Where are mid to back grid riders losing time to the top guys?

Alan Dove
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GB
Edited Date/Time 2/5/2021 4:28pm
So, I guess I am a casual fan of supecross/motocross. I've ridden a little and crashed a lot.

I wanted to know where the riders are losing time at Supercross because the gaps between the A and B guys is around 2+ seconds, which from the realm I am in usually is a lot over a 46 second lap. Is it cornering speed (entry, mid, exit)? Approach to the jumps, whoops? Is it in the bike set up? Is it factory vs privateer bikes? I know the B riders are still sh*t hot compared to average riders by the way, I am not wanting to demean their abilities here, I just want a better understanding.

I was also watching a few vlogs on youtube, and there seems to be a relative lack of data analysis or anything like that. I would often coach drivers with video analysis overlaying fast drivers against mine and that was always informative. This all could be being done off camera though.

I am in the UK so we've been in prison for 12 months so I haven't been able to get to any events and ask questions to riders directly. I have had to watch from afar.

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ElliotB16
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Cairo, GA US
2/3/2021 3:58am
A lit pro would show the data. Whoops, corners, being aggressive in rhythm sections.
bowl
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AU
2/3/2021 4:05am
Top rider's jump a lot lower then the slower guys
kb228
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Mansfield, OH US
2/3/2021 4:39am
I can tell by watching they arent as smooth in corners. They clip landings with the rear wheel or jump too far and almost land on the takeoff and because of that they cant hit the big lines. You could tell kenny was going to win because he was the only rider riding smooth as butter. Whats that saying? Slow is smooth and smooth is fast
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2/3/2021 4:44am
Everywhere.
You’d think if you were able to do all the jumps you’d be up front but it’s a combination of everything.
Being fit and aggressive every moment of the race, no rolling or coasting into a corner, gotta rail everything, scrub everything, close ya eyes and blitz the whoops EVERY TIME lol.
Perfect laps. It ain’t easy
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The Shop

yamahaha131
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Newark, OH US
2/3/2021 4:44am
Top riders will push through jump faces carrying more speed while staying lower. Ruts don’t seem to affect their concentration as much allowing them to put the bike where they want. Rolling speed in corners is next level. Bike set up allowing the bike to stay settled and predictable. I believe things just happen a lot “slower” for the elite guys allowing them go faster more efficiently and in control. Seat time And... conditioning, conditioning, conditioning!

Just my 2 cents from a mediocre Vet B rider.
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kkawboy14
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2/3/2021 4:56am
Jumps, turns and straights!
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JB 19
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Marion, OH US
2/3/2021 5:03am
It all starts in the corners. Fast in the corners is fast and low on the jumps, also equals fast in the whoops. Fast around the corners allows you to lean forward and drive through the jump. Slower means you have get more lift to get over the same jump, and then the jumps that follow.
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mxbigd17
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Johnstown, OH US
2/3/2021 5:08am
Everywhere.......
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lumpy790
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2/3/2021 5:11am
Little bit here ... little bit there
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Falcon
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2/3/2021 8:49am
lumpy790 wrote:
Little bit here ... little bit there
This. It's the same reason a novice is faster than a beginner, Yamahaha is faster than a novice, and an expert is faster than Yamahaha.
1
2/3/2021 8:54am
Having an entire team around you and invested in you gives them a large advantage. Showing up and just having to ride. And having great practice facility access helps a ton.

Privateers do everything. They don’t just ride. They’re wearing multiple hats. They don’t have access to a huge resource of parts, mechanics and engineers etc. some will break out yes and get a ride.

Riders able to focus on riding and get better only have a little leg up.
Alan Dove
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GB
2/3/2021 9:10am
Something I did in karting I'd have a static camera whereby I could film a corner, and then overlay the driver with one of our faster guys in the team over the top. It gives you a clear 1:1 visual comparison (would be even more effective on bikes I'd imagine). This kind of thing (this is from Kinovea's website)



I think something like that in supercross would be hugely educational when assessing how the Roczens of the world generate lap time. I don't like using my own perception as its unreliable.
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tuttle425
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Prairie Village, KS US
2/3/2021 9:24am
Everywhere, really.

Even if they are doing the same rhythm combos and both guys are hitting them smooth the Roczens/Tomacs/etc will do them so much faster.

I think the biggest discrepancy rider to rider is the whoops. Even among the factory guys. Compare someone like Stewart vs Webb. Or Craig vs Nichols.
rallendude
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Adger, AL US
2/4/2021 4:32pm
Most of the 20-40 guys are doing all the rhythm combos that the top guys are. But like said above, they aren’t as fast anywhere on the track. Pick one section like a triple landing and watch the riders. The Roczens, Barcias, Tomacs, etc will land and give a short burst of hard throttle on the down side of the landing and then brake super hard into the turns. The back half guys are landing and either coasting to the turn or on the brakes. The acceleration out of the turns is noticeably different as well. It just comes down to the top guys are pushing as hard as they can everywhere on the track. The back half guys “think” they are pushing as hard as they can. It’s a pretty far step to get from local pro who is blowing everyone away at the home track to the level those top 10 guys are pushing. It’s not that they don’t know it. They just haven’t figured out how to pull it off yet.
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Motodave15
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Temple City, CA US
2/4/2021 4:40pm
Besides the people saying everywhere.. (Go Figure Captain Obviouses)

our sport would benefit immensely from this kind of data acquisition. Sometimes i wish we had throttle monitoring rpms going in the whoops etc.

Also with stating everywhere it doesnt give specifics.....

They're losing time in approximately three areas mainly, Entrance/exit of corner.
The timing of the landing and throttle on the downside of jumps and whoops.

Fitness is key over the length of the race, However for 1 lap.. fitness is less of a factor than the timing and cornering aspect.
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downard254
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Bremen, OH US
2/4/2021 4:49pm
Whoops, corners, and rhythm sections. But that’s about it. Cool
mx216
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Portland, OR US
2/4/2021 5:45pm Edited Date/Time 2/4/2021 5:49pm
Its everywhere and it's just small amounts of time. 1/10th of a second in a corner slower doesn't look like like a lot. But with 10 corners on a track, well, it adds up. Add a 1/10th of second on each jump, and add .5 to 1 second in the whoops and there you you have basically a 3 second a lap difference. All the while to the naked eye they dont really look like they are going much slower at all.
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EngIceDave
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Merritt Island, FL US
2/4/2021 5:46pm
Confidence and aggression

That is where they lose it
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3
2/4/2021 5:56pm
Everywhere, the fastest riders process information faster in their head so they can hit obstacles faster and cleaner.

Notice head position on faster guys compared to the slower guys, they’re looking further down the track because they are thinking further ahead.
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Forty
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Saint Paul, MN US
2/4/2021 6:21pm
UpTiTe wrote:
Everywhere, the fastest riders process information faster in their head so they can hit obstacles faster and cleaner. Notice head position on faster guys compared to...
Everywhere, the fastest riders process information faster in their head so they can hit obstacles faster and cleaner.

Notice head position on faster guys compared to the slower guys, they’re looking further down the track because they are thinking further ahead.
By looking further their brains have more time to break it down and respond.
2/4/2021 6:37pm
UpTiTe wrote:
Everywhere, the fastest riders process information faster in their head so they can hit obstacles faster and cleaner. Notice head position on faster guys compared to...
Everywhere, the fastest riders process information faster in their head so they can hit obstacles faster and cleaner.

Notice head position on faster guys compared to the slower guys, they’re looking further down the track because they are thinking further ahead.
Forty wrote:
By looking further their brains have more time to break it down and respond.
Yes, that’s my point. They process everything faster.
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TDeath21
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Somewhere, MO US
2/4/2021 7:00pm
Mainly corners. That is essentially everything in SX. It allows you more speed into the whoops/rhythms/triple. Which means you get through the whoops much quicker, you can jump the tougher rhythms, and you can stay lower over the triples and rhythms while jumping the same distance.

I’ll never forget back in the mid 00s seeing the top A guys at our track who I thought were so fast get absolutely mopped up by Dennis Jonan when he showed up one day. The corner speed was insanely different and it allowed him to make sections that were supposed to be difficult look easy. Same thing here except at a higher level. If you were used to watching the B and C practice groups in SX (let’s say a guy like Enticknap is the top dude) then one round Ken Roczen showed up, you’d really notice it. We just don’t notice it much because we rarely get to see the top dudes actually race those LCQ bubble guys. The only time we see it, they’re giving way due to a blue flag waving.
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hartebreak
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2/4/2021 7:42pm
Alan Dove wrote:
So, I guess I am a [i]casual [/i]fan of supecross/motocross. I've ridden a little and crashed a lot. I wanted to know where the riders are...
So, I guess I am a casual fan of supecross/motocross. I've ridden a little and crashed a lot.

I wanted to know where the riders are losing time at Supercross because the gaps between the A and B guys is around 2+ seconds, which from the realm I am in usually is a lot over a 46 second lap. Is it cornering speed (entry, mid, exit)? Approach to the jumps, whoops? Is it in the bike set up? Is it factory vs privateer bikes? I know the B riders are still sh*t hot compared to average riders by the way, I am not wanting to demean their abilities here, I just want a better understanding.

I was also watching a few vlogs on youtube, and there seems to be a relative lack of data analysis or anything like that. I would often coach drivers with video analysis overlaying fast drivers against mine and that was always informative. This all could be being done off camera though.

I am in the UK so we've been in prison for 12 months so I haven't been able to get to any events and ask questions to riders directly. I have had to watch from afar.

The track
1
d394
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Middletown, NY US
2/5/2021 6:18am
if you watch timing, you can look at the segmented times... its will show you the time gaps for each segment/split.
MDana87
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WA US
2/5/2021 8:24am Edited Date/Time 2/5/2021 8:24am
Alan Dove wrote:
Something I did in karting I'd have a static camera whereby I could film a corner, and then overlay the driver with one of our faster...
Something I did in karting I'd have a static camera whereby I could film a corner, and then overlay the driver with one of our faster guys in the team over the top. It gives you a clear 1:1 visual comparison (would be even more effective on bikes I'd imagine). This kind of thing (this is from Kinovea's website)



I think something like that in supercross would be hugely educational when assessing how the Roczens of the world generate lap time. I don't like using my own perception as its unreliable.
(Ben) Cathro Vision does something very similar in the World Cup Downhill MTB coverage he does. Agree, it would be cool to see it applied to SX/MX.
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zehn
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Anchorage, AK US
2/5/2021 11:48am
Without any data to back this up, I think that slower riders rider lose the majority of time on corner entry and mid-corner, and on the whoops. Just watch the top riders like Roczen, Tomac, and Webb attack corners then watch the LCQs and compare.

Whoops are a place where they lose a lot of time too but you have guys that are normally average at best in them (like Webb) who can still make up time elsewhere on the track
711stretch
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2/5/2021 3:22pm
jumps for show, corners for dough!
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rider892
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League City, TX US
2/5/2021 3:57pm
Alan Dove wrote:
Something I did in karting I'd have a static camera whereby I could film a corner, and then overlay the driver with one of our faster...
Something I did in karting I'd have a static camera whereby I could film a corner, and then overlay the driver with one of our faster guys in the team over the top. It gives you a clear 1:1 visual comparison (would be even more effective on bikes I'd imagine). This kind of thing (this is from Kinovea's website)



I think something like that in supercross would be hugely educational when assessing how the Roczens of the world generate lap time. I don't like using my own perception as its unreliable.
The teams use a software called dart fish and it’s pretty good at showing lost time .. although from my experience filming faster to slower riders on a Supercross track it’s hard to keep the faster rider in the same frame as the slower one
plowboy
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2/5/2021 4:06pm
A buddy at work said, "the bike only does what you tell it to do". I thought about that for a bit...and I believe it's true. The rider that can concentrate, focus, and has the innate skill will make the bike do what he wants. Consistency wins races/championships.
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nickm
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CA
2/5/2021 4:10pm
Mostly the sprocket bolts and the air in the forks
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