Ama Amateurs, does it need a refresh?

EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/29/2020 9:07am
12/29/2020 9:07am
motoxxx599 wrote:
I grew up racing every chance I could get. Growing up in Houston we would race Saturday night and then go home and sleep for 4...
I grew up racing every chance I could get. Growing up in Houston we would race Saturday night and then go home and sleep for 4 hours and then go race Sunday. There was a time when one local track was racing Wednesday nights and we would race three times a week. I can't imagine racing 3 times a year. How do you get any race experience doing that? If you fall over in a corner there is a chance your whole year was a waste.
If I go to a training facility and all I do all day, every day is ride and race against the fastest at the facility, I don't need to race any races but National level events my sponsors require.

Going to make a required number of races per year?
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Renner153
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Renner153 12/29/2020 9:12am
12/29/2020 9:12am
Guys stay amateur longer these days because they know they 1 maybe 2 years in the pro ranks to prove their worth. If you arent top 5 immediately, you wont be signed for the following year. And once you drop off, you rarely make it back to the top. Guys staying in the 250 class for their entire careers taking up the few spots are causing amateurs to stay back as long as possible to be as ready as possible to hopefully make a big splash when they move up. Back a decade ago, if you were 20, you were racing in the 450 (or 250) class. Now, 20 and you still have 3 years till you "mature" enough for the big boy class. Trickles down from there.
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ProMotoFan
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ProMotoFan 12/29/2020 10:45am
12/29/2020 10:45am
A 6 round "Championship Series" is a really great idea IMO. Not a "refresh", just make it happen! All the existing Amateurs Nats continue on as they are.
As with anything, the success of the series would ultimately prove itself worthy or not based on the interest and ultimately the number of entries at each event. When compared to the Monster Cup, absolutely the Amateur Classes are a huge draw for fans, and provide some of the best racing of the night. And Amateur racing on Sunday at the Pro Nats (and SXFutures) are already super popular!

SuperMini Under 15 and 250 15 and over (you can only run one class in the Series). 20 Min +2, practice (qualifying if necessary) and 1st Motos on Friday and 2nd Motos (with sight lap) on Saturday during the Pro Nats.

As for scouting and sponsors, etc. no doubt a more consistent pattern of races on pro level tracks would provide the best data sample possible in choosing a rider to support.
As for parents and the rider, same deal....you already have an idea of where you stand in the pecking order, so you choose your approach; Go 'pro' in the amateur series or stick with the one-off nats. Maybe mix in a little of both based on time available and budget, etc. I'm sure if you only showed up at the last event for example, and made top 5 or podium, you are getting a look!
The idea that racing a "series" also helps a young rider is absolutely valid. Not to mention the element of thousands of fans (we hope) lining the fences makes the experience even more legit.

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motoxxx599 12/29/2020 12:12pm
12/29/2020 12:12pm
motoxxx599 wrote:
I grew up racing every chance I could get. Growing up in Houston we would race Saturday night and then go home and sleep for 4...
I grew up racing every chance I could get. Growing up in Houston we would race Saturday night and then go home and sleep for 4 hours and then go race Sunday. There was a time when one local track was racing Wednesday nights and we would race three times a week. I can't imagine racing 3 times a year. How do you get any race experience doing that? If you fall over in a corner there is a chance your whole year was a waste.
EngIceDave wrote:
If I go to a training facility and all I do all day, every day is ride and race against the fastest at the facility, I...
If I go to a training facility and all I do all day, every day is ride and race against the fastest at the facility, I don't need to race any races but National level events my sponsors require.

Going to make a required number of races per year?
I know those guys run motos all day but there is no substitute for real gate drops. The training facilities run controlled practice motos against the same guys day in and day out. Im surprised some of these sponsors dont require a minimum number of local or regional races so showcase some product outside of the major amateur nationals.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/29/2020 1:15pm
12/29/2020 1:15pm
motoxxx599 wrote:
I know those guys run motos all day but there is no substitute for real gate drops. The training facilities run controlled practice motos against the...
I know those guys run motos all day but there is no substitute for real gate drops. The training facilities run controlled practice motos against the same guys day in and day out. Im surprised some of these sponsors dont require a minimum number of local or regional races so showcase some product outside of the major amateur nationals.
I don't disagree with you.

But I know of situations where guys, many went pro past and present, go to local or state races and it's a big giant yawn-fest of smoking everyone, only to be attacked for sandbagging or showing up just to cash in on contingencies and bonuses.

I have seen it happen, seen fights start.


Sounds simple.
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GangGreen
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GangGreen 12/30/2020 4:40am
12/30/2020 4:40am
luke11 wrote:
I think all that needs to happen is you abolish the classes? Makes no sense to me you don’t have it in Europe. You race locally...
I think all that needs to happen is you abolish the classes? Makes no sense to me you don’t have it in Europe.
You race locally in your class ie 65 or 85 and if your good enough you qualify for nationals.
There are absolutely too many classes at local motocross events. You used to need two bikes to race two classes. At the local level motocross events, Contingency money should ONLY be paid for "Expert" classes. That way there is no incentive to stay B, C, or whatever. Some local tracks used to run 125cc and 250cc Expert 20 minutes, that was another incentive to turn Expert as fast as possible.

As far as Amateur Nationals, only having Expert and Age Group classes would eliminate "sand bagging". But if you follow the money, it ain't changing. I never understood the " I'm the best 43 year old C rider" deal anyway.
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mwssquad827
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mwssquad827 12/30/2020 7:45am
12/30/2020 7:45am
EngIceDave wrote:
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes" If...
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes"

If it's good now locally and you go messing with it at the National level, what will it do at that local level?
Dunno what will it do??
Park Boys
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Park Boys 12/30/2020 8:00am
12/30/2020 8:00am
Joel Smets and John Dowd.

Who cares about age, come in ready and don’t get injured.
nealb129
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nealb129 12/30/2020 9:30am
12/30/2020 9:30am
I always liked the idea of an amateur “regional” championship that followed the outdoors and races the day after or before. Each region would have a handful of events to attend and the winner would be the “southeast/north/west/ etc” champion. Supermini, 125 expert, 250 expert, 450 expert.
mxracerjohn250 12/30/2020 9:40am
12/30/2020 9:40am
LOL.......might be dead in your area, far from it here in Ohio. Record number of entries! Bikes sales flying off the showroom floors.
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bierbower105
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bierbower105 12/30/2020 10:19am
12/30/2020 10:19am
mxracerjohn250 wrote:
LOL.......might be dead in your area, far from it here in Ohio. Record number of entries! Bikes sales flying off the showroom floors.
I think all the new bike owners are going to show up to a local moto and be pissed they waited around all day for 8 laps...




Then switch to GNCC.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 12/30/2020 12:01pm
12/30/2020 12:01pm
mxracerjohn250 wrote:
LOL.......might be dead in your area, far from it here in Ohio. Record number of entries! Bikes sales flying off the showroom floors.
In Florida, turnout at an FTR (Florida Trail Riders) hare scrambles/GNCC is several times greater than a MX race
Freedom Mx
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Freedom Mx 12/30/2020 1:05pm
12/30/2020 1:05pm
EngIceDave wrote:
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes" If...
Every time I hear the complaints about the amateur classes, I always ask, "Is it fair at your local track?" and they always says "yes"

If it's good now locally and you go messing with it at the National level, what will it do at that local level?
yak651 wrote:
It might be "fair" at the local level but it could be improved. The fast kids don't show up to a local race unless it's a...
It might be "fair" at the local level but it could be improved. The fast kids don't show up to a local race unless it's a qualifier or regional. If they do show up they run one moto and then "dnf" the second to make sure they don't get the almighty advancement points. How can the local fast guy gauge his/her speed when the "real" racers never show up at the track? Wouldn't the local race get better turn outs if handful of fast kids in the state are racing each weekend instead of living at the practice track? Ask the local fast kids why they don't race, they all say it's no fun racing against the same 3-5 people each weekend, well if they show up and bring 2-3 of their practice track buddies from the southern part of the state, the same talent level guy in the northern, eastern, western part of the state do this and all of sudden all the local classes have 20-30 entries like the "old days". Sorry got off tangent about "amateur" racing..
100% ! Couldn’t agree with you more ! Back in the 80’s everyone raced local, especially the fast guys. Everything is about the “training facility’s” Local tracks need decent turnouts to survive. Sadly those turnouts are few and far between. And the 1 Moto and DNS the 2nd is so true.
rhargrave431
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rhargrave431 12/30/2020 6:17pm
12/30/2020 6:17pm
I like the idea of having a 250 Allstars series ran in conjunction with the nationals. Put them on a stock or limited 250 and go. I don't think you need to put superminis in there.
Phillip_Lamb
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Phillip_Lamb 12/30/2020 7:05pm
12/30/2020 7:05pm
Mega Racing wrote:
I just watched the Levi Kitchen interview on Swapmoto & he seems like a cool talented kid. However the strange thing is he’s coming 20 in...
I just watched the Levi Kitchen interview on Swapmoto & he seems like a cool talented kid. However the strange thing is he’s coming 20 in February I believe, & he wont race sx this year then he will go race some Amateur races then maybe if all works out he races nationals.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Tom Vialle is 20 & already a world Champion. Prado is a 2 time world champ & racing MX1 & is only 5-6 weeks older than kitchen.

Factory Husky just signed 14 year old Maxime Grau to race EMX 250.

I listened to the Mitch Payton Whiskey Throttle show & he didnt seem like a big fan of the Amateur scene. He said it didnt make sense to call them titles when its on one day at one track.

Why do riders stay in Amateurs so long? Is there a lot of money to be made in titles at Lorettas? Is there big TV audiences for fans & sponsors?

would it be better to have 6 rounds of nationals with a under 18 125 support class. 25min plus 2 laps. Then 6 rounds of under 21 250 support class. That way top teams can scout new talent & see them on real tracks in real conditions & bring some talent on.

Motocross is such a short career i dont see why guys are being held in Amateurs by teams. Why not send kitchen to Europe for the year to race EMX250? Im sure that would boost Yamaha exposure. If the schedule didnt conflict he could go back to US for amateur races.
there def is money to be made. on Pulp this week they talked about how details of Forkners contract made it online and it was for 6 figures.

and most contracts paid somewhere around 10k to show up to an AM nat.

part of it also has to do with waiting for a team slot to open up. Its similiar to guys going to 450's. a lot of slower factory guys dont end up on top teams cuz the limited rides or a team has someone else theyre waiting on. like factory Kawi picking between Savatgy and AC.
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109 12/30/2020 7:33pm
12/30/2020 7:33pm
Biggest difference between Euro and here is there’s no A, B, C class in Europe. A national championship or European championship is not an ability class. Get rid of that and watch everything change.

C class champion at Lorretas is the fastest rider with the least integrity!
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Cortami79
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Cortami79 12/30/2020 7:48pm
12/30/2020 7:48pm
Bearuno wrote:
Well, for the Euros, they've got the '23 and You're Out' rule. That there is a big reason for being a 'Pro', [i]PDQ...........[/i]. Thankfully, Zacho had...
Well, for the Euros, they've got the '23 and You're Out' rule.

That there is a big reason for being a 'Pro', PDQ............

Thankfully, Zacho had the opportunity to go back to the USA, when he , by his own admission, was Not ready for MX1.

Going back to the US, gave him as many years as he needed, to stay in 250s - I think until he was something like 28 - to get a few 250 titles, and then get onto 450s. To finally get a US Outdoors 450 title this year. Fantastic! Thank goodness the USA doesn't have such a rule as the GPs do.

Everyone is different, some need / want time to follow their own course, and Not be pushed into a class they may have no chance of a ride / no chance of doing well (at that time, or Any time), and, just lose their racing career through stupid age out rules. Some - well, a shedload - just get passed over for those that employers regard as a better 'bet'.

But, to this Levi youngster - he may be making money with an Amateur career. He may have no current opportunities for a Pro ride. Heck, he may not want a Pro career. I never feel like I, or others, should delve into riders motivations / decisions / circumstances.

Your "would it be better to"?

Well, that's down to DC and Co, as he / they run Outdoors, Junior and Senior. He's the Man that can make / enact a Plan.

Levi going to EMX and returning for the US Amateur races - someone has to finance that - Who?
Mega Racing wrote:
Im sure a local European Yamaha team would pick him up & pay his salary while he was in Europe. Do i think a year in...
Im sure a local European Yamaha team would pick him up & pay his salary while he was in Europe.
Do i think a year in Europe would help him to be a better rider rather than riding a practice facility & a few amateur events? Yes i do. Riding lommel & slick hard pack in france & Italy & being pushed by 10 guys the same speed every week would definitely help. Just look at how it helped Osborne as you said.

Max Voland wanted this year in EMX 125 & rode the first one untill Corona hurt. His dad obviously felt a year in Europe was a good option then return to US for big Amateur races.
The MXGP paddock is not always what it seems to be. Not many teams are giving away big paychecks for their riders, especially not in EMX250. Only a few do. Even in mx2 you can count riders getting paid very well on two hands. Most of the riders buy themselves a ride through personal sponsors unless they are really talented. I think there is more money in the USA to be honest., EMX125/250 is a great learning curve for young talents though.
kage173
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kage173 12/31/2020 7:10am
12/31/2020 7:10am
Comparing Levi Kitchen to Vialle or Prado is the first mistake. He hasn't gone pro because he wasnt and isn't a top am prospect. Chase Sexton is 21, has 2 250SX championships, top 10 450 MX season and a 450 factory ride. The system absolutely worked for him. Max Vohland is 17 and is going pro with KTM. Those guys are a better example of how the amateur system works for elite riders. Of course there is room for improvement but compare apples to apples.

The change to US am scene has already happened.
It is the emphasis on SX. I think that'll continue to grow and the MX skill level will widen between US and Europe. But that isnt and shouldn't be the benchmark.
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4DAIVIPAI2K5
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4DAIVIPAI2K5 1/2/2021 6:03am
1/2/2021 6:03am
Vohland said in that new video the biggest change will be racing every weekend as a pro vs a couple times a year as an AM. I would say he nailed it.
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Moto213
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Moto213 1/2/2021 6:30am
1/2/2021 6:30am
Mega Racing wrote:
I just watched the Levi Kitchen interview on Swapmoto & he seems like a cool talented kid. However the strange thing is he’s coming 20 in...
I just watched the Levi Kitchen interview on Swapmoto & he seems like a cool talented kid. However the strange thing is he’s coming 20 in February I believe, & he wont race sx this year then he will go race some Amateur races then maybe if all works out he races nationals.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Tom Vialle is 20 & already a world Champion. Prado is a 2 time world champ & racing MX1 & is only 5-6 weeks older than kitchen.

Factory Husky just signed 14 year old Maxime Grau to race EMX 250.

I listened to the Mitch Payton Whiskey Throttle show & he didnt seem like a big fan of the Amateur scene. He said it didnt make sense to call them titles when its on one day at one track.

Why do riders stay in Amateurs so long? Is there a lot of money to be made in titles at Lorettas? Is there big TV audiences for fans & sponsors?

would it be better to have 6 rounds of nationals with a under 18 125 support class. 25min plus 2 laps. Then 6 rounds of under 21 250 support class. That way top teams can scout new talent & see them on real tracks in real conditions & bring some talent on.

Motocross is such a short career i dont see why guys are being held in Amateurs by teams. Why not send kitchen to Europe for the year to race EMX250? Im sure that would boost Yamaha exposure. If the schedule didnt conflict he could go back to US for amateur races.
Phillip_Lamb wrote:
there def is money to be made. on Pulp this week they talked about how details of Forkners contract made it online and it was for...
there def is money to be made. on Pulp this week they talked about how details of Forkners contract made it online and it was for 6 figures.

and most contracts paid somewhere around 10k to show up to an AM nat.

part of it also has to do with waiting for a team slot to open up. Its similiar to guys going to 450's. a lot of slower factory guys dont end up on top teams cuz the limited rides or a team has someone else theyre waiting on. like factory Kawi picking between Savatgy and AC.
I do not listen to pulp (fiction). If they said Forkner was making 6 figures as an amateur, that’s not even close to correct.
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Moto520
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Moto520 1/2/2021 8:23am
1/2/2021 8:23am Edited Date/Time 1/2/2021 8:37am
The whole Loretta Lynn thing is so freaking cost prohibitive IMO. Why the hell would people spend that kind of money for 3 motos? Are you kidding me? I don’t think it’s a greed thing by MX Sports because people buy the product that they sell and they do a good job selling it. To pay a couple thousand dollars for three motos is retarded. Who throws money away like that? This is a money prohibitive sport and has gotten more so as the years have gone by. My wish would be for the costs of the amateur nationals to go down. Cost of bike is a fair price and there are plenty of decent used bikes out there so I don’t put the blame on that.
Not complaining about MX Sports......I’m sure their passion for the sport rivals mine and I appreciate what they are trying to do. Also....there is ALWAYS Multiple classes that I can race with one bike.
I have a 125 and I’m having to throw a piston in that thing every 20 hours. Cost of maintenance on a 4 stroke is not that bad in comparison. Do the preventative maintenance on a 4 stroke and the price of ownership is not that bad. Racing locally is not that expensive.
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Motofinne 1/2/2021 8:36am
1/2/2021 8:36am Edited Date/Time 1/2/2021 8:42am
4DAIVIPAI2K5 wrote:
Vohland said in that new video the biggest change will be racing every weekend as a pro vs a couple times a year as an AM...
Vohland said in that new video the biggest change will be racing every weekend as a pro vs a couple times a year as an AM. I would say he nailed it.
Yep, there was obviously a reason why he raced the first EMX125 race of the season before the pandemic hit and planned on doing more of them.

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