WP A kit vs KYB spring conversion for AER?

Pirate421
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9/23/2020 8:15am
Looks like the race tech spring conversion with gold valves is only about $100 or less difference than the MXT Lucky kit.
9/23/2020 8:37am
Everyone who owns a Yamaha raves about how great the KYB suspension is. I would try the KYB conversion. The fact that there is a pair of used Cone Valves on the buy sell every other day doesn't speak great for how good they are. I my self have cone valve and wouldn't buy them again. The only reason I bought them is because the 4CS was just sooooo bad
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agn5009
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9/23/2020 8:56am
Pirate421 wrote:
Can the Mx tech lucky kit be removed and the forks set back to stock. I can’t remember if or where I read that they have...
Can the Mx tech lucky kit be removed and the forks set back to stock. I can’t remember if or where I read that they have to modify something internally for the lucky kit? If it was removable I’m probably going that route. Will call tomorrow if I have time I think I’ve heard good things about pro tune awhile back and they aren’t too far from me.

I think pro tune does a kyb conversion but I think it sounds like they use used donor parts from sss forks? Anyone have any experience with them?
SweetDaddy wrote:
ProTune did my KYB conversion for $1300 - very happy with it.
pro tune did mine as well. I'm much happier with the suspension now. It is still a shame we have to continuously have this conversatuon regarding WP forks though. I wish KTM would get their heads out of their asses and put better forks on their bikes.
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Johnny Depp
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9/23/2020 9:02am
Pirate421 wrote:
Looks like the race tech spring conversion with gold valves is only about $100 or less difference than the MXT Lucky kit.
It's also a 1 sided kit, whereas the MXT is both. MXT has is a much better and complete DIY setup, with more advanced state of the art components pre assembled. There have been many happy Yamaha AOS/SSS owners who have switched to MXT's and love them over the KYB's stock.
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The Shop

ben5020
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9/23/2020 11:05am
Don’t listen to those saying it’s a waste of money, good suspension that is tuned for your abilities will make you a better rider down the road and way more enjoyable while doing it. If you invest in the kyb you can always sell them down the road or keep them and stick woth ktm/husky/gasgas forever and you’ll be set for life.
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chasetwo79
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9/23/2020 11:16am
ben5020 wrote:
Don’t listen to those saying it’s a waste of money, good suspension that is tuned for your abilities will make you a better rider down the...
Don’t listen to those saying it’s a waste of money, good suspension that is tuned for your abilities will make you a better rider down the road and way more enjoyable while doing it. If you invest in the kyb you can always sell them down the road or keep them and stick woth ktm/husky/gasgas forever and you’ll be set for life.
No one is saying don’t get good suspension. I’m saying they don’t need A kit at that level ever and anyone suggesting a C rider get that is just driving up the cost for entry level racing already more than it is which ruins things for small race promoters.
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ben5020
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9/23/2020 11:27am
ben5020 wrote:
Don’t listen to those saying it’s a waste of money, good suspension that is tuned for your abilities will make you a better rider down the...
Don’t listen to those saying it’s a waste of money, good suspension that is tuned for your abilities will make you a better rider down the road and way more enjoyable while doing it. If you invest in the kyb you can always sell them down the road or keep them and stick woth ktm/husky/gasgas forever and you’ll be set for life.
chasetwo79 wrote:
No one is saying don’t get good suspension. I’m saying they don’t need A kit at that level ever and anyone suggesting a C rider get...
No one is saying don’t get good suspension. I’m saying they don’t need A kit at that level ever and anyone suggesting a C rider get that is just driving up the cost for entry level racing already more than it is which ruins things for small race promoters.
By good suspension I mean kyb inserts/ohlins/mxtech etc, not necessarily the a kit versions which to be honest the kyb “a kit” is really just coatings. Spring conversions on a ktm/husky/gasgas is a huge improvement over stock air forks. I get what you are saying but in all reality if he keeps riding the suspension will payoff 10 fold not only in the fun factor but confidence as well as consistency, air forks suck! Lol
2
chasetwo79
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9/23/2020 11:39am
ben5020 wrote:
Don’t listen to those saying it’s a waste of money, good suspension that is tuned for your abilities will make you a better rider down the...
Don’t listen to those saying it’s a waste of money, good suspension that is tuned for your abilities will make you a better rider down the road and way more enjoyable while doing it. If you invest in the kyb you can always sell them down the road or keep them and stick woth ktm/husky/gasgas forever and you’ll be set for life.
chasetwo79 wrote:
No one is saying don’t get good suspension. I’m saying they don’t need A kit at that level ever and anyone suggesting a C rider get...
No one is saying don’t get good suspension. I’m saying they don’t need A kit at that level ever and anyone suggesting a C rider get that is just driving up the cost for entry level racing already more than it is which ruins things for small race promoters.
ben5020 wrote:
By good suspension I mean kyb inserts/ohlins/mxtech etc, not necessarily the a kit versions which to be honest the kyb “a kit” is really just coatings...
By good suspension I mean kyb inserts/ohlins/mxtech etc, not necessarily the a kit versions which to be honest the kyb “a kit” is really just coatings. Spring conversions on a ktm/husky/gasgas is a huge improvement over stock air forks. I get what you are saying but in all reality if he keeps riding the suspension will payoff 10 fold not only in the fun factor but confidence as well as consistency, air forks suck! Lol
I don’t think the new model AERs are bad forks at all. I have 25 hours on a 2020 fc450 after having drop in Ohlins on the previous platform and now that I’ve dialed in my shock and spring, I’ve honestly not had nearly this issues that people scream about here. I’ve ridden the bike on California hard pack and Florida sand in the past few months and I haven’t seen much of an issue. I’ve honestly been thinking of sending them off to Kreft and just staying with the air. David Pingree himself said it felt as good or better than any A kit suspension he has ever ridden.

Previous AERs were turds but they have gotten to a really strong starting point and are only going to improve from here on out.

There is zero world where new model AERs properly tuned are holding back a C rider. They don’t even use the forks full range of motion consistently enough to matter.

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3
9/23/2020 12:45pm
jeffoff wrote:
Have the KYB kit setup by Technical Touch, very pleased with the investment. Comes with their black axle lugs, still possible to switch back to AER...
Have the KYB kit setup by Technical Touch, very pleased with the investment.
Comes with their black axle lugs, still possible to switch back to AER internals & lugs.
Rotaholic wrote:
Just about to order mine, was yours valved by TT close to what you wanted it was it valved by a shop you purchased through?
aees wrote:
TT valved mine, or sent me the specs rather. They where way of on preload and oil level. 5.0nm 355 oil and 9mm preload for my...
TT valved mine, or sent me the specs rather. They where way of on preload and oil level. 5.0nm 355 oil and 9mm preload for my sxf 450 2018 and 2019 was way to much with 48nm rear (trax and WP OEM). 5.0 300ml 5mm preload gives good balance.
I have the insert kit set up from TT which came with 4.7nm and 350ml oil (80kg expert) on a 20 KTM 350

Forks felt hard initially and couldn't get them to bottom (I ring was 1-2” up)

Now running 4.5nm with 350ml oil which feels much plusher but some times a little soft on big bumps or hard landing.. thinking of trying 4.6nm

Have another set revalved by a tuner also running 4.5nm but not as good as the set valved by TT. much harsher on any size bumps but still bottoms consistently.
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Pirate421
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9/23/2020 1:28pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2020 3:56pm
My issue isn’t with them being bad by any means. I actually like the AER I can tell that they seem to have a bit more stickiness if that means anything and the initial plushness is what I’m after. Going to keep playing with them though. It seems like when I get them plush on bigger jumps they want to bottom but when I get them stiff enough to not bottom they are a bit Too harsh for the chop and have a dead/hollow feeling. They only have 6 hrs on them so maybe they need to break in more.
Johnny Depp
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9/23/2020 1:48pm
Pirate421 wrote:
My issue isn’t with them being bad by any means. I actually like the AER I can tell that they seem to have a bit more...
My issue isn’t with them being bad by any means. I actually like the AER I can tell that they seem to have a bit more stickiness if that means anything and the initial plushness is what I’m after. Going to keep playing with them though. It seems like when I get them plush on bigger jumps they want to bottom but when I get them stiff enough to not bottom they are a bit Too harsh for the chop and have a dead/hollow feeling. They only have 6 hrs on them so maybe they need to break in more.
Nailed it. Read the '21 KTM 450 test on the home page and he says the same thing. On top of that, listen to the video, the pressure had to be reset several times during the day as they get warmer the pressure goes up. Not all that new, same problem we had with Fox Airshox decades ago.
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Braaaphole
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9/23/2020 3:03pm
chasetwo79 wrote:
No one is saying don’t get good suspension. I’m saying they don’t need A kit at that level ever and anyone suggesting a C rider get...
No one is saying don’t get good suspension. I’m saying they don’t need A kit at that level ever and anyone suggesting a C rider get that is just driving up the cost for entry level racing already more than it is which ruins things for small race promoters.
I didn't give all the details to this, just that I'm a Vet C rider. In no way do I believe I need A kit suspension for what I'm doing, a solid revalve would suit me just fine. I have a 350 now that's been revalved by Powerband and it's great.

The sole reason I asked about the A kit is because the bike is a current factory bike that was raced at Loretta's by a factory supported rider. The bike is pretty trick and I was supposed to be getting the bike as it was. When it went back to the factory for a full rebuild, they removed the A kit suspension off of it. Given what the bike is, I really wanted to keep it original and leave A kit suspension on it. I could, but I really can't justify the money. However, I still want to put some trick suspension on it and I really want to convert the forks to spring.
My kid will also be riding the bike to start transitioning him off of the 85. I'll give him about a year to play around on this and probably buy him a new 125 next year and set it up for him.

I'm really leaning towards the MX Tech Lucky and coating the forks. I like what I'm reading about that setup. I won't get the bike until after Pala, so I have some time to figure it out.
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Broseph
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9/23/2020 6:50pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2020 6:53pm
Braaaphole wrote:
I didn't give all the details to this, just that I'm a Vet C rider. In no way do I believe I need A kit suspension...
I didn't give all the details to this, just that I'm a Vet C rider. In no way do I believe I need A kit suspension for what I'm doing, a solid revalve would suit me just fine. I have a 350 now that's been revalved by Powerband and it's great.

The sole reason I asked about the A kit is because the bike is a current factory bike that was raced at Loretta's by a factory supported rider. The bike is pretty trick and I was supposed to be getting the bike as it was. When it went back to the factory for a full rebuild, they removed the A kit suspension off of it. Given what the bike is, I really wanted to keep it original and leave A kit suspension on it. I could, but I really can't justify the money. However, I still want to put some trick suspension on it and I really want to convert the forks to spring.
My kid will also be riding the bike to start transitioning him off of the 85. I'll give him about a year to play around on this and probably buy him a new 125 next year and set it up for him.

I'm really leaning towards the MX Tech Lucky and coating the forks. I like what I'm reading about that setup. I won't get the bike until after Pala, so I have some time to figure it out.
In my experience, the Lucky Gen 1 was good. Nice improvement over AER and the Huck valve is amazing. The midvalve was a little on/off, but the feedback wasn’t harsh.

The Gen 2 (Lucky Carbon), however, is absolutely incredible. Front end traction like you wouldn’t believe. Completely progressive through the stroke at varying speeds. This is the first fork I’ve had where I can say with full confidence it’s better than the SSS on my Yamaha.

All these notes are valving dependent of course. Everyone has their own preference and the Luckys can be tuned any which way.

Also: I’m not fast. But I’m absolutely faster on Lucky Carbons than AER. Increased confidence in your equipment allows you to pick up speed regardless of skill level.
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aees
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9/23/2020 9:58pm
Rotaholic wrote:
Just about to order mine, was yours valved by TT close to what you wanted it was it valved by a shop you purchased through?
aees wrote:
TT valved mine, or sent me the specs rather. They where way of on preload and oil level. 5.0nm 355 oil and 9mm preload for my...
TT valved mine, or sent me the specs rather. They where way of on preload and oil level. 5.0nm 355 oil and 9mm preload for my sxf 450 2018 and 2019 was way to much with 48nm rear (trax and WP OEM). 5.0 300ml 5mm preload gives good balance.
I have the insert kit set up from TT which came with 4.7nm and 350ml oil (80kg expert) on a 20 KTM 350 Forks felt hard...
I have the insert kit set up from TT which came with 4.7nm and 350ml oil (80kg expert) on a 20 KTM 350

Forks felt hard initially and couldn't get them to bottom (I ring was 1-2” up)

Now running 4.5nm with 350ml oil which feels much plusher but some times a little soft on big bumps or hard landing.. thinking of trying 4.6nm

Have another set revalved by a tuner also running 4.5nm but not as good as the set valved by TT. much harsher on any size bumps but still bottoms consistently.
Drop the oil to 300, had same issuing with 2" left of stroke. It also create harshness
9/23/2020 11:11pm
I had Xplor forks, aer forks, SXS closed cartridge, SXS with Öhlins inserts, cone valves, closed cartridge forks with cone valve internals and now a WP AER with KYB inserts by Technical Touch...

So I pretty much tested them all - I prefer the KYB conversion. Except from the XPLOR forks, all the others were quite good with different ups and downs. But the KYB is plush, doesn´t bottom out, is relatively cheap and can be re-converted. I´d go that route again in a heartbeat.

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T-Fish
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Fantasy
9/24/2020 8:38am
Everyone who owns a Yamaha raves about how great the KYB suspension is. I would try the KYB conversion. The fact that there is a pair...
Everyone who owns a Yamaha raves about how great the KYB suspension is. I would try the KYB conversion. The fact that there is a pair of used Cone Valves on the buy sell every other day doesn't speak great for how good they are. I my self have cone valve and wouldn't buy them again. The only reason I bought them is because the 4CS was just sooooo bad
The reason you see so many for sale is because they’re not overpriced like KYB and Showa A-kit stuff. Almost anyone can go drop a few grand for a new set, or even less for a used set. Spending $10k for KYB or Showa stuff isn’t likely for most.
9/24/2020 8:57am
Damping on the AER can be very good, but won’t have a spring fork feel. I have a set of CVs setup by Enzo (originally done...
Damping on the AER can be very good, but won’t have a spring fork feel.

I have a set of CVs setup by Enzo (originally done by Powerband). They are great. Also have some WP CC setup by Enzo and they are very good.

Craig at Enzo said told me that the KYB kit was better than the CV. Haven’t had a bad setup from him in 6 bikes. My next pricey set of suspension will be the KYB conversion.

If not KYB, then I’d seriously consider the Lucky kit or the Dal Saggio (very similar to the WP CC).
How did powerband and enzos valving compare, which did you like better?
cloud41
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9/24/2020 11:00am
Buy wp a kit forks, move to another bike or sell when done, and come out right around where you’d be sinking money into upgrading the oem forks but with top notch forks.
erik_94COBRA
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9/24/2020 12:45pm
Damping on the AER can be very good, but won’t have a spring fork feel. I have a set of CVs setup by Enzo (originally done...
Damping on the AER can be very good, but won’t have a spring fork feel.

I have a set of CVs setup by Enzo (originally done by Powerband). They are great. Also have some WP CC setup by Enzo and they are very good.

Craig at Enzo said told me that the KYB kit was better than the CV. Haven’t had a bad setup from him in 6 bikes. My next pricey set of suspension will be the KYB conversion.

If not KYB, then I’d seriously consider the Lucky kit or the Dal Saggio (very similar to the WP CC).
How did powerband and enzos valving compare, which did you like better?
Powerband valving (using the Cones for mid valve ) was good and bad. Damping on medium to hard hits was great, but the front end feel and damping over smaller chop was not great. For a faster rider or someone who isn't as worried about front end feel, they would probably be fine. I could have given it longer to get used to the setup, but didn't want to wait so had them revalved by Enzo after less than 10 hours. As an FYI, this feeling I had is more due to the design of the CV midvalve compared to the valving settings of Powerband. I bought the CV forks and SuperTrax shock from them valved for me for a great price.

Enzo uses a traditional midvalve and shim stack. For me, this setup is better for probably 90% of the time I'm on the track. The only place it isn't quite as good is really hard hits (i.e. slap down landings, under/over jump, etc.). And then it's still fine. Front end feel is great, damping is controlled and plush, bottoming is better than AER/CC/etc.

All that to say, the WP CV are great forks if they're valved anywhere in the ballpark of your weight/skill. I think many tuners have a good experience base with the KYB kit and can get closer to what most like more quickly. It might also be that riders are more accustomed to the feel of a twin chamber fork with a conventional midvalve/shim stack. Pretty sure I fit into that category.

I think a KYB conversion along with a revalved stock shock (maybe with bladder kit) would be hard to beat performance-wise. Then can also be serviced by basically anyone as well.
Johnny Depp
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9/24/2020 2:47pm
Very revealing look at the changes inside the guts of the '21 AER.

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Pirate421
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9/24/2020 3:24pm
I think after doing some more research, personally, I may throw the $$ at the lucky carbons. They seem to be a little less than the kyb and their marketing and reviews has me about sold. Do any of you who have the luckys just send yours right to Mx tech or did you use a local tuner? MXT is a few hrs from me so about the same distance or closer than any tuners I’ve found.

The local race tech dealer wanted me to do their sff spring conversion sea with gold valves and bladders for the rear and basically everything they have. Doesn’t sound great to me.
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RF145
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9/24/2020 10:24pm
On my 2019 FC 350, I got the stock forks to work ok after playing with the clickers and air pressure over a two month period. Nothing like my Yamaha SSS forks though. Still, good enough that if I had no other choices I could be ok with them.
The thing I was missing though was front end feel. I always felt the initial compliance was missing.
So, I went with the KYB Factory Kit and could not be any happier. Bonus points for setting and forgetting.
Worth every penny.
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soggy
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9/25/2020 3:11am
Pirate421 wrote:
I think after doing some more research, personally, I may throw the $$ at the lucky carbons. They seem to be a little less than the...
I think after doing some more research, personally, I may throw the $$ at the lucky carbons. They seem to be a little less than the kyb and their marketing and reviews has me about sold. Do any of you who have the luckys just send yours right to Mx tech or did you use a local tuner? MXT is a few hrs from me so about the same distance or closer than any tuners I’ve found.

The local race tech dealer wanted me to do their sff spring conversion sea with gold valves and bladders for the rear and basically everything they have. Doesn’t sound great to me.
Yep the set I rode was installed and setup by MXT. They have great settings for the shock too. I have the RT sff conversion and shock bladder, while it's very good it's not quite as nice as the MXT set up.
WFO
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9/25/2020 5:13am
Cone valve and Traxx for the win.
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Bruce372
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9/25/2020 7:54am
Lol... you guys go on like the air forks are unrideable and bolting up Yamaha forks turned you into 2006 Stefan everts.

Its not most bikes with spring forks don't come with plenty of complaints from reviews for bad damping or spring rate.

As for they don't feel planted, maybe strap 2lbs of lead to each outer tube and see how that feels? Maybe the different feeling is from 3 to 4 lbs less weight in the front end vs different spring?



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Broseph
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9/25/2020 9:05am
Bruce372 wrote:
Lol... you guys go on like the air forks are unrideable and bolting up Yamaha forks turned you into 2006 Stefan everts. Its not most bikes...
Lol... you guys go on like the air forks are unrideable and bolting up Yamaha forks turned you into 2006 Stefan everts.

Its not most bikes with spring forks don't come with plenty of complaints from reviews for bad damping or spring rate.

As for they don't feel planted, maybe strap 2lbs of lead to each outer tube and see how that feels? Maybe the different feeling is from 3 to 4 lbs less weight in the front end vs different spring?



Or maybe spring forks actually do track better by design and the entire industry is not wrong by preferring springs over air?
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Braaaphole
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9/25/2020 9:25am
Bruce372 wrote:
Lol... you guys go on like the air forks are unrideable and bolting up Yamaha forks turned you into 2006 Stefan everts. Its not most bikes...
Lol... you guys go on like the air forks are unrideable and bolting up Yamaha forks turned you into 2006 Stefan everts.

Its not most bikes with spring forks don't come with plenty of complaints from reviews for bad damping or spring rate.

As for they don't feel planted, maybe strap 2lbs of lead to each outer tube and see how that feels? Maybe the different feeling is from 3 to 4 lbs less weight in the front end vs different spring?



Or maybe some of us have ridden spring forks for 20+ years so that's the feel we are comfortable with.
I gave air forks a try and got them really good, but when I jump on a bike with spring forks it feels better to me. Most likely because I have exponentially more time on spring than I do air. At 40+ years old, nothing is going to make up for that.
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Bruce372
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9/25/2020 9:50am
Lol. Yeah, you guys are right. Dropping $2000 to $3500 on a new set of forks is all thats holding me back from dominating C class.
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yz133rider
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9/25/2020 12:36pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Lol. Yeah, you guys are right. Dropping $2000 to $3500 on a new set of forks is all thats holding me back from dominating C class.
Is this your new crusade? Tired of bashing Suzuki’s so now it’s time to bash people for getting good suspension?
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Broseph
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9/25/2020 2:41pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Lol. Yeah, you guys are right. Dropping $2000 to $3500 on a new set of forks is all thats holding me back from dominating C class.
yz133rider wrote:
Is this your new crusade? Tired of bashing Suzuki’s so now it’s time to bash people for getting good suspension?
A quick glance shows he just got a new bike with air forks. He might be trying to make himself feel better about his choice by putting others down.
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