Roczen and Ferrandis lost points?

Kawboy14!
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Kawboy14!
Edited Date/Time 7/7/2021 8:35am
They both jumped on the medic flag did they get busted? I was at the race so no one said anything there
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Mavetism
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Mavetism 7/3/2021 2:39pm
7/3/2021 2:39pm
Ferrandis lost one, Kenny lost two points.
yz133rider
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yz133rider 7/3/2021 2:44pm
7/3/2021 2:44pm
Anyone else think it’s insane how inconsistent they are with the penalties?


Well you jumped this far so it’s 1 point, and well you jumped this far so it’s 2 points.
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philG
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philG 7/3/2021 2:47pm
7/3/2021 2:47pm Edited Date/Time 7/3/2021 2:54pm
From what i saw on the single replay, one medic flag was halfway round the turn before, so no way Kenny would have seen it being so close to Ferrandis, and the second one was on the top of the landing side of the tabletop..

I wrote this before i go back and rewatch it again, because that is twice as many goes at it as DF and Kenny got, DF had the advantage of being in front, so had a better view.

Flaggers halfway round the turn is dumb.

Now to find a replay


EDIT. So the flagger in the turn was spot on, cant fault him but the flagger on the take off was yellows only , the second medic flag was blind to the riders till they took off.

Rules is rules, but you gotta be on point with the flags to give the guys a chance.

Wheels on the ground HAS to be on the front of the jump.
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Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 7/3/2021 2:49pm
7/3/2021 2:49pm
Why even bother with such minor penalties? Dock them a position if you’re going to do something. One and two points is weak. I was at the race and didn’t see the incident yet.
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ridge
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ridge 7/3/2021 4:37pm
7/3/2021 4:37pm
In all fairness, niether the riders nor the AMA have a clue what the penalty will be until about 3 seconds before they announce it.
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JOE_SPROCKETS#1 7/3/2021 6:23pm
7/3/2021 6:23pm
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
Why even bother with such minor penalties? Dock them a position if you’re going to do something. One and two points is weak. I was at...
Why even bother with such minor penalties? Dock them a position if you’re going to do something. One and two points is weak. I was at the race and didn’t see the incident yet.
Every point counts in a championship battle last time I checked
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jambalaya
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jambalaya 7/3/2021 6:52pm
7/3/2021 6:52pm
Ferrandis should not have been penalized for that
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Kawboy14!
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Kawboy14! 7/3/2021 7:21pm
7/3/2021 7:21pm
They both had a flag in the turn right before the jump and everyone else was clearly rolling it, I was standing right there watching it.
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mwssquad827
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mwssquad827 7/3/2021 7:30pm
7/3/2021 7:30pm
jambalaya wrote:
Ferrandis should not have been penalized for that
His wheels left the ground right?? Per rule he should be penalized🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
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Sully
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Sully 7/3/2021 9:33pm
7/3/2021 9:33pm
philG wrote:
From what i saw on the single replay, one medic flag was halfway round the turn before, so no way Kenny would have seen it being...
From what i saw on the single replay, one medic flag was halfway round the turn before, so no way Kenny would have seen it being so close to Ferrandis, and the second one was on the top of the landing side of the tabletop..

I wrote this before i go back and rewatch it again, because that is twice as many goes at it as DF and Kenny got, DF had the advantage of being in front, so had a better view.

Flaggers halfway round the turn is dumb.

Now to find a replay


EDIT. So the flagger in the turn was spot on, cant fault him but the flagger on the take off was yellows only , the second medic flag was blind to the riders till they took off.

Rules is rules, but you gotta be on point with the flags to give the guys a chance.

Wheels on the ground HAS to be on the front of the jump.
That’s what I saw too. I didn’t notice the flagger in the corner, but the flagger on the jump was 100% blind.
Moto88
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Moto88 7/4/2021 1:49am
7/4/2021 1:49am
To be fair I don’t think DF or Ken saw the Red Cross flag till they were off the lip. As they went by, the Red Cross flagger ran from the end of jump to the front so the rest could see it. No points should have been lost.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 7/4/2021 3:57am
7/4/2021 3:57am
What is the penalty for a rider in 10th, 20th or 40th?

What if the rider has no championship points?
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Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 7/4/2021 5:14am
7/4/2021 5:14am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Every point counts in a championship battle last time I checked
As if I were unaware? When is the last time they docked someone a single point for jumping on a red flag?
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Jordan421
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Jordan421 7/4/2021 5:21am
7/4/2021 5:21am
jambalaya wrote:
Ferrandis should not have been penalized for that
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a table top? Why can’t they protest AMA for being unsafe and not holding the right flags at the right place?
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DC
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DC 7/4/2021 7:33am
7/4/2021 7:33am
jambalaya wrote:
Ferrandis should not have been penalized for that
Jordan421 wrote:
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a...
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a table top? Why can’t they protest AMA for being unsafe and not holding the right flags at the right place?
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
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dkurtd
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dkurtd 7/4/2021 7:45am
7/4/2021 7:45am
jambalaya wrote:
Ferrandis should not have been penalized for that
Jordan421 wrote:
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a...
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a table top? Why can’t they protest AMA for being unsafe and not holding the right flags at the right place?
DC wrote:
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone...
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
Racer X
DC:

I won't argue the point that they did or didn't see the flag, it was there and they both jumped. My only argument would be is why isn't the penalty the same across the board? It shouldn't matter if you jumped 5ft or 50ft, you should be penalized the same. As for the depth of the penalty, one or two points doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent as has been mentioned what penalty does the 30th place rider get? At a minimum a rider should be docked a position, that would be a much more fitting deterrent.
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moto314
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moto314 7/4/2021 8:05am
7/4/2021 8:05am
Rules are rules:
2.10.b

ii. White and Red Stripe Flag (“Wheels on the Ground” Flag) and or Red and White flashing
lights: Indicates a potentially hazardous situation on or near the racetrack in an area that
is not clearly visible to on-coming riders. Riders must proceed with extreme caution. Both
wheels of the motorcycle must remain on the ground over obstacles until the rider has
passed the area of concern. Passing is NOT allowed. This flag and or flashing red and
white lights takes precedence over all other flags that may be displayed. Penalty for
violation of the flag is loss of one championship point for every 20 feet of air jumped.
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dkurtd
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dkurtd 7/4/2021 8:09am
7/4/2021 8:09am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2021 4:31pm
moto314 wrote:
[b]Rules are rules:[/b] 2.10.b ii. White and Red Stripe Flag (“Wheels on the Ground” Flag) and or Red and White flashing lights: Indicates a potentially hazardous...
Rules are rules:
2.10.b

ii. White and Red Stripe Flag (“Wheels on the Ground” Flag) and or Red and White flashing
lights: Indicates a potentially hazardous situation on or near the racetrack in an area that
is not clearly visible to on-coming riders. Riders must proceed with extreme caution. Both
wheels of the motorcycle must remain on the ground over obstacles until the rider has
passed the area of concern. Passing is NOT allowed. This flag and or flashing red and
white lights takes precedence over all other flags that may be displayed. Penalty for
violation of the flag is loss of one championship point for every 20 feet of air jumped.
Not sure where you pulled that from but that's not what the latest version says. See the link:
https://mxsp.iscdn.net/2021/05/2414_2021_pro_mx_rules_v7.pdf

ii. White and Red Stripe Flag (“Wheels on the Ground” Flag) and or Red and White flashing
lights: Indicates a potentially hazardous situation on or near the racetrack in an area that
is not clearly visible to on-coming riders. Riders must proceed with extreme caution. Both
wheels of the motorcycle must remain on the ground over obstacles until the rider has
passed the area of concern. Passing is NOT allowed. This flag and or flashing red and
white lights takes precedence over all other flags that may be displayed. Penalty for
violation of the flag may include but not be limited to, loss of championship point(s)
and/or race position(s), as determined by the Race Director.

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sbarrington314 7/4/2021 8:11am
7/4/2021 8:11am
dkurtd wrote:
DC: I won't argue the point that they did or didn't see the flag, it was there and they both jumped. My only argument would be...
DC:

I won't argue the point that they did or didn't see the flag, it was there and they both jumped. My only argument would be is why isn't the penalty the same across the board? It shouldn't matter if you jumped 5ft or 50ft, you should be penalized the same. As for the depth of the penalty, one or two points doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent as has been mentioned what penalty does the 30th place rider get? At a minimum a rider should be docked a position, that would be a much more fitting deterrent.
So someone that made a last ditch effort to slow up should get the same penalty as someone that made no effort to slow up?
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kpiper
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kpiper 7/4/2021 8:15am
7/4/2021 8:15am
DC wrote:
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone...
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
Racer X
Both of them should have been penalized but the 'points' part of it is stupid.

The penalty should be one position in the moto.

I think they both saw the flag but decided to ignore it. Especially Kenny.

And to the people who say, 'they are pros and going so fast they can't see it', that is total BS.
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dkurtd
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dkurtd 7/4/2021 8:17am
7/4/2021 8:17am
dkurtd wrote:
DC: I won't argue the point that they did or didn't see the flag, it was there and they both jumped. My only argument would be...
DC:

I won't argue the point that they did or didn't see the flag, it was there and they both jumped. My only argument would be is why isn't the penalty the same across the board? It shouldn't matter if you jumped 5ft or 50ft, you should be penalized the same. As for the depth of the penalty, one or two points doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent as has been mentioned what penalty does the 30th place rider get? At a minimum a rider should be docked a position, that would be a much more fitting deterrent.
sbarrington314 wrote:
So someone that made a last ditch effort to slow up should get the same penalty as someone that made no effort to slow up?
When the flag is in the previous corner and there should be no reason for a last ditch effort, yes.
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motomike137
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motomike137 7/4/2021 8:21am
7/4/2021 8:21am
jambalaya wrote:
Ferrandis should not have been penalized for that
Jordan421 wrote:
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a...
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a table top? Why can’t they protest AMA for being unsafe and not holding the right flags at the right place?
DC wrote:
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone...
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
Racer X
That flag is right in their face. Penalty should be stiffer imho. Otherwise what is the point?
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TbonesPop
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TbonesPop 7/4/2021 8:22am
7/4/2021 8:22am
jambalaya wrote:
Ferrandis should not have been penalized for that
Jordan421 wrote:
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a...
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a table top? Why can’t they protest AMA for being unsafe and not holding the right flags at the right place?
DC wrote:
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone...
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
Racer X
DC, I could understand how the riders would have been confused yesterday when at race pace. The WOG flag before the corner was pretty early and the other WOG flag was on top of the jump instead of at the approach of the jump. Not excusing it and I agree with the penalties. I agree with how the points were docked as opposed to positions. But the flaggers made that incident difficult. The flagger for the jump should have been on the face or before the jump (not on top of the jump), then there would be absolutely no excuses. When I saw that live, I thought WTF is that flagger doing? Obviously race officials realized something was wrong with how the flaggers handled it because the penalties were pretty minor. That was potentially a very dangerous situation with Dean being down after the landing. The flagger on top of that jump needed a pretty stern butt chewing in my opinion.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 7/4/2021 8:24am
7/4/2021 8:24am
I can finish the series and owe points?

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motomike137
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motomike137 7/4/2021 8:59am
7/4/2021 8:59am
Jordan421 wrote:
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a...
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a table top? Why can’t they protest AMA for being unsafe and not holding the right flags at the right place?
DC wrote:
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone...
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
Racer X
TbonesPop wrote:
DC, I could understand how the riders would have been confused yesterday when at race pace. The WOG flag before the corner was pretty early and...
DC, I could understand how the riders would have been confused yesterday when at race pace. The WOG flag before the corner was pretty early and the other WOG flag was on top of the jump instead of at the approach of the jump. Not excusing it and I agree with the penalties. I agree with how the points were docked as opposed to positions. But the flaggers made that incident difficult. The flagger for the jump should have been on the face or before the jump (not on top of the jump), then there would be absolutely no excuses. When I saw that live, I thought WTF is that flagger doing? Obviously race officials realized something was wrong with how the flaggers handled it because the penalties were pretty minor. That was potentially a very dangerous situation with Dean being down after the landing. The flagger on top of that jump needed a pretty stern butt chewing in my opinion.
If you're going to emphasize one thing while working with these flaggers it's that if there is a rider down on the back side of a jump you need to get to the front/face of the jump and get that flag in their face.
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kpiper
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kpiper 7/4/2021 9:02am
7/4/2021 9:02am
DC wrote:
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone...
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
Racer X
TbonesPop wrote:
DC, I could understand how the riders would have been confused yesterday when at race pace. The WOG flag before the corner was pretty early and...
DC, I could understand how the riders would have been confused yesterday when at race pace. The WOG flag before the corner was pretty early and the other WOG flag was on top of the jump instead of at the approach of the jump. Not excusing it and I agree with the penalties. I agree with how the points were docked as opposed to positions. But the flaggers made that incident difficult. The flagger for the jump should have been on the face or before the jump (not on top of the jump), then there would be absolutely no excuses. When I saw that live, I thought WTF is that flagger doing? Obviously race officials realized something was wrong with how the flaggers handled it because the penalties were pretty minor. That was potentially a very dangerous situation with Dean being down after the landing. The flagger on top of that jump needed a pretty stern butt chewing in my opinion.
motomike137 wrote:
If you're going to emphasize one thing while working with these flaggers it's that if there is a rider down on the back side of a...
If you're going to emphasize one thing while working with these flaggers it's that if there is a rider down on the back side of a jump you need to get to the front/face of the jump and get that flag in their face.
I know someone who 'trains' flaggers at races and he always tells me how they often don't do what they are trained to do.
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DC 7/4/2021 9:46am
7/4/2021 9:46am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2021 9:49am
Jordan421 wrote:
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a...
Neither of them should have been, the flaggers were in horrible spots. How are you going to hold the medic flag towards the middle of a table top? Why can’t they protest AMA for being unsafe and not holding the right flags at the right place?
DC wrote:
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone...
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
Racer X
dkurtd wrote:
DC: I won't argue the point that they did or didn't see the flag, it was there and they both jumped. My only argument would be...
DC:

I won't argue the point that they did or didn't see the flag, it was there and they both jumped. My only argument would be is why isn't the penalty the same across the board? It shouldn't matter if you jumped 5ft or 50ft, you should be penalized the same. As for the depth of the penalty, one or two points doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent as has been mentioned what penalty does the 30th place rider get? At a minimum a rider should be docked a position, that would be a much more fitting deterrent.
I believe if it were 30th place it would probably have to be a position, but in this case you had first and second both jumping, but one guy checked up and the other sent it. I believe the referee thought that penalizing each a spot was too harsh--it would end up giving Plessinger a win that he did not deserve, and five more points

Also consider this: The difference between first and second is three points; the difference between second and third is two. Had each been docked a position, it would have been worse for Dylan, who offense was deemed less. The two points that Roczen was docked were effectively one position, points-wise, without changing the results.

The goal is to keep riders from jumping in places that will endanger downed riders, medics and themselves, not change the results of a race because of a couple of mental mistakes by the two top finishers. It's never going to be perfect for everyone but this system is a heck of a lot better than the one that saw guys getting landed on... I will talk to Jeff Canfield and the others on Tuesday's call to find out more. Also, when each rider apparently saw all of the angles the ref had on video, they accepted the penalties, though Honda did argue that it should be even. The referee begged to differ.

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TbonesPop
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TbonesPop 7/4/2021 9:58am
7/4/2021 9:58am
I'd just like to clarify that my mild irritation with this incident is to be directed at the flagger on top of the jump where riders couldn't see him/her. The penalties handed out were reasonable IMO. My frustration comes from the fact that Dean could have been landed on and more severely hurt. Fortunately nothing happened.
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DC 7/4/2021 10:02am
7/4/2021 10:02am
DC wrote:
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone...
There was a WOG flag being waved going into the corner before the jump, as well as one before the jump. Here's a screen grab someone posted yesterday...



DC
Racer X
kpiper wrote:
Both of them should have been penalized but the 'points' part of it is stupid. The penalty should be one position in the moto. I think...
Both of them should have been penalized but the 'points' part of it is stupid.

The penalty should be one position in the moto.

I think they both saw the flag but decided to ignore it. Especially Kenny.

And to the people who say, 'they are pros and going so fast they can't see it', that is total BS.
One position each would have hurt Ferrandis worse--he would have lost three points to Kenny's two. And he tried to check up. It would have also moved Plessinger up two spots to gain five points. All of that probably came into the referee's decision.

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Post a reply to: Roczen and Ferrandis lost points?