STARK FUTURE VARG - An Electric Bike that is Faster and Lighter than a 450?

Bruce372
Profile picture for user Bruce372
Posts
6329
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
Bruce372 12/21/2021 6:55am
12/21/2021 6:55am
Silas444 wrote:
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However...
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However, your back-and-forth has left me frothing at the mouth for someone to either return this thread to some semblance of relevancy or post a picture of a bear and put me out of this misery.

Since the latter didn't happen, I'll attempt the former: what if the opposite was true regarding where we are now? What if we all currently rode electric bikes and someone invented a modern-day ICE 450 overnight and debuted it for us to consider and possibly purchase.

What would be the selling points of it?

"Hey fellas, no more hearing yourself talk while you ride - this thing is so loud you can hear it for MILES!!!!"
"Hey guys, no more amateur hour - this new bike will force a rider to master a CLUTCH to go fast!!!"
"This bike can blow up on a jump face, so you'll spend fun time in your garage with oily wrenches preventing that!!!"
"Spending money on your suspension making your bike plush? Forget that!!! You can spend it all on a new PIPE!!!"
"Tired of going home without impressive blisters? You can ride this beast for 8 hours straight and RUIN your hands!!!"
"Ever heard the term "Arm Pump?" You will now!!!!
"Who needs an infinitely customizable power curve? Toughen yourself up, get what you get, and just LUMP IT!!!

Say what you will, I somehow doubt they'd sell 800 of them overnight. Sometimes, if you turn a situation around, the points you're arguing against become a bit less compelling, no?
This is a great article on the scenario that we had electric cars and someone invented gas engines.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829
DA498
Profile picture for user DA498
Posts
1646
Joined
10/11/2008
Location
Milliken, CO US
DA498 12/21/2021 7:06am
12/21/2021 7:06am
I dont drive my car, truck or motorcycle giving one shit about thermal efficiency. WTH?
9
SilverSpurs
Profile picture for user SilverSpurs
Posts
560
Joined
2/5/2021
Location
Sarasota, FL US
SilverSpurs 12/21/2021 7:22am
12/21/2021 7:22am Edited Date/Time 12/21/2021 7:25am
Silas444 wrote:
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However...
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However, your back-and-forth has left me frothing at the mouth for someone to either return this thread to some semblance of relevancy or post a picture of a bear and put me out of this misery.

Since the latter didn't happen, I'll attempt the former: what if the opposite was true regarding where we are now? What if we all currently rode electric bikes and someone invented a modern-day ICE 450 overnight and debuted it for us to consider and possibly purchase.

What would be the selling points of it?

"Hey fellas, no more hearing yourself talk while you ride - this thing is so loud you can hear it for MILES!!!!"
"Hey guys, no more amateur hour - this new bike will force a rider to master a CLUTCH to go fast!!!"
"This bike can blow up on a jump face, so you'll spend fun time in your garage with oily wrenches preventing that!!!"
"Spending money on your suspension making your bike plush? Forget that!!! You can spend it all on a new PIPE!!!"
"Tired of going home without impressive blisters? You can ride this beast for 8 hours straight and RUIN your hands!!!"
"Ever heard the term "Arm Pump?" You will now!!!!
"Who needs an infinitely customizable power curve? Toughen yourself up, get what you get, and just LUMP IT!!!

Say what you will, I somehow doubt they'd sell 800 of them overnight. Sometimes, if you turn a situation around, the points you're arguing against become a bit less compelling, no?
Most would say the visceral vibrating feelings of a powerful IC engine make it feel like you are having sex with a maddie, while eating and smelling your favourite food and as the engine gets on song, playing a very manly musical instrument- like a military bugle.

Also the electric bicycle, or motor cycle has been around for a very long time. ;-)

They are a bit newer than steam powered motorbikes- but electric motorcycles are about 3 years older- the first in 1881 apparently- than gasoline fuel bikes which date from about 1884.

So your inversion was a nice device but sort of turns the spotlight rather brightly on the fact that there has been 140 years or so of continuous electric motorcycle development alongside gasoline powered, and they are still regarded as an impractical curiosity.


https://thevintagent.com/dev/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/1881.History-of…
12
wfopete
Profile picture for user wfopete
Posts
481
Joined
7/27/2015
Location
Dover, AR US
wfopete 12/21/2021 7:24am
12/21/2021 7:24am
Yeah, why don't they list Thermal Efficiency on any of the spec sheets?
3

The Shop

See All »
sanders7261 12/21/2021 8:09am
12/21/2021 8:09am
Silas444 wrote:
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However...
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However, your back-and-forth has left me frothing at the mouth for someone to either return this thread to some semblance of relevancy or post a picture of a bear and put me out of this misery.

Since the latter didn't happen, I'll attempt the former: what if the opposite was true regarding where we are now? What if we all currently rode electric bikes and someone invented a modern-day ICE 450 overnight and debuted it for us to consider and possibly purchase.

What would be the selling points of it?

"Hey fellas, no more hearing yourself talk while you ride - this thing is so loud you can hear it for MILES!!!!"
"Hey guys, no more amateur hour - this new bike will force a rider to master a CLUTCH to go fast!!!"
"This bike can blow up on a jump face, so you'll spend fun time in your garage with oily wrenches preventing that!!!"
"Spending money on your suspension making your bike plush? Forget that!!! You can spend it all on a new PIPE!!!"
"Tired of going home without impressive blisters? You can ride this beast for 8 hours straight and RUIN your hands!!!"
"Ever heard the term "Arm Pump?" You will now!!!!
"Who needs an infinitely customizable power curve? Toughen yourself up, get what you get, and just LUMP IT!!!

Say what you will, I somehow doubt they'd sell 800 of them overnight. Sometimes, if you turn a situation around, the points you're arguing against become a bit less compelling, no?
.....aaaaaaand, I'm out. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said I was hesitant to join in: An emotional response void of solid, factual arguments. Anyone can make a "list" that could counter all of these statements and add some that IC engines have over electric and both lists would just be opinion. I jumped into this forum topic looking for some solid answers, but I guess that was foolish on my part as everything is just speculation right now, and I guess I just have to wait...I HATE waiting. In all honesty, my involvement was ended when Early said it best...You're entry into the niche might be a ways off. I just listened to Sébastien Tortelli's PulpMX podcast and I think he answered my range question. He mentioned having ridden an Alta in the past and got about 25 minutes on it, and he felt something like 35 minutes would be more likely on the Varg. That's not a significant enough increase in runtime. Sidenote, Matthes saying "like way more time" was pretty ridiculous unless he has some kind of inside info that Tortelli doesn't, which seems very unlikely. Sounded more like hyperbole to me.

Anyway, everyone who put money down on a Varg I truly hope you like your purchase when it arrives! We all want to enjoy our time riding and we should all be happy we live in a time that it's possible to do so on BOTH amazing pieces of modern technology. Motocross on any platform is better than playing horseshoes or hide the thimbal!!
3
1
bents 12/21/2021 8:51am
12/21/2021 8:51am
This thread has been both highly educational and emotional. No sarcasm intended-there are some really smart people in this forum and I have learned a bunch while taking the emotional part out. All good. Tortelli's run time and mine, I have to imagine, will end up far different, just like his gas mileage (for lack of a better term) would be much worse than mine also. I understand that run time will not equal an IC for quite some time, but I choose not to wait until that happens. Unless red flags abound over the next few months about this bike then I'm excited to ride this new tech, plus I am on the clock, turning 59 in a month, so I need to ride while I am physically able.
12
Broseph
Profile picture for user Broseph
Posts
1188
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA US
Broseph 12/21/2021 8:55am
12/21/2021 8:55am
Silas444 wrote:
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However...
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However, your back-and-forth has left me frothing at the mouth for someone to either return this thread to some semblance of relevancy or post a picture of a bear and put me out of this misery.

Since the latter didn't happen, I'll attempt the former: what if the opposite was true regarding where we are now? What if we all currently rode electric bikes and someone invented a modern-day ICE 450 overnight and debuted it for us to consider and possibly purchase.

What would be the selling points of it?

"Hey fellas, no more hearing yourself talk while you ride - this thing is so loud you can hear it for MILES!!!!"
"Hey guys, no more amateur hour - this new bike will force a rider to master a CLUTCH to go fast!!!"
"This bike can blow up on a jump face, so you'll spend fun time in your garage with oily wrenches preventing that!!!"
"Spending money on your suspension making your bike plush? Forget that!!! You can spend it all on a new PIPE!!!"
"Tired of going home without impressive blisters? You can ride this beast for 8 hours straight and RUIN your hands!!!"
"Ever heard the term "Arm Pump?" You will now!!!!
"Who needs an infinitely customizable power curve? Toughen yourself up, get what you get, and just LUMP IT!!!

Say what you will, I somehow doubt they'd sell 800 of them overnight. Sometimes, if you turn a situation around, the points you're arguing against become a bit less compelling, no?
sanders7261 wrote:
.....aaaaaaand, I'm out. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said I was hesitant to join in: An emotional response void of solid...
.....aaaaaaand, I'm out. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said I was hesitant to join in: An emotional response void of solid, factual arguments. Anyone can make a "list" that could counter all of these statements and add some that IC engines have over electric and both lists would just be opinion. I jumped into this forum topic looking for some solid answers, but I guess that was foolish on my part as everything is just speculation right now, and I guess I just have to wait...I HATE waiting. In all honesty, my involvement was ended when Early said it best...You're entry into the niche might be a ways off. I just listened to Sébastien Tortelli's PulpMX podcast and I think he answered my range question. He mentioned having ridden an Alta in the past and got about 25 minutes on it, and he felt something like 35 minutes would be more likely on the Varg. That's not a significant enough increase in runtime. Sidenote, Matthes saying "like way more time" was pretty ridiculous unless he has some kind of inside info that Tortelli doesn't, which seems very unlikely. Sounded more like hyperbole to me.

Anyway, everyone who put money down on a Varg I truly hope you like your purchase when it arrives! We all want to enjoy our time riding and we should all be happy we live in a time that it's possible to do so on BOTH amazing pieces of modern technology. Motocross on any platform is better than playing horseshoes or hide the thimbal!!
Going from 25 min to 35 min would be a 40% increase in runtime. Still not setting any records compared to gas, but sure seems like a big step forward considering we're only a few years removed from Alta’s development.
1
sanders7261 12/21/2021 10:22am
12/21/2021 10:22am
Broseph wrote:
Going from 25 min to 35 min would be a 40% increase in runtime. Still not setting any records compared to gas, but sure seems like...
Going from 25 min to 35 min would be a 40% increase in runtime. Still not setting any records compared to gas, but sure seems like a big step forward considering we're only a few years removed from Alta’s development.
That is very true, a 40% increase is impressive in a short span of time. And of course I wasn't comparing myself to ex MX/SX pro speed, there's no chance of that happening! I was simply comparing that to current Alta users results and figuring that a bike that does 10 more minutes even at pro speed probably still isn't quite there for an all day open practice for me....but that's the catch, see? That's ME, it might be great for someone else...to each there own. Glad we all have options!
1
Broseph
Profile picture for user Broseph
Posts
1188
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA US
Broseph 12/21/2021 10:29am
12/21/2021 10:29am
Broseph wrote:
Going from 25 min to 35 min would be a 40% increase in runtime. Still not setting any records compared to gas, but sure seems like...
Going from 25 min to 35 min would be a 40% increase in runtime. Still not setting any records compared to gas, but sure seems like a big step forward considering we're only a few years removed from Alta’s development.
sanders7261 wrote:
That is very true, a 40% increase is impressive in a short span of time. And of course I wasn't comparing myself to ex MX/SX pro...
That is very true, a 40% increase is impressive in a short span of time. And of course I wasn't comparing myself to ex MX/SX pro speed, there's no chance of that happening! I was simply comparing that to current Alta users results and figuring that a bike that does 10 more minutes even at pro speed probably still isn't quite there for an all day open practice for me....but that's the catch, see? That's ME, it might be great for someone else...to each there own. Glad we all have options!
I hear you. The range isn’t there yet for me either (we’re a long ways off from an electric bike handling a 2-3hr offroad race). But it’s cool to see the progression. And dang what a cool play bike this thing would be. Just dreaming of course.
1
SilverSpurs
Profile picture for user SilverSpurs
Posts
560
Joined
2/5/2021
Location
Sarasota, FL US
SilverSpurs 12/21/2021 11:22am
12/21/2021 11:22am
DA498 wrote:
I dont drive my car, truck or motorcycle giving one shit about thermal efficiency. WTH?
No, you don't have to because it's fueled by diesel or gasoline..

If it was electric it's range would be a constant issue and a battery replacement would possibly write it off.
13
Stewyeww
Profile picture for user Stewyeww
Posts
340
Joined
2/6/2021
Location
AU
Stewyeww 12/21/2021 11:50am
12/21/2021 11:50am
Be super cool if you guys just agreed to disagree and move on.
15
1
Silas444
Profile picture for user Silas444
Posts
637
Joined
5/23/2015
Location
Mid-state, ME US
Silas444 12/21/2021 1:35pm
12/21/2021 1:35pm Edited Date/Time 12/21/2021 1:46pm
Stewyeww wrote:
Be super cool if you guys just agreed to disagree and move on.
I completely agree, but can all the buzzkillers and the Doubting-Thomases and the sex-starved, tantric-state, exhaust-note love-makers start their own thread about how electric bikes are nothing more than an (and I quote) "Impractical curiosity"? Either that, or they could start a thread about the all-new, world-changing, ICE KTMs that were just unveiled (to the sound of crickets), or maybe one about that comparison posted up about two 300 two-smokers (their term, not mine). I mean hey, there's hardly been a word said about either, so surely the fruit is ripe there.

If they could contentedly wander off, then those of us that see this revolutionary bike as something worth embracing can start their own thread as well, and we can speak of our optimistic perceptions of a bright, lusty future rife with possibility, and we can do so without hecklers chucking aspersions at us from the cheap seats about our unrelenting gullibility.


My apologies if my post sounded too (and I quote) "emotional." I'm just that kind of guy, I guess, as things I care about tend to matter to me. I know, I know - weird.

5
5
prozach
Profile picture for user prozach
Posts
1251
Joined
7/1/2008
Location
Eureka, CA US
prozach 12/21/2021 2:36pm
12/21/2021 2:36pm
I'd rather have it weigh slightly more than a 450 and get better range, then be lighter with a more limited range. But maybe that is just me. Looks pretty sweet though. Especially for people with property.
2
1
byke
Profile picture for user byke
Posts
2952
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA US
byke 12/21/2021 2:42pm
12/21/2021 2:42pm
Oh snap, it's prozach. I remember you from the norcalmx forum. Ahhhh the good ol' days.
2
prozach
Profile picture for user prozach
Posts
1251
Joined
7/1/2008
Location
Eureka, CA US
prozach 12/21/2021 2:55pm
12/21/2021 2:55pm
byke wrote:
Oh snap, it's prozach. I remember you from the norcalmx forum. Ahhhh the good ol' days.
Some good peeps on that forum back then!
1
byke
Profile picture for user byke
Posts
2952
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA US
byke 12/21/2021 2:57pm
12/21/2021 2:57pm
byke wrote:
Oh snap, it's prozach. I remember you from the norcalmx forum. Ahhhh the good ol' days.
prozach wrote:
Some good peeps on that forum back then!
So true. Other than when I was a kid, that was my favorite moto era!
loftyair
Profile picture for user loftyair
Posts
2899
Joined
7/3/2009
Location
riverside, CA US
loftyair 12/21/2021 3:08pm
12/21/2021 3:08pm
If a battery pack was made to be stacked in different sizes, and chargeable in separate or tandem too, that would be sweet. 1 pack per 15 min, use up to 10 packs. Or something like that anyway.
Smerwin43
Profile picture for user Smerwin43
Posts
18
Joined
12/15/2021
Location
Nunya, NV US
Smerwin43 12/21/2021 3:34pm
12/21/2021 3:34pm



Don't want to add to the mindless hype train but videos like these get me super excited.
1

Pit Row

See All »
SilverSpurs
Profile picture for user SilverSpurs
Posts
560
Joined
2/5/2021
Location
Sarasota, FL US
SilverSpurs 12/21/2021 7:50pm
12/21/2021 7:50pm
Stewyeww wrote:
Be super cool if you guys just agreed to disagree and move on.
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick hype. The bikes do not exist.
Pundits are entitled to examine those claims of greatness closely.

Howz about you contribute one way or the other or ignore?
1
25
Broseph
Profile picture for user Broseph
Posts
1188
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA US
Broseph 12/21/2021 8:14pm
12/21/2021 8:14pm

3
wfopete
Profile picture for user wfopete
Posts
481
Joined
7/27/2015
Location
Dover, AR US
wfopete 12/22/2021 5:21am
12/22/2021 5:21am
SilverSpurs wrote:
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick...
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick hype. The bikes do not exist.
Pundits are entitled to examine those claims of greatness closely.

Howz about you contribute one way or the other or ignore?
This is true and we have 12 months to have the hype turn into real world facts. This bike has generated more interest than any other bike in recent history. Like I said before, it would pay major dividends to have a couple of press days with bikes available for evaluation on a well known track. I have had positive feedback from Stark regarding questions about the bike, parts and service but the keyboard will let anyone type anything. Stark may have designed a great bike but putting that bike into production and being able to support it globally is a different story.
2
soggy
Profile picture for user soggy
Posts
8494
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
UT US
soggy 12/22/2021 5:36am
12/22/2021 5:36am
SilverSpurs wrote:
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick...
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick hype. The bikes do not exist.
Pundits are entitled to examine those claims of greatness closely.

Howz about you contribute one way or the other or ignore?
You should take your own advice and contribute in a meaningful way or ignore.
15
2
holeshot413
Profile picture for user holeshot413
Posts
680
Joined
2/24/2008
Location
Prosperity, SC US
holeshot413 12/22/2021 9:23am
12/22/2021 9:23am
Stewyeww wrote:
Be super cool if you guys just agreed to disagree and move on.
SilverSpurs wrote:
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick...
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick hype. The bikes do not exist.
Pundits are entitled to examine those claims of greatness closely.

Howz about you contribute one way or the other or ignore?
Cannondale
1
Stewyeww
Profile picture for user Stewyeww
Posts
340
Joined
2/6/2021
Location
AU
Stewyeww 12/22/2021 11:21am
12/22/2021 11:21am
SilverSpurs wrote:
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick...
This bike with the funny name is being sold as the best MX bike ever. There is no evidence offered except paid for opinion and slick hype. The bikes do not exist.
Pundits are entitled to examine those claims of greatness closely.

Howz about you contribute one way or the other or ignore?
Feel free to scroll back through the pages and find my contribution........
1
sandtrack315
Profile picture for user sandtrack315
Posts
2827
Joined
7/19/2013
Location
Philadelphia, PA US
sandtrack315 12/22/2021 11:33am
12/22/2021 11:33am
My take on range is that most people should set it at around 250-300cc power, can probably get around an hour at the pace most people ride. I just need enough juice to get me from the truck to the sand pit I ride (about a mile), do a 35 minute moto at 250F power, and then get back to my truck. I also want it to charge in under 30 minutes. I can do two 35 minute motos in the same amount of time I do it on my 250F. It seems like it can do this.

I probably will never buy a Stark bike, but I love that they are pushing the technology forward. My hope is that, in 3-5 years, I can choose between V2 of the Stark, and something electric from the Japanese OEMs.
1
Leave Us To
Profile picture for user Leave Us To
Posts
1141
Joined
10/21/2015
Location
Rocky River, OH US
Leave Us To 12/22/2021 12:07pm
12/22/2021 12:07pm
Looks promising but will hold my excitement when there are more than two motorcycles available.
4
Fog 25
Profile picture for user Fog 25
Posts
180
Joined
6/25/2016
Location
Castaic, CA US
Fantasy
882nd
Fog 25 12/22/2021 6:28pm
12/22/2021 6:28pm
Not to be a Endo here. I’ve been riding the best E motocross bike that’s available now for the last four years a Alta MXR. Probably the best motorcycle that I’ve owned in 53 years of riding and racing. If the stark ever is available to the general public and it meets the hype then I will purchase one.
Ask the richest man on the planet where is the E truck? I guess all those deposits went to the rocket to space.
3
mbw479
Profile picture for user mbw479
Posts
523
Joined
12/5/2021
Location
Daytona, FL US
mbw479 12/22/2021 6:41pm
12/22/2021 6:41pm
Do you think these things would pull a 38t rear sprocket?
Leave Us To
Profile picture for user Leave Us To
Posts
1141
Joined
10/21/2015
Location
Rocky River, OH US
Leave Us To 12/23/2021 4:14am
12/23/2021 4:14am
Fog 25 wrote:
Not to be a Endo here. I’ve been riding the best E motocross bike that’s available now for the last four years a Alta MXR. Probably...
Not to be a Endo here. I’ve been riding the best E motocross bike that’s available now for the last four years a Alta MXR. Probably the best motorcycle that I’ve owned in 53 years of riding and racing. If the stark ever is available to the general public and it meets the hype then I will purchase one.
Ask the richest man on the planet where is the E truck? I guess all those deposits went to the rocket to space.
How much more life does your battery have? How much to replace? What type of riding have you used your Alta for?

Post a reply to: STARK FUTURE VARG - An Electric Bike that is Faster and Lighter than a 450?