twice as well as a conventional bike! If you catch a funky kick on a take-off lip that kicks your rear-end up there is no need to panic. Give ‘er some throttle and the rotation of that rear wheel will bring the front end right up. Think about it, theres no gears in the Redshift. Its like you are always in 5th gear and there is never a bog, delay or lag in power…When you panic rev in the air and that rear wheel can spin as absolutely fast as that bike can make it go, your front end will come up!

http://lokomagazine.com/first-impressions-nate-adams-talks-hitting-ramp…

Robgvx wrote:

Thank you. So, basic question, how is it that an electric bike can manage 0-70mph (or whatever) without a range of gears. What quality of an...

Thank you.

So, basic question, how is it that an electric bike can manage 0-70mph (or whatever) without a range of gears. What quality of an electric motor allows it to accomplish that in one gear?

TooTallJason wrote:

Because as someone who works in the Automotive industry I hate dealing with Tesla. They don't play by any of the same rules that other manufacturers...

Because as someone who works in the Automotive industry I hate dealing with Tesla. They don't play by any of the same rules that other manufacturers do regarding parts and service. Out in California it may not be an issue, but here in Denver, I cannot buy parts from a Tesla service center. Even if they're on a shelf in their "service" department, I've got to buy it from the Tesla headquarters in California and ship it in, even if it's small things they have in bulk like screws or body connectors. This goes whether or not your shop is Tesla "approved" or even recommended for body work.

And as great as your Tesla may be I've been in multiple 2020 or newer Model 3s that sound like they have road noise levels I'd expect out of a 90's Kia. Like I said I love driving them, but I find so much of the car extraneous and dumb. Give me a reason a car needs music production software or a whoopee cushion feature? Your Model X also has a gauge cluster in the traditional position, while the Model 3 and Y center screen is an abomination and it's good that those cars have so many safety nannies because that screen is awful to use for any vital vehicle information.

You as a Tesla owner may feel that I'm wrong, but I've driven literally thousands of cars in the past 10 years and hundreds of Teslas. My opinion isn't something formulated from internet articles or twitter, it's a decade in the used car business both in sales and service. Please don't take it personal; I had a friend of 20+ friends decide to cut me out of his life because I explained my views on Tesla when he sold his Tundra last year to wait for a Cybertruck. Here we are over a year later and he still doesn't have a Cybertruck, and neither does anyone else.

My opinion on Tesla is what it is, but I still want an electric bike when I replace my KTM.

fs wrote:

You are correct, the torque dictates how fast the font wheel "lifts". However, once you hit top speed the rear can no longer accelerate and the...

You are correct, the torque dictates how fast the font wheel "lifts". However, once you hit top speed the rear can no longer accelerate and the front will stop lifting. So torque controls how fast it lifts, and the difference in RPM how much you can lift the front. In both cases electric gives you more. There is about 80Nm at the motor shaft, then a 3.5 reduction to the front sprocket giving 280Nm at the front sprocket.

I am the most senior guy on the electronics team.

Edit: Alta according to Nate Adams:

Another thing I noticed on my first day on the bike was how much the throttle affected the bike while in the air. Its awesome! I’d say it lifts the front end of the bike twice as well as a conventional bike! If you catch a funky kick on a take-off lip that kicks your rear-end up there is no need to panic. Give ‘er some throttle and the rotation of that rear wheel will bring the front end right up. Think about it, theres no gears in the Redshift. Its like you are always in 5th gear and there is never a bog, delay or lag in power…When you panic rev in the air and that rear wheel can spin as absolutely fast as that bike can make it go, your front end will come up!

http://lokomagazine.com/first-impressions-nate-adams-talks-hitting-ramp…

Robgvx wrote:

Thank you. So, basic question, how is it that an electric bike can manage 0-70mph (or whatever) without a range of gears. What quality of an...

Thank you.

So, basic question, how is it that an electric bike can manage 0-70mph (or whatever) without a range of gears. What quality of an electric motor allows it to accomplish that in one gear?

wfopete wrote:

My biggest concern of the Stark is how quickly the tech is evolving. These electric motors are getting more compact and power is going off the...

My biggest concern of the Stark is how quickly the tech is evolving. These electric motors are getting more compact and power is going off the charts. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2022 Stark motor was considered "Old School" in a year. I can see the E-bike tech rivaling the suspension revolution wars of the late 70's-80's.

wfopete wrote:

My biggest concern of the Stark is how quickly the tech is evolving. These electric motors are getting more compact and power is going off the...

My biggest concern of the Stark is how quickly the tech is evolving. These electric motors are getting more compact and power is going off the charts. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2022 Stark motor was considered "Old School" in a year. I can see the E-bike tech rivaling the suspension revolution wars of the late 70's-80's.

soggy wrote:

If the biggest concern is that they are going to make a better bike in a year or two I think we can all agree that’s...

If the biggest concern is that they are going to make a better bike in a year or two I think we can all agree that’s not really a concern but a good thing

wfopete wrote:

My biggest concern of the Stark is how quickly the tech is evolving. These electric motors are getting more compact and power is going off the...

My biggest concern of the Stark is how quickly the tech is evolving. These electric motors are getting more compact and power is going off the charts. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2022 Stark motor was considered "Old School" in a year. I can see the E-bike tech rivaling the suspension revolution wars of the late 70's-80's.

wfopete wrote:

My biggest concern of the Stark is how quickly the tech is evolving. These electric motors are getting more compact and power is going off the...

My biggest concern of the Stark is how quickly the tech is evolving. These electric motors are getting more compact and power is going off the charts. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2022 Stark motor was considered "Old School" in a year. I can see the E-bike tech rivaling the suspension revolution wars of the late 70's-80's.

8500rpm wrote:

I kinda agree... then again, does it really hurt you but your ego? It's tech, kids (before covid & chips shortage) were playing on their Nvidia...

I kinda agree... then again, does it really hurt you but your ego?

It's tech, kids (before covid & chips shortage) were playing on their Nvidia equipped gaming rigs and had to upgrade to competitive fps (frame per second) at least every two years to stay competitive... or did they have to?

Todays EV/Electric tech is great but maybe it can be much better in 3years? Is cash king, buying power king? Who has the best mobile phone or best EV? I guess those who could afford to the latest version, right?


Then again, I think it's great. Stark Varg is great... the whole evolution but it's not going to be friction free...

...and like I mentioned in other posts, I've owned a KTM electric, it was a great playbike but not a motocross racer.... maybe the Varg is?

soggy wrote:

If the biggest concern is that they are going to make a better bike in a year or two I think we can all agree that’s...

If the biggest concern is that they are going to make a better bike in a year or two I think we can all agree that’s not really a concern but a good thing

soggy wrote:

If the biggest concern is that they are going to make a better bike in a year or two I think we can all agree that’s...

If the biggest concern is that they are going to make a better bike in a year or two I think we can all agree that’s not really a concern but a good thing

scott_nz wrote:

To me the biggest fear and what stopped me ordering one is they go tits up like Alta did and spares / support are not there...

To me the biggest fear and what stopped me ordering one is they go tits up like Alta did and spares / support are not there

The first big brand that releases a electric bike will kill it like Yamaha did with the yz400

vitalriderCrf wrote:

[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/02/04/532155/s1200_E8E5B457_EED0_4D16_8D76_A8F704A82821.jpg[/img]

fs wrote:

You are correct, the torque dictates how fast the font wheel "lifts". However, once you hit top speed the rear can no longer accelerate and the...

You are correct, the torque dictates how fast the font wheel "lifts". However, once you hit top speed the rear can no longer accelerate and the front will stop lifting. So torque controls how fast it lifts, and the difference in RPM how much you can lift the front. In both cases electric gives you more. There is about 80Nm at the motor shaft, then a 3.5 reduction to the front sprocket giving 280Nm at the front sprocket.

I am the most senior guy on the electronics team.

Edit: Alta according to Nate Adams:

Another thing I noticed on my first day on the bike was how much the throttle affected the bike while in the air. Its awesome! I’d say it lifts the front end of the bike twice as well as a conventional bike! If you catch a funky kick on a take-off lip that kicks your rear-end up there is no need to panic. Give ‘er some throttle and the rotation of that rear wheel will bring the front end right up. Think about it, theres no gears in the Redshift. Its like you are always in 5th gear and there is never a bog, delay or lag in power…When you panic rev in the air and that rear wheel can spin as absolutely fast as that bike can make it go, your front end will come up!

http://lokomagazine.com/first-impressions-nate-adams-talks-hitting-ramp…

#434 wrote:

I think, and I‘m not sure, that the slippery finger has something to with who the cells are mounted in the casing. The casing has milled...

I think, and I‘m not sure, that the slippery finger has something to with who the cells are mounted in the casing. The casing has milled out holes for each cell. That way they are very securely mounted and can dissipate heat easily to the casing.
I don’t know the battery pack of the Alta was built, but a big problem was that the pack overheated.

The pressure relief is needed when the battery heats up and the air inside expands. I think it’s cool that the Varg is completely waterproof.

Larry450 wrote:

Yep. I got that from message from the videos as well. But would you call it "slippery fingers"? Where the fingers? And why are they slippery...

Yep. I got that from message from the videos as well. But would you call it "slippery fingers"? Where the fingers? And why are they slippery? Any info on voltage of the battery? Maybe I am just an idiot but there might some cool tech that Stark is not telling us at least not yet.

Here is video some guy disassembling alta battery. Those cells in middle of pack must have been running hot hot hot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BoWQ54NpU0&ab_channel=SheaNyquist

fs wrote:

The bottoms of the cells are held by the magnesium allow case. When the cells are inserted they are not perfectly vertical. There is a plastic...

The bottoms of the cells are held by the magnesium allow case. When the cells are inserted they are not perfectly vertical. There is a plastic part which is then placed on top that covers and holds the tops of the cells. The fingers are a clever design that guides the cell tops into the holes -- this allows quick assembly of the battery while keeping the mass penalty low. Two mirror image halves are made like this and then mated together.

There are 400 21700 cells in the pack, 100s4p.

PJRAUS wrote:

I have no concerns about obsolescence. It would seem, especially watching their test riders in the videos, that it already performs way past what my level...

I have no concerns about obsolescence. It would seem, especially watching their test riders in the videos, that it already performs way past what my level of ability requires . I figure the main area of upgrading will be in battery performance and battery weight. I would think it possible, perhaps even likely, that when they make a leap forward in battery performance and weight, they would be available as a retro fit to the first models..

But if they have their chassis and suspension right from the get go..I dont see any major upgrades coming quickly there.
Motor?? Well with gas bikes they are always chasing more or more refined power..with the emx bike..this would seem to be achieved more with battery and processor software...
I just think..when big manufacturers enter the market, the competition between them will be focused on range, weight and price point primarily..after that probably suspension and handling characteristics..
In theory at least...the motor on the emx bike should last several years without much maintenance or repairs...
How many riders buy a new gas bike mainly because their old one has so many hours up ,they are looking at $$$$ to keep it in top shape..
It may turn out to be that emx bike owners keep thier bikes 5 years or more ..
If that turns out to be the case, then the ongong market for new bikes wont be near as big as a partiular model of gas bike...
Once everyone has their emx bike...sales year on end might slow up quite a lot
Anyway the stark will mean the freedom for me to ride at home whenever I like...I dont think I will feel a need to upgrade to a new model for a long time

#434 wrote:

Thanks for the Info! Was wondering what kinda cells are used. 21700 typically has 5 Ah of capacity which equals to 2000 Ah with 400 cells...

Thanks for the Info! Was wondering what kinda cells are used.
21700 typically has 5 Ah of capacity which equals to 2000 Ah with 400 cells. At a cell voltage of 3.7 V this equals to 7.4 kWh. So you guys are pretty conservative saying the battery has 6 kWh.