What "changes" Did They Make to Tomac's Bike?

Derek Harris 4/16/2019 9:23am
4/16/2019 9:23am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2019 9:27am
Derek Harris wrote:
The altitude knocked off some HP and he rode better... Partly because he cant' smoke the clutch as easily with less HP. Wouldn't be surprised if...
The altitude knocked off some HP and he rode better...
Partly because he cant' smoke the clutch as easily with less HP.

Wouldn't be surprised if true.
yz133rider wrote:
At the same time wouldnt he be smoking the clutch more asking for more juice non stop.
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage

There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes.

It wasn't talked about - but in houston - I watched him destroy the clutch in under 12 minutes each main.
The breather hose started puking smoke each moto if you watched carefully - and the bike just wouldn't go late in each main.

He uses the clutch to regulate power - not to get more power. On a 450 - there isn't a single rider out there who "needs more power" than a stock 450 produces.

The traction flat out doesn't exist to put any more power down and the tracks aren't fast enough where the power would show it self. It's why the 250s' are right there in lap time...and practically do every obstacle the 450's do.

Most people don't really study this - but HP shows itself on long fast straights...this is easily evident in moto gp or f1

All the cars/bikes are practically identical until the LOOONG straights - where you may see a top speed difference

In motogp - that's all HP (not so much aero)

Why don't the more powerful bikes out accelerate the slower ones coming off the turns?
They are ALL traction limited and using full traction control practically everywhere around the track.

In moto the same applies. 450 or 250 - they run basically the same tire now. It's the same dirt - and there is the same limit you can put down.
Riders like roczen - or savatgy - use the throttle to regulate power. IMHO this the right way most of the time.
Tomac is like Carmichael - the uses the clutch. This CAN be successful as proven via RC and tomac
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Beaudzz118 4/16/2019 9:25am
4/16/2019 9:25am
Came to the conclusion that less engine oil reduces engine braking and increases win potential ?
2
Moto520
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Moto520 4/16/2019 9:27am
4/16/2019 9:27am
I think he just felt better the last couple of races and he would have won whether the bike was changed or not.
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Wandell
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Wandell 4/16/2019 9:29am
4/16/2019 9:29am
Jeezz!!! Obviously they slightly backed off the torque on the rear sprocket bolts, which resulted in more "feel" in the rear! Don't you guys pay attention to these Vital posts!? SMH
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Kennyfreemoney 4/16/2019 9:43am
4/16/2019 9:43am
Arkmx wrote:
Everyone does better after a good..... [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/04/16/339240/s1200_Bang_Energy_Drinks_2000x.jpg[/img] :silly:
Everyone does better after a good.....




Silly
Little off topic but.. Looks like Bang is going after Monster. Maybe we'll get "Bang Body Fuel Supercross" soon

https://www.cspdailynews.com/beverages/reign-launch-ramps-energy-drink-…
Squirrelings 4/16/2019 9:48am
4/16/2019 9:48am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2019 9:48am
Arkmx wrote:
Everyone does better after a good..... [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/04/16/339240/s1200_Bang_Energy_Drinks_2000x.jpg[/img] :silly:
Everyone does better after a good.....




Silly
Kennyfreemoney wrote:
Little off topic but.. Looks like Bang is going after Monster. Maybe we'll get "Bang Body Fuel Supercross" soon

https://www.cspdailynews.com/beverages/reign-launch-ramps-energy-drink-…
I hope they stick it to Monster.
4
ML512
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ML512 4/16/2019 10:07am
4/16/2019 10:07am
Derek Harris wrote:
The altitude knocked off some HP and he rode better... Partly because he cant' smoke the clutch as easily with less HP. Wouldn't be surprised if...
The altitude knocked off some HP and he rode better...
Partly because he cant' smoke the clutch as easily with less HP.

Wouldn't be surprised if true.
yz133rider wrote:
At the same time wouldnt he be smoking the clutch more asking for more juice non stop.
Derek Harris wrote:
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes...
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage

There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes.

It wasn't talked about - but in houston - I watched him destroy the clutch in under 12 minutes each main.
The breather hose started puking smoke each moto if you watched carefully - and the bike just wouldn't go late in each main.

He uses the clutch to regulate power - not to get more power. On a 450 - there isn't a single rider out there who "needs more power" than a stock 450 produces.

The traction flat out doesn't exist to put any more power down and the tracks aren't fast enough where the power would show it self. It's why the 250s' are right there in lap time...and practically do every obstacle the 450's do.

Most people don't really study this - but HP shows itself on long fast straights...this is easily evident in moto gp or f1

All the cars/bikes are practically identical until the LOOONG straights - where you may see a top speed difference

In motogp - that's all HP (not so much aero)

Why don't the more powerful bikes out accelerate the slower ones coming off the turns?
They are ALL traction limited and using full traction control practically everywhere around the track.

In moto the same applies. 450 or 250 - they run basically the same tire now. It's the same dirt - and there is the same limit you can put down.
Riders like roczen - or savatgy - use the throttle to regulate power. IMHO this the right way most of the time.
Tomac is like Carmichael - the uses the clutch. This CAN be successful as proven via RC and tomac
Stewart was another rider with very minimal clutch usage, just shifts like a maniac and kept it in the meat of the power at all times.
11
DEMONDAVE
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DEMONDAVE 4/16/2019 10:26am
4/16/2019 10:26am
finally after 143 years they finally listened to Jody and went up 1 tooth on rear sprocket
13
MZ193
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MZ193 4/16/2019 10:42am
4/16/2019 10:42am
There are more ways to regulate power. Throttle, clutch, rear brake, electronic even teeth on the rear sprocket.. So..
zehn
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zehn 4/16/2019 10:58am
4/16/2019 10:58am
kb228 wrote:
Maybe im totally ignorant on something, but why would anyone but the rider have the choice to completely say no to a change that could help...
Maybe im totally ignorant on something, but why would anyone but the rider have the choice to completely say no to a change that could help the rider? The team can make suggestions and argue for a change, but the choice should be the rider’s at the end of the day. Theyre the one riding it and producing results.
Because sometimes you need somebody in the pits who has a certain amount of institutionalized friction when it comes to setup, so you don't have riders going all over the place with setups, and ultimately wasting testing time/effort and even regressing. Dungey was known to do this. Sometimes he'd be unhappy with the setup and want to change something drastic. De Coster just told him to adjust to the bike and it usually worked out in the end.

The perceived problem in the Kawi pits was that MW had too much control over setups and wasn't willing or flexible enough to try changes to the bike.

That's just my understanding of how the Kawi "drama" has played out. We've had several former ME Kawi riders and knowledgeable industry types that have supported this narrative.
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kb228
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kb228 4/16/2019 10:58am
4/16/2019 10:58am
Derek Harris wrote:
The altitude knocked off some HP and he rode better... Partly because he cant' smoke the clutch as easily with less HP. Wouldn't be surprised if...
The altitude knocked off some HP and he rode better...
Partly because he cant' smoke the clutch as easily with less HP.

Wouldn't be surprised if true.
yz133rider wrote:
At the same time wouldnt he be smoking the clutch more asking for more juice non stop.
Derek Harris wrote:
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes...
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage

There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes.

It wasn't talked about - but in houston - I watched him destroy the clutch in under 12 minutes each main.
The breather hose started puking smoke each moto if you watched carefully - and the bike just wouldn't go late in each main.

He uses the clutch to regulate power - not to get more power. On a 450 - there isn't a single rider out there who "needs more power" than a stock 450 produces.

The traction flat out doesn't exist to put any more power down and the tracks aren't fast enough where the power would show it self. It's why the 250s' are right there in lap time...and practically do every obstacle the 450's do.

Most people don't really study this - but HP shows itself on long fast straights...this is easily evident in moto gp or f1

All the cars/bikes are practically identical until the LOOONG straights - where you may see a top speed difference

In motogp - that's all HP (not so much aero)

Why don't the more powerful bikes out accelerate the slower ones coming off the turns?
They are ALL traction limited and using full traction control practically everywhere around the track.

In moto the same applies. 450 or 250 - they run basically the same tire now. It's the same dirt - and there is the same limit you can put down.
Riders like roczen - or savatgy - use the throttle to regulate power. IMHO this the right way most of the time.
Tomac is like Carmichael - the uses the clutch. This CAN be successful as proven via RC and tomac
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
ML512
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ML512 4/16/2019 11:13am
4/16/2019 11:13am
yz133rider wrote:
At the same time wouldnt he be smoking the clutch more asking for more juice non stop.
Derek Harris wrote:
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes...
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage

There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes.

It wasn't talked about - but in houston - I watched him destroy the clutch in under 12 minutes each main.
The breather hose started puking smoke each moto if you watched carefully - and the bike just wouldn't go late in each main.

He uses the clutch to regulate power - not to get more power. On a 450 - there isn't a single rider out there who "needs more power" than a stock 450 produces.

The traction flat out doesn't exist to put any more power down and the tracks aren't fast enough where the power would show it self. It's why the 250s' are right there in lap time...and practically do every obstacle the 450's do.

Most people don't really study this - but HP shows itself on long fast straights...this is easily evident in moto gp or f1

All the cars/bikes are practically identical until the LOOONG straights - where you may see a top speed difference

In motogp - that's all HP (not so much aero)

Why don't the more powerful bikes out accelerate the slower ones coming off the turns?
They are ALL traction limited and using full traction control practically everywhere around the track.

In moto the same applies. 450 or 250 - they run basically the same tire now. It's the same dirt - and there is the same limit you can put down.
Riders like roczen - or savatgy - use the throttle to regulate power. IMHO this the right way most of the time.
Tomac is like Carmichael - the uses the clutch. This CAN be successful as proven via RC and tomac
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he uses the clutch to restrict power. From what I remember, Dean wilson is similar in this regard where the rider holds the throttle open and uses the clutch to restrict power when needed. If the bike is making less power at altitude, less clutch would be used to restrict power because the bike isn’t putting out as much. Instead the bike is slower so Eli uses the clutch less because there is less power to restrict.
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mattyhamz2 4/16/2019 11:25am
4/16/2019 11:25am
Derek Harris wrote:
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes...
Tomac IMHO needs to revamp his clutch usage

There is no reason to use it so hard on a 450 that it can't go 35 minutes.

It wasn't talked about - but in houston - I watched him destroy the clutch in under 12 minutes each main.
The breather hose started puking smoke each moto if you watched carefully - and the bike just wouldn't go late in each main.

He uses the clutch to regulate power - not to get more power. On a 450 - there isn't a single rider out there who "needs more power" than a stock 450 produces.

The traction flat out doesn't exist to put any more power down and the tracks aren't fast enough where the power would show it self. It's why the 250s' are right there in lap time...and practically do every obstacle the 450's do.

Most people don't really study this - but HP shows itself on long fast straights...this is easily evident in moto gp or f1

All the cars/bikes are practically identical until the LOOONG straights - where you may see a top speed difference

In motogp - that's all HP (not so much aero)

Why don't the more powerful bikes out accelerate the slower ones coming off the turns?
They are ALL traction limited and using full traction control practically everywhere around the track.

In moto the same applies. 450 or 250 - they run basically the same tire now. It's the same dirt - and there is the same limit you can put down.
Riders like roczen - or savatgy - use the throttle to regulate power. IMHO this the right way most of the time.
Tomac is like Carmichael - the uses the clutch. This CAN be successful as proven via RC and tomac
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
ML512 wrote:
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he...
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he uses the clutch to restrict power. From what I remember, Dean wilson is similar in this regard where the rider holds the throttle open and uses the clutch to restrict power when needed. If the bike is making less power at altitude, less clutch would be used to restrict power because the bike isn’t putting out as much. Instead the bike is slower so Eli uses the clutch less because there is less power to restrict.
Thanks for clarifying that Michael!
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SweetDaddy
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SweetDaddy 4/16/2019 11:29am
4/16/2019 11:29am
ML512 wrote:
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they...
I heard a big one that was being considered a few weeks back but Williamson objected to was to change the trail and rake. So they may have finally got to test that.
kb228 wrote:
Maybe im totally ignorant on something, but why would anyone but the rider have the choice to completely say no to a change that could help...
Maybe im totally ignorant on something, but why would anyone but the rider have the choice to completely say no to a change that could help the rider? The team can make suggestions and argue for a change, but the choice should be the rider’s at the end of the day. Theyre the one riding it and producing results.
They must not get paid OT
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slipdog
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slipdog 4/16/2019 11:35am
4/16/2019 11:35am
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
ML512 wrote:
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he...
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he uses the clutch to restrict power. From what I remember, Dean wilson is similar in this regard where the rider holds the throttle open and uses the clutch to restrict power when needed. If the bike is making less power at altitude, less clutch would be used to restrict power because the bike isn’t putting out as much. Instead the bike is slower so Eli uses the clutch less because there is less power to restrict.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Thanks for clarifying that Michael!
I believe it's called "Slipping" the clutch, but I wouldn't know anything about that...
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mattyhamz2 4/16/2019 11:37am
4/16/2019 11:37am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2019 11:37am
ML512 wrote:
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he...
Some of you are missing Derek’s point, he’s not saying Tomac is a clutch abuser that pops the clutch to get a reaction but that he uses the clutch to restrict power. From what I remember, Dean wilson is similar in this regard where the rider holds the throttle open and uses the clutch to restrict power when needed. If the bike is making less power at altitude, less clutch would be used to restrict power because the bike isn’t putting out as much. Instead the bike is slower so Eli uses the clutch less because there is less power to restrict.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Thanks for clarifying that Michael!
slipdog wrote:
I believe it's called "Slipping" the clutch, but I wouldn't know anything about that...
Woohoo I see what you did there! You really slipped that one in there.
4
Mit12
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Mit12 4/16/2019 11:44am
4/16/2019 11:44am
kb228 wrote:
Maybe im totally ignorant on something, but why would anyone but the rider have the choice to completely say no to a change that could help...
Maybe im totally ignorant on something, but why would anyone but the rider have the choice to completely say no to a change that could help the rider? The team can make suggestions and argue for a change, but the choice should be the rider’s at the end of the day. Theyre the one riding it and producing results.
Ask yamaha that question. Yamaha is know for fighting changes that riders want.
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nickm
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nickm 4/16/2019 11:45am
4/16/2019 11:45am
Two pressure changes:

1. Webb is racing for the title not the win.
2. Tomac is racing for the win not the title.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 4/16/2019 12:12pm
4/16/2019 12:12pm
The pink powerband did it

He was using that crappy green one
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BobKerr
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BobKerr 4/16/2019 12:14pm
4/16/2019 12:14pm
Torqued the sprocket bolts.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 4/16/2019 12:29pm
4/16/2019 12:29pm
New muffler bearings?
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eric513anderson 4/16/2019 12:43pm
4/16/2019 12:43pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
IIRC last year? they made a change after a few races to the ride height and put more weight on the front, and his results instantly...
IIRC last year? they made a change after a few races to the ride height and put more weight on the front, and his results instantly changed for the good. Perhaps he has long desired the same changes to the '19, and MW got in the way of that. He looks comfortable now, probably at home eating a pizza and taking a nap.
Your correct. I can’t remember if it was during SX or outdoors but I do remember them saying they added or took away 1mm of sag and that made all the difference.
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kpiper
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kpiper 4/16/2019 1:03pm
4/16/2019 1:03pm
I don't think the pressure of the championship all of a sudden flips like a switch and one weekend you are so 'locked up' that you roll a jump and let MM25 by you at the finish line

Then all of a sudden, seven days later (when you still can win the title) you have decided the championship is over and there is no pressure so you ride super fast on the bike and have no problem riding 20 minutes and blowing everyone away.

It just does not work like that. They did something that makes him feel more relaxed on the bike.

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Derek Harris 4/16/2019 1:31pm
4/16/2019 1:31pm
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
In my post I said Houston...not the round before denver

It was puffing smoke around the linkage area notably at the end of the first whoop section and wouldn't start until about 8 minutes in.

At that point - he was going no where at the end of the whoops and visibly the bike just wouldnt go.
It was clearly a clutch completely toasted... and I think thats why we witnessed a really poor eli. Why didn't he jump the finish?? Well - I think the bike was literally limping in.

I think the switch to hydrualic (which I NEVER UNDERSTOOD why people assume that makes a clutch last longer or "not fade" - it only helps lever fade)
has made the issue worse for Eli. He used to be able to tell off cable slack what was going on and how much cluthc was left

Now the lever feel is always the same - and it makes ruining a clutch way easier....



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seth505
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seth505 4/16/2019 1:38pm
4/16/2019 1:38pm
Added a Roostboost.
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BobPA
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BobPA 4/16/2019 1:46pm
4/16/2019 1:46pm
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
Derek Harris wrote:
In my post I said Houston...not the round before denver It was puffing smoke around the linkage area notably at the end of the first whoop...
In my post I said Houston...not the round before denver

It was puffing smoke around the linkage area notably at the end of the first whoop section and wouldn't start until about 8 minutes in.

At that point - he was going no where at the end of the whoops and visibly the bike just wouldnt go.
It was clearly a clutch completely toasted... and I think thats why we witnessed a really poor eli. Why didn't he jump the finish?? Well - I think the bike was literally limping in.

I think the switch to hydrualic (which I NEVER UNDERSTOOD why people assume that makes a clutch last longer or "not fade" - it only helps lever fade)
has made the issue worse for Eli. He used to be able to tell off cable slack what was going on and how much cluthc was left

Now the lever feel is always the same - and it makes ruining a clutch way easier....



He had plenty of speed to at least double the finish line jump....
2
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 4/16/2019 1:47pm
4/16/2019 1:47pm
He has a hydraulic clutch now!
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kpiper
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kpiper 4/16/2019 2:01pm
4/16/2019 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2019 2:32pm
kb228 wrote:
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from...
Kawasaki said the smoke was coolant hose routing. With less power, one uses the clutch even more no doubt. For example, my fat ass going from my 450 where i use almost no clutch, to wailing on the clutch on my 250f to get more power. Cant imagine less power means less clutch. Theres an inverse relationship with power and clutch usage.
Derek Harris wrote:
In my post I said Houston...not the round before denver It was puffing smoke around the linkage area notably at the end of the first whoop...
In my post I said Houston...not the round before denver

It was puffing smoke around the linkage area notably at the end of the first whoop section and wouldn't start until about 8 minutes in.

At that point - he was going no where at the end of the whoops and visibly the bike just wouldnt go.
It was clearly a clutch completely toasted... and I think thats why we witnessed a really poor eli. Why didn't he jump the finish?? Well - I think the bike was literally limping in.

I think the switch to hydrualic (which I NEVER UNDERSTOOD why people assume that makes a clutch last longer or "not fade" - it only helps lever fade)
has made the issue worse for Eli. He used to be able to tell off cable slack what was going on and how much cluthc was left

Now the lever feel is always the same - and it makes ruining a clutch way easier....



How come his bike only smoked in one race this whole year? And in the LCQ when it is so short? Eli even commented he rode the LCQ very conservatively.

I have a friend who is a former MX National champion and he talked about using the clutch in the exact same way so I think it is a common technique. I would use the clutch like that too except I have to buy my own! Smile
2
EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 4/16/2019 2:17pm
4/16/2019 2:17pm
New reeds
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MOTO732 4/16/2019 2:19pm
4/16/2019 2:19pm
People giving advice to Tomac how to ride and properly use his clutch. That's fucking hilarious. The winningest AMA rider for the past 3-4 years and here we are telling him how to ride and "prolong" his clutch to last an entire race. I bet he never even gave that a thought that. That's so classic Vital.
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