This SX season has ended the conversation

chasetwo79
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chasetwo79
You always hear “Kenny is the fastest rider, he just melts mentally”.

That excuse is dead. Hate him or love him, Webb was the fastest rider on the track the majority of the season in the main events.

8 race wins to 4.

That’s not a title won just by “race craft”. The dude is really really fast when it counts, even with a target on his back.

What say you vital? Do we still say Kenny is faster in SX than Cooper or is the narrative dead now?
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theToothPerry
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theToothPerry 5/2/2021 11:54am
5/2/2021 11:54am Edited Date/Time 5/2/2021 11:55am
Same argument that JS was faster but Dunge has more titles. Fastest doesn't always equate to wins. In the main Kenny had a faster time than Webb, so yes he was faster.
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TbonesPop 5/2/2021 11:58am
5/2/2021 11:58am
End of season, Webb had the most points = Webb is the fastest. 8 wins on the season which is double the next best rider's win total. Not sure what is up for debate. The number of laps led in a season just tells me one is a better starter than the other, and one is a better finisher than the other. I'd rather be a better finisher. There's no points given out for fastest individual lap times. Very reminiscent of when James was riding late in his career. Everybody lines up at the first race of the year with 0 points. Whoever gets the most points by round 17 wins. Pretty simple. Webb is the fastest.
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GForce MMG 5/2/2021 11:59am
5/2/2021 11:59am
You only have to lead 1 lap of the race to win.
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chasetwo79
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chasetwo79 5/2/2021 12:03pm
5/2/2021 12:03pm
theToothPerry wrote:
Same argument that JS was faster but Dunge has more titles. Fastest doesn't always equate to wins. In the main Kenny had a faster time than...
Same argument that JS was faster but Dunge has more titles. Fastest doesn't always equate to wins. In the main Kenny had a faster time than Webb, so yes he was faster.
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class.

He’s faster than Kenny in SX.
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theToothPerry
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theToothPerry 5/2/2021 12:13pm
5/2/2021 12:13pm
chasetwo79 wrote:
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class. He’s faster...
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class.

He’s faster than Kenny in SX.
So the guy with the fastest lap time isn't the fastest. Copy that.
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ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 5/2/2021 12:16pm
5/2/2021 12:16pm
chasetwo79 wrote:
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class. He’s faster...
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class.

He’s faster than Kenny in SX.
theToothPerry wrote:
So the guy with the fastest lap time isn't the fastest. Copy that.
Sexton had the fastest lap of the race so I guess he's fastest ?
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theToothPerry
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theToothPerry 5/2/2021 12:16pm
5/2/2021 12:16pm
TbonesPop wrote:
End of season, Webb had the most points = Webb is the fastest. 8 wins on the season which is double the next best rider's win...
End of season, Webb had the most points = Webb is the fastest. 8 wins on the season which is double the next best rider's win total. Not sure what is up for debate. The number of laps led in a season just tells me one is a better starter than the other, and one is a better finisher than the other. I'd rather be a better finisher. There's no points given out for fastest individual lap times. Very reminiscent of when James was riding late in his career. Everybody lines up at the first race of the year with 0 points. Whoever gets the most points by round 17 wins. Pretty simple. Webb is the fastest.
Its up for debate because a faster rider can crash and lose the race every time. Doesn't make the winner the fastest. There clearly is a difference between being faster and losing the race, and just winning the race due to said circumstance.
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theToothPerry
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theToothPerry 5/2/2021 12:18pm
5/2/2021 12:18pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2021 12:22pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Sexton had the fastest lap of the race so I guess he's fastest ?
You answered your own question. Maybe im dense, but being fastest and being the winner of the race can be two different things right? Or am I just crazy.
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chasetwo79
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chasetwo79 5/2/2021 12:27pm
5/2/2021 12:27pm
chasetwo79 wrote:
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class. He’s faster...
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class.

He’s faster than Kenny in SX.
theToothPerry wrote:
So the guy with the fastest lap time isn't the fastest. Copy that.
No. The guy with the fastest lap time in practice is not the fastest rider. There’s one lap speed and race speed. Cooper has shown way more race speed than Ken in SX as a whole, hence having more race wins than Ken.
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APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 5/2/2021 12:29pm
5/2/2021 12:29pm
TbonesPop wrote:
End of season, Webb had the most points = Webb is the fastest. 8 wins on the season which is double the next best rider's win...
End of season, Webb had the most points = Webb is the fastest. 8 wins on the season which is double the next best rider's win total. Not sure what is up for debate. The number of laps led in a season just tells me one is a better starter than the other, and one is a better finisher than the other. I'd rather be a better finisher. There's no points given out for fastest individual lap times. Very reminiscent of when James was riding late in his career. Everybody lines up at the first race of the year with 0 points. Whoever gets the most points by round 17 wins. Pretty simple. Webb is the fastest.
You may remember the 2003 125 National Championships.

James Stewart finished 3rd in the overall standings behind Langston and Hughes. Neither of those guys were even close to Stewart’s speed, no matter what the final points standings show......!

😎
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gt80rider
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gt80rider 5/2/2021 12:33pm
5/2/2021 12:33pm
chasetwo79 wrote:
You always hear “Kenny is the fastest rider, he just melts mentally”. That excuse is dead. Hate him or love him, Webb was the fastest rider...
You always hear “Kenny is the fastest rider, he just melts mentally”.

That excuse is dead. Hate him or love him, Webb was the fastest rider on the track the majority of the season in the main events.

8 race wins to 4.

That’s not a title won just by “race craft”. The dude is really really fast when it counts, even with a target on his back.

What say you vital? Do we still say Kenny is faster in SX than Cooper or is the narrative dead now?
Faster than his comp is someone like js7 or rc4.... both those guys were at least a second faster than anyone else on the track, and both did that regardless of the color of their motorcycle....
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tjnel
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tjnel 5/2/2021 12:43pm
5/2/2021 12:43pm
Agreed the idea that all Webb has is ‘race craft’ is stupid. He reels in the leaders and passes them to win races. He’s usually the fastest rider the last half of the race. When Tomac does that it’s called “Beast Mode” but if Webb does it people say he’s “smart but not fast.”
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mxb2
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mxb2 5/2/2021 1:15pm
5/2/2021 1:15pm
Fastest, best however how you want to word it, is the points, title holder end the end of the series. Speed means nothing if ya cant do it the whole race, series etc. Ama record books dont have fast lap titles.
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TogaSet
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TogaSet 5/2/2021 1:44pm
5/2/2021 1:44pm
Fastest for 20 minutes is what counts. The “ Assassin” owns that skill in 2021.
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Thisusernameisavailable 5/2/2021 2:07pm
5/2/2021 2:07pm
chasetwo79 wrote:
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class. He’s faster...
Dunge doesn’t have more race wins than Stewart. Copper has won more races than Kenny in his career with less years in the class.

He’s faster than Kenny in SX.
theToothPerry wrote:
So the guy with the fastest lap time isn't the fastest. Copy that.
The man to complete twenty minutes plus 1 lap first is the fastest. Anything that happens before that doesn't mean shit.

For instance, who or what decides what the intervals are? If a 'nobody' brought out his CR500 and busted a hole shot, could he claim to be the fastest in the race? He did after al beat everybody to the first turn, right? So he's the fastest, right?
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Regis
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Regis 5/2/2021 2:12pm
5/2/2021 2:12pm
I remember these arguments here from 10 years ago. Bunch of newbies. Tongue
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fanger
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fanger 5/2/2021 2:15pm
5/2/2021 2:15pm
Doesn't the fastest rider get to the finish line first? I swear to god he rides at 90 percent for the first half of a race and hits the go button at the half way point when everyone is starting to fatigue.
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notJamesStewart 5/2/2021 2:23pm
5/2/2021 2:23pm
What matters is who was the best, not who was the fastest. Webb was the best. Plain and simple. Roczen can brag about his speed, Webb can brag about his titles.
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fullysicmate
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fullysicmate 5/2/2021 2:27pm
5/2/2021 2:27pm
Cooper had more faster laps than Kenny this year....
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aeffertz
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aeffertz 5/2/2021 2:36pm
5/2/2021 2:36pm
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olds cool
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olds cool 5/2/2021 3:05pm
5/2/2021 3:05pm
Which one do you get a bigger bonus check for, being “the fastest” or having the most points when all of the races are finished? If I was a professional motor scooter racer, I’d care more about whichever one paid the most and the hell with all the small talk about who’s this and who’s that.
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S.A. Weave
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S.A. Weave 5/2/2021 3:51pm
5/2/2021 3:51pm
How many times did Webb catch and pass Roczen this year, compare that to how many times Roczen caught and passed Webb, that'll be the answer.
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Ramrod
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Ramrod 5/2/2021 3:52pm
5/2/2021 3:52pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2021 3:53pm
The best guy won the title, period.
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jaun
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jaun 5/2/2021 4:05pm
5/2/2021 4:05pm
Cooper Webb is the fastest man on the planet in SX @ completing 20min + 1 lap.

Hes the fastest.....give it up Roczen huggers
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inthebadboycorner 5/2/2021 4:14pm
5/2/2021 4:14pm
TogaSet wrote:
Fastest for 20 minutes is what counts. The “ Assassin” owns that skill in 2021.
So he has no chance outdoors?
jorgechavez 5/2/2021 4:16pm
5/2/2021 4:16pm
Webb is the kind of rider who won’t truly be appreciated until after he retires.
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Crush
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Crush 5/2/2021 4:50pm
5/2/2021 4:50pm
How is faster and better this hard to distinguish.

Moto history is filled with faster guys who didn’t get it done.
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bodean123 5/2/2021 5:24pm
5/2/2021 5:24pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2021 5:25pm
jorgechavez wrote:
Webb is the kind of rider who won’t truly be appreciated until after he retires.
Similar to Dungey, people always made excuses about his wins.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Webb click off a couple more of these in next few years.
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endurox
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endurox 5/2/2021 5:46pm
5/2/2021 5:46pm
Roczen is the quickest for 8 minutes, Webb is the quickest for the last 12 minutes.
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tomlopez
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tomlopez 5/2/2021 5:58pm
5/2/2021 5:58pm
People will bring up Ken having slightly faster single lap times as proof that he's faster. My issue with that is that it's so arbitrary to consider one lap as the default length of time to discern speed on a dirtbike. To really evaluate who's "faster", there needs to be an established duration that holds importance to the race. And for SX, that is 20 minutes and a lap. So in my eyes, whoever can complete this the quickest is the fastest. To say that Roczen is "faster" because of being .015 quicker for one lap is like saying a baseball player with 20 home runs has more "power" than another player with 40 home runs because the 20 HR player's second HR was the hardest hit ball of the season. You can say it tells some kind of story about his true power, but ultimately it means nothing if he's not hitting as many as the other guy.
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