Japan defeats the world...until now? I don't understand

OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 2/13/2019 11:46am
2/13/2019 11:46am
KTM's like "The Little Engine that Could" kids story; I think I can, I think I can..... Smile
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kiwifan
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kiwifan 2/13/2019 12:33pm
2/13/2019 12:33pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
4csHATER wrote:
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self...
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self detonating.


The fix for this and any pro mx mechanic will tell you is to run a crank works or carillo rod,

well long story short carillo is owned by pankl, which is what comes factory in the ktm.

Also the mapping is terrible on jap bikes, and the valveseats have a chemical reaction to pump fuel causing them to deteriorate, and not only that but when the valve starts to seat too far into the head the collets get loose and then drop the valve.

Some bikes getting produced today (im not gonna say which ones). Are designed to fail on purpose.

I had to learn the hard way,

Yamahas have weak rods, terrible mapping,

kawis have a issue that needs revised on every model year for 250f and 450f which is a crankcase breather shaft that is a pressed fit that turns in crankcase, and then bottom end cant release pressure,

suzuki's aparently fixed there issue with transmissions.

hondas mapping is so slow it cant produce horsepower, thats why there motors last the longest, they are bullet proof but will never ever get you a holeshot.


KTM/Husqvarna is made with Del west valves, basically a vortex ignition, and carillo rod with cp piston, and hinson clutch cork.

so i mean in reality they are a bike that comes with all the upgrades factory except Ceramic bearings and copper seats and guides


i know im gonna get hated on for this post, but its the truth and ive rode all models
"hondas mapping is so slow it cant produce horsepower, thats why there motors last the longest, they are bullet proof but will never ever get you a holeshot." ...the 2019 Honda 450 has the most HP and torque of ALL 450's...get your facts right
2
dcg141
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dcg141 2/13/2019 1:03pm
2/13/2019 1:03pm
4csHATER wrote:
here you goPrice difference is ten dollars on a piston kit. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/13/325173/s1200_9E5D14A7_CA56_46C1_BDF1_75BC9E346F13.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/13/325172/s1200_A2D3BF0F_04C5_4133_9E8A_F10341D1EC80.jpg[/img]
here you goPrice difference is ten dollars on a piston kit.




kb228 wrote:
Wow that ktm piston is $100 more(retail/dealership price) than a CP piston and its not even as good. LOL LIGHTYEARS AHEAD BROS
You do realize that CP is owned my Pankl Racing Systems...who is owned by KTM. KTM 4 strokes come stock with CP pistons.
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kb228
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kb228 2/13/2019 1:14pm
2/13/2019 1:14pm
4csHATER wrote:
here you goPrice difference is ten dollars on a piston kit. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/13/325173/s1200_9E5D14A7_CA56_46C1_BDF1_75BC9E346F13.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/13/325172/s1200_A2D3BF0F_04C5_4133_9E8A_F10341D1EC80.jpg[/img]
here you goPrice difference is ten dollars on a piston kit.




kb228 wrote:
Wow that ktm piston is $100 more(retail/dealership price) than a CP piston and its not even as good. LOL LIGHTYEARS AHEAD BROS
dcg141 wrote:
You do realize that CP is owned my Pankl Racing Systems...who is owned by KTM. KTM 4 strokes come stock with CP pistons.
Then shame on ktm for marking up the price $100 to have their name on the box.
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mister2dt
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mister2dt 2/13/2019 1:51pm
2/13/2019 1:51pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
4csHATER wrote:
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self...
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self detonating.


The fix for this and any pro mx mechanic will tell you is to run a crank works or carillo rod,

well long story short carillo is owned by pankl, which is what comes factory in the ktm.

Also the mapping is terrible on jap bikes, and the valveseats have a chemical reaction to pump fuel causing them to deteriorate, and not only that but when the valve starts to seat too far into the head the collets get loose and then drop the valve.

Some bikes getting produced today (im not gonna say which ones). Are designed to fail on purpose.

I had to learn the hard way,

Yamahas have weak rods, terrible mapping,

kawis have a issue that needs revised on every model year for 250f and 450f which is a crankcase breather shaft that is a pressed fit that turns in crankcase, and then bottom end cant release pressure,

suzuki's aparently fixed there issue with transmissions.

hondas mapping is so slow it cant produce horsepower, thats why there motors last the longest, they are bullet proof but will never ever get you a holeshot.


KTM/Husqvarna is made with Del west valves, basically a vortex ignition, and carillo rod with cp piston, and hinson clutch cork.

so i mean in reality they are a bike that comes with all the upgrades factory except Ceramic bearings and copper seats and guides


i know im gonna get hated on for this post, but its the truth and ive rode all models
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing vs development. So technically, it is dishonest to state KTM r&d is ahead of the curve. They simply hired the right marketing people to develop ad campaigns that would ensure people paid a premium for their product built with outsourced pieces. Genius, and lazy at the same time. But, the orange brigade eats it up
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kiwifan
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kiwifan 2/13/2019 2:33pm
2/13/2019 2:33pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
4csHATER wrote:
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self...
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self detonating.


The fix for this and any pro mx mechanic will tell you is to run a crank works or carillo rod,

well long story short carillo is owned by pankl, which is what comes factory in the ktm.

Also the mapping is terrible on jap bikes, and the valveseats have a chemical reaction to pump fuel causing them to deteriorate, and not only that but when the valve starts to seat too far into the head the collets get loose and then drop the valve.

Some bikes getting produced today (im not gonna say which ones). Are designed to fail on purpose.

I had to learn the hard way,

Yamahas have weak rods, terrible mapping,

kawis have a issue that needs revised on every model year for 250f and 450f which is a crankcase breather shaft that is a pressed fit that turns in crankcase, and then bottom end cant release pressure,

suzuki's aparently fixed there issue with transmissions.

hondas mapping is so slow it cant produce horsepower, thats why there motors last the longest, they are bullet proof but will never ever get you a holeshot.


KTM/Husqvarna is made with Del west valves, basically a vortex ignition, and carillo rod with cp piston, and hinson clutch cork.

so i mean in reality they are a bike that comes with all the upgrades factory except Ceramic bearings and copper seats and guides


i know im gonna get hated on for this post, but its the truth and ive rode all models
mister2dt wrote:
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing...
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing vs development. So technically, it is dishonest to state KTM r&d is ahead of the curve. They simply hired the right marketing people to develop ad campaigns that would ensure people paid a premium for their product built with outsourced pieces. Genius, and lazy at the same time. But, the orange brigade eats it up
One thing KTM has done which has been a huge coup imho, is the limited edition bikes, VERY VERY VERY smart move and very well received by consumers...why not build next years bike and charge extra for it plus give their race teams an advantage...quite cunning
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mister2dt
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mister2dt 2/13/2019 2:39pm
2/13/2019 2:39pm
4csHATER wrote:
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self...
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self detonating.


The fix for this and any pro mx mechanic will tell you is to run a crank works or carillo rod,

well long story short carillo is owned by pankl, which is what comes factory in the ktm.

Also the mapping is terrible on jap bikes, and the valveseats have a chemical reaction to pump fuel causing them to deteriorate, and not only that but when the valve starts to seat too far into the head the collets get loose and then drop the valve.

Some bikes getting produced today (im not gonna say which ones). Are designed to fail on purpose.

I had to learn the hard way,

Yamahas have weak rods, terrible mapping,

kawis have a issue that needs revised on every model year for 250f and 450f which is a crankcase breather shaft that is a pressed fit that turns in crankcase, and then bottom end cant release pressure,

suzuki's aparently fixed there issue with transmissions.

hondas mapping is so slow it cant produce horsepower, thats why there motors last the longest, they are bullet proof but will never ever get you a holeshot.


KTM/Husqvarna is made with Del west valves, basically a vortex ignition, and carillo rod with cp piston, and hinson clutch cork.

so i mean in reality they are a bike that comes with all the upgrades factory except Ceramic bearings and copper seats and guides


i know im gonna get hated on for this post, but its the truth and ive rode all models
mister2dt wrote:
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing...
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing vs development. So technically, it is dishonest to state KTM r&d is ahead of the curve. They simply hired the right marketing people to develop ad campaigns that would ensure people paid a premium for their product built with outsourced pieces. Genius, and lazy at the same time. But, the orange brigade eats it up
kiwifan wrote:
One thing KTM has done which has been a huge coup imho, is the limited edition bikes, VERY VERY VERY smart move and very well received...
One thing KTM has done which has been a huge coup imho, is the limited edition bikes, VERY VERY VERY smart move and very well received by consumers...why not build next years bike and charge extra for it plus give their race teams an advantage...quite cunning
Yep. Was very surprised to see Honda do it with the Roczen model. But if a Japanese brand were to do it, it would be Honda. I dont ever see the big4 doing it on a regular basis, too much red tape to go through to make it happen. Advantage KTM, being smaller and more specific, they can do this with ease and as proven, extremely successfully
4csHATER
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4csHATER 2/13/2019 8:50pm
2/13/2019 8:50pm
731chopper wrote:
Yes, buying an OEM Kawasaki cylinder, piston and rings is almost $200 less than KTM for the last generation KX125. $799.59 for my KTM 150 compared...
Yes, buying an OEM Kawasaki cylinder, piston and rings is almost $200 less than KTM for the last generation KX125. $799.59 for my KTM 150 compared to $614.98 for the Kawasaki.

The OEM YZ 125 cylinder is $359.48 plus $97.21 for the piston and ring so $456.69, nearly $350 less than the KTM 150.

I take it that you're trying to imply that I can't compare the parts costs because Yamaha doesn't make a 150? The KTM 125 cylinder and piston kit is $689.11 so still over $200 more than Yamaha.

I don't believe KTM is the only brand standing behind their products. KTM attempts to market themselves as a premium brand and they've done a good job at it but that doesn't mean they're the only owns manufacturing a good product and taking care of their customers. The last Kawi I bought new, a 2014 KX250F, I paid less for than what a new KTM 125 would've cost and I never had any issues with it.

I don't like riding 4-strokes anymore so my modern bike is now a KTM and good on them for continuing to develop new 2-strokes but I don't buy this better quality than the Japanese bikes narrative that some people try to create.
The point was the jap bikes dont make a big bore small cc 125 goon.
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4csHATER
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4csHATER 2/13/2019 8:53pm
2/13/2019 8:53pm
mister2dt wrote:
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing...
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing vs development. So technically, it is dishonest to state KTM r&d is ahead of the curve. They simply hired the right marketing people to develop ad campaigns that would ensure people paid a premium for their product built with outsourced pieces. Genius, and lazy at the same time. But, the orange brigade eats it up
I never said they were light years ahead nor did i say there r&d was better or superior i just stated facts in the post above i like jap bikes too, there good with the right stuff but ill never buy a jap bike untill they take control of there quality again. They have let quality fall into the wrong hands lately.
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VRR7
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VRR7 2/13/2019 9:39pm
2/13/2019 9:39pm
WCRider wrote:
Deutsche Qualität
#434 wrote:
Although it's close to the border and a lot of germans work there, it‘s an austrian company.
No mostly Czechs - Cheap labour . And of course India since baja own half of KTM.
VRR7
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VRR7 2/13/2019 9:56pm
2/13/2019 9:56pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
4csHATER wrote:
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self...
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self detonating.


The fix for this and any pro mx mechanic will tell you is to run a crank works or carillo rod,

well long story short carillo is owned by pankl, which is what comes factory in the ktm.

Also the mapping is terrible on jap bikes, and the valveseats have a chemical reaction to pump fuel causing them to deteriorate, and not only that but when the valve starts to seat too far into the head the collets get loose and then drop the valve.

Some bikes getting produced today (im not gonna say which ones). Are designed to fail on purpose.

I had to learn the hard way,

Yamahas have weak rods, terrible mapping,

kawis have a issue that needs revised on every model year for 250f and 450f which is a crankcase breather shaft that is a pressed fit that turns in crankcase, and then bottom end cant release pressure,

suzuki's aparently fixed there issue with transmissions.

hondas mapping is so slow it cant produce horsepower, thats why there motors last the longest, they are bullet proof but will never ever get you a holeshot.


KTM/Husqvarna is made with Del west valves, basically a vortex ignition, and carillo rod with cp piston, and hinson clutch cork.

so i mean in reality they are a bike that comes with all the upgrades factory except Ceramic bearings and copper seats and guides


i know im gonna get hated on for this post, but its the truth and ive rode all models
mister2dt wrote:
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing...
One could argue, KTM hasnt really developed anything according to your post. They took what works in racing and built it as their stock bike. Outsourcing vs development. So technically, it is dishonest to state KTM r&d is ahead of the curve. They simply hired the right marketing people to develop ad campaigns that would ensure people paid a premium for their product built with outsourced pieces. Genius, and lazy at the same time. But, the orange brigade eats it up
KTM now have major shares in Pankl. KTM bought Husaberg to access 4T technology also they own WP and have a radiator manufacturer , what was amusing to me was Gasgas used the same radiators that KTM radiator factory manufactured yet if you bought them from Gasgas they cost half the price. KTM have a history of overpricing their parts , I think they have had to curb that and come more in line of late. KTM's only became reliable when they started outsourcing especially electronics. They used to follow the logic build everyhing in house and that produced unreliable bikes. They change that ! No one does electronics better than the East.

KTM are focused on off road racing and MX they have infiltrated and taken over MXGP that they almost run it. There marketing is excellent which for me is also a bad thing it produces the Napoleonic fan base which is distasteful and probably the main reason to not like KTM. Honda insist on developing everything propriety like there cranks in the Dakar bike but that stops them from selling them to the public as they are after the technology not the glory , so KTM keep winning that Hill which is a marketing Hill of note. In the early days KTM copied Honda directly so much so that Honda parts would fit KTM's perfectly.

Still the bottom line is KTM is making great strides and have done so for a while , they even want to buy Ducati !

KTM are great at employing the right people - Honda suck at that completely (Compare HRC dakar managers resume to KTM's managers resume -the difference is stark) Valentino outlined this problem directly in his book. Honda are all about the technology - KTM have captured the hearts and minds !
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GeorgiePorgie 2/13/2019 11:15pm
2/13/2019 11:15pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2019 9:01am
MotoMan12345 wrote:
I rode a KTM and hated it. Soooo your point?
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
I raced Honda’s and Yamahas my whole life. That’s my point I guess. Since you won’t switch. I Rode a ktm 250sx in 2014 at demo...
I raced Honda’s and Yamahas my whole life. That’s my point I guess. Since you won’t switch.

I Rode a ktm 250sx in 2014 at demo day and hated it. Theyve slowly got nicer and nicer over many year with the Achilles heel being the suspension. Then once the aer48 came out the ktm became the perfect package.
MotoMan12345 wrote:
And that’s fine I just don’t like when the KTM guys sit here and say every bike sucks and KTM is the only good bike. I...
And that’s fine I just don’t like when the KTM guys sit here and say every bike sucks and KTM is the only good bike. I put some time on one and disliked it a lot. But to say KTM is the only good bike out there is nuts.
They’re all nice, just one is nicer. I ride a 06 yz125 (144) and not because Yamahas are junk. I don’t think people are saying other brands suck.
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#434
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#434 2/14/2019 12:09am
2/14/2019 12:09am
WCRider wrote:
Deutsche Qualität
#434 wrote:
Although it's close to the border and a lot of germans work there, it‘s an austrian company.
VRR7 wrote:
No mostly Czechs - Cheap labour . And of course India since baja own half of KTM.
Where would you need cheap labour in a motorcycle factory?? Czech repulic is 2h away and their income isn‘t that much lower. And no, slave labour is not a thing anymore in Europe..
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Francis377
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Francis377 2/14/2019 12:46am
2/14/2019 12:46am
#434 wrote:
Where would you need cheap labour in a motorcycle factory?? Czech repulic is 2h away and their income isn‘t that much lower. And no, slave labour...
Where would you need cheap labour in a motorcycle factory?? Czech repulic is 2h away and their income isn‘t that much lower. And no, slave labour is not a thing anymore in Europe..
Do you know what a production line looks like ? you need cheap labor pretty much everywhere. the guy that bolts on the foot pegs and inserts the filter doesnt need an engineers degree .
Mean Monthly salary check republic is 980euro. Austria 1800euro.
#434
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#434 2/14/2019 5:24am
2/14/2019 5:24am
#434 wrote:
Where would you need cheap labour in a motorcycle factory?? Czech repulic is 2h away and their income isn‘t that much lower. And no, slave labour...
Where would you need cheap labour in a motorcycle factory?? Czech repulic is 2h away and their income isn‘t that much lower. And no, slave labour is not a thing anymore in Europe..
Francis377 wrote:
Do you know what a production line looks like ? you need cheap labor pretty much everywhere. the guy that bolts on the foot pegs and...
Do you know what a production line looks like ? you need cheap labor pretty much everywhere. the guy that bolts on the foot pegs and inserts the filter doesnt need an engineers degree .
Mean Monthly salary check republic is 980euro. Austria 1800euro.
Average is 2850 € and the minimum at above 1300 € for KTM employees at the moment. That’s not huge, but also not cheap labour.
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4csHATER 2/14/2019 11:11am
2/14/2019 11:11am
dcg141 wrote:
You do realize that CP is owned my Pankl Racing Systems...who is owned by KTM. KTM 4 strokes come stock with CP pistons.
Thats what im saying haha these dudes dont know the truth lmao in outdoors everyone uses cp/carillos long rod kit and basically ktm owns it hahaha so in all jap models basically they are using the ktm parts either way. lmao these dude think they know whats up but in reality they dont realize at the end of the day in pro racing ktm gets the money no matter if your riding jap brand or not lmao.
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peelout
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peelout 2/14/2019 12:46pm
2/14/2019 12:46pm
when Japan learns what a wood screw is, then you can come at me bro
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Kid Spam
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Kid Spam 2/14/2019 3:49pm
2/14/2019 3:49pm
Well, damn sure some incredible insight and information from a lot of different folks. Really enjoy the inside baseball stuff, as I am simply a fan.

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TeamFlannel
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TeamFlannel 2/15/2019 4:22pm
2/15/2019 4:22pm
Sure are alot of butthurt Jap/Rice bike riders here on the pumpkin thread...
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250premixer 2/15/2019 4:35pm
2/15/2019 4:35pm
Derek Harris wrote:
KTM essentially ONLY does motorcycles. Motivates you a lot when that's your only thing. The big 4 are so diverse - and very likely breaking EVEN...
KTM essentially ONLY does motorcycles.

Motivates you a lot when that's your only thing.

The big 4 are so diverse - and very likely breaking EVEN on motorcycles - such that bean counters say just maintain. The entire industry is asking HOW do we get back to higher sales. No one knows - because a lot has been tried.
On paper - dirtbikes are same price they have always been to purchase (inflation adjusted) - so that can't be it.



I would also argue that while on paper the ktm is best (it sort have always been) it's arguably NOT the best for most people.


I mean just imagine what california was like - high school teams, race nights every night of the week - large regional series - good paychecks. Large numbers meant great industry around that - parts support - local race support, shop involvement etc.

But without the numbers - none of this can exist. I think KTM has the offroad segment completely dominated which really helps their sales numbers vs the Japanese too. So their involvement in each segment is higher than the others.



RichieW13 wrote:
Motorcycles are more expensive now, adjusted for inflation. (At least compared to 35 years ago.) A 1973 Honda CR250 Elsinore was $1,145. https://motocrossactionmag.com/classic-motocross-iron-1973-honda-cr250m-elsinore/ $1,145 in 1973...
Motorcycles are more expensive now, adjusted for inflation. (At least compared to 35 years ago.)

A 1973 Honda CR250 Elsinore was $1,145. https://motocrossactionmag.com/classic-motocross-iron-1973-honda-cr250m…

$1,145 in 1973 is worth about $6,700 now. https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Cumulative_In…

But, the equivalent Honda CRF450R goes for $9,300, which is about 39% more. https://powersports.honda.com/2019/crf450r.aspx
Derek Harris wrote:
A yz250 retails for 7200 dollars (guessing) - that's a "comparable" bike. Also - in 73 honda was still trying to secure their place in this...
A yz250 retails for 7200 dollars (guessing) - that's a "comparable" bike.

Also - in 73 honda was still trying to secure their place in this market and a production rule didn't exist.
Let's look at the mid 80's when the production rule hit - and we compare more closely - however this is what I came up with on my inflation adjustment.


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2019 are 465.84% higher than prices in 1973. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 3.84% per year during this period.

In other words, $1,750 in 1973 is equivalent in purchasing power to $9,902.20 in 2019, a difference of $8,152.20 over 46 years.


Considering that inflation statistics are hugely supressed by all forms of government - and many analysts in house metrics place the last 10 years more closely to 6-7 real percent inflation rather than the reported 0-2 - I'd say the bike pricing is quite good.



People are currently buying ridiculously priced bicycles in record numbers. The purchase price is NOT our currentl hurdle.


The cycling demographic buying 10k carbon bikes are doctors and lawyers not blue collar guys. The bike price may be comparable to then but today's cost of living is higher as well as wages have been stagnant for sometime now.
Derek Harris 2/15/2019 5:28pm
2/15/2019 5:28pm
250premixer wrote:
The cycling demographic buying 10k carbon bikes are doctors and lawyers not blue collar guys. The bike price may be comparable to then but today's cost...
The cycling demographic buying 10k carbon bikes are doctors and lawyers not blue collar guys. The bike price may be comparable to then but today's cost of living is higher as well as wages have been stagnant for sometime now.
The majority of the current motocross community is very well off especially for their age. And it's wealthy dr's and lawyers and small business owners who are the parents of the kids IN this sport.

Inflation is a reflection of "rising cost of living" - everything gets more expensive. Some wages are stagnant - but the demographics of those who WATCH sx are 25-35 and over 70k a year individual income. That's enough to own a dirtbike in most states and why toyota markets in SX. 25-35 year old males who have the income to by a tundra and want one.

But the fact is out of the 40000 people this weekend in dallas - only around 2500 of them are racers - if that. And the of that 2500 maybe 700-800 of are racing on a monthly basis. Our ENGAGEMENT percentage is really poor.

I know a HOST of NOT so well off people who buy used 10 bicycles for 4-5k. IM one of them.
The same applies to dirtbikes. You can find smoking deals on 1 year old vet ridden low hour bikes. Im one of them.

The COST OF A BIKE is NOT what is holding our sport back. You can go ride and have a blast for very low sum of money on a bike. If you do it right - with say a KTM - resale is quite good right now. 250 bucks a month or so is what it can work out to own a new bike every 12 months. People spend that at Starbucks...

Our "professional" sport of racing isn't even remotely what I would call "professional" by any other sports standard. It's very hard to convince mommy and daddy to push their kid into dirtbikes - when they realize that IF by chance they have a kid that is a national amatuer champion or podium level - AND he is good enough to progress past that to make main events - he will loose money to go racing all summed up to be in the "fast 20". They also realize that the very wealthy familes with fast kids are PAYING for opportunities on rides. That's hard to justify vs going out on the wakeboat all summer and hitting the ski slopes all winter.
Anyways. Maybe it is the cost - and Im an idiot. But I don't personally see the cost holding any of our customers back - from the 70-100k a year income level to the 1 million plus a year income level.

In fact - it's the less wealthy customers of mine who chase this "dream" the most - with the wealthiest ones steering their kids away into other life avenues.

2
ob
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ob 2/16/2019 7:30am
2/16/2019 7:30am
250premixer wrote:
The cycling demographic buying 10k carbon bikes are doctors and lawyers not blue collar guys. The bike price may be comparable to then but today's cost...
The cycling demographic buying 10k carbon bikes are doctors and lawyers not blue collar guys. The bike price may be comparable to then but today's cost of living is higher as well as wages have been stagnant for sometime now.
I don't ride bikes with any doctors or lawyers. And I don't have any moto friends that are blue collar. Cycling is cheap compared to moto that's for sure.
Kid Spam
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Kid Spam 2/16/2019 7:51am
2/16/2019 7:51am
250 premixer pointed out the lack of "professional" in sx/mx regarding income potential.
I agree 1000%, it's at the root of the problem. If the guys making the main can't make a living...embarrassing and on life support.
Purse is top heavy, change that. Waive entry fees, pay out gate fee, etc. etc.
roninho
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roninho 2/16/2019 9:05am
2/16/2019 9:05am
Our "professional" sport of racing isn't even remotely what I would call "professional" by any other sports standard. It's very hard to convince mommy and daddy to push their kid into dirtbikes - when they realize that IF by chance they have a kid that is a national amatuer champion or podium level - AND he is good enough to progress past that to make main events - he will loose money to go racing all summed up to be in the "fast 20". They also realize that the very wealthy familes with fast kids are PAYING for opportunities on rides. That's hard to justify vs going out on the wakeboat all summer and hitting the ski slopes all winter.

I would be very surprised if the majority of parents are "not pushing kids on mx bikes" because if he might turn up to be very good he wont make money on it. Seems like the last thing to think about when your kid is picking up a sport. I can see a lot of things having an impact on parents (safety, cost, time, etc) but that one not so much.

Kid Spam
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Kid Spam 2/16/2019 9:36am
2/16/2019 9:36am Edited Date/Time 2/16/2019 9:37am
roninho wrote:
[Quote]Our "professional" sport of racing isn't even remotely what I would call "professional" by any other sports standard. It's very hard to convince mommy and daddy...
Our "professional" sport of racing isn't even remotely what I would call "professional" by any other sports standard. It's very hard to convince mommy and daddy to push their kid into dirtbikes - when they realize that IF by chance they have a kid that is a national amatuer champion or podium level - AND he is good enough to progress past that to make main events - he will loose money to go racing all summed up to be in the "fast 20". They also realize that the very wealthy familes with fast kids are PAYING for opportunities on rides. That's hard to justify vs going out on the wakeboat all summer and hitting the ski slopes all winter.

I would be very surprised if the majority of parents are "not pushing kids on mx bikes" because if he might turn up to be very good he wont make money on it. Seems like the last thing to think about when your kid is picking up a sport. I can see a lot of things having an impact on parents (safety, cost, time, etc) but that one not so much.

Here in the Triangle Area, parents that are able, spend big money in an effort to give their kid an edge. Soccer, baseball, golf, name it. Personal training facilities for example. That said, I agree with you.
mxracerjohn250 2/16/2019 9:47am
2/16/2019 9:47am
Know how to make a $1 million dollars racing? Start with $2 million.
2
mxracerjohn250 2/16/2019 9:48am
2/16/2019 9:48am
Know how to make $1 million dollars racing? Start with $2 million.
1
mxracerjohn250 2/16/2019 9:49am
2/16/2019 9:49am
Know how to make $1 million dollars racing? Start with $2 million.
1
motoman0 2/16/2019 2:50pm
2/16/2019 2:50pm Edited Date/Time 2/16/2019 2:52pm
Honda still sells more CRF50 than KTM sells in all. It’s all about the pencil pushers in Japan.
BikeGuy321
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BikeGuy321 2/16/2019 4:53pm
2/16/2019 4:53pm
motoman0 wrote:
Honda still sells more CRF50 than KTM sells in all. It’s all about the pencil pushers in Japan.
They sell over a million bikes in Thailand alone, every year. They would cry crocodile tears if the US market wenr away. Suzuki sells boatloads of bikes and little cars in the third world every year too. AFAIK, Kawasaki and KTM rely on vehicle sales in developed countries more than the other top brands.

Post a reply to: Japan defeats the world...until now? I don't understand