How do we keep amateur racing amateur?

peltier626 1/31/2019 1:12pm
1/31/2019 1:12pm
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
An amateur racer is mom and dad sacrificing at the track. No fancy collared shirts with logos. Just a dirty ass ripped up hoody and jeans...
An amateur racer is mom and dad sacrificing at the track. No fancy collared shirts with logos. Just a dirty ass ripped up hoody and jeans. No pit boards. Packing your gate for you. yellin have fun in your ear when the 2 card comes up and no matter where ya finished mom and dad are happy to see you back at the truck and happy discuss the Moto with you.

That’s an amatuer.
This.
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FWYT
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FWYT 1/31/2019 3:38pm
1/31/2019 3:38pm Edited Date/Time 1/31/2019 7:22pm
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
An amateur racer is mom and dad sacrificing at the track. No fancy collared shirts with logos. Just a dirty ass ripped up hoody and jeans...
An amateur racer is mom and dad sacrificing at the track. No fancy collared shirts with logos. Just a dirty ass ripped up hoody and jeans. No pit boards. Packing your gate for you. yellin have fun in your ear when the 2 card comes up and no matter where ya finished mom and dad are happy to see you back at the truck and happy discuss the Moto with you.

That’s an amatuer.
Hell, yeah, Georgie. Hell fugging yeah!
1
White_Trash 1/31/2019 6:21pm
1/31/2019 6:21pm
Keep the engines stock, allow for suspension set up. After having suspension sprung and valved for me, I would hate to go back to something that simply isn't as safe.

The fast kids will still be the fast kids.
Increase the length of amateur motos, fewer classes. It will prove the physical ability and natural stamina that is more important than just the 5 lap sprinters that shine in amateurs. But, fewer classes means the promoters make less money. So that won't happen.

My initial thoughts on a claim rule would be no way am I going racing to not come home with my bike and have to start over... But if all you have is a stock bike with some decent suspension and someone hands you enough cash to go buy a new bike and suspension again, I'm all for it... Racing in vet class on a 250f, being a 200lb guy, I've learned it's not always about the power to weight ratio.
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brettmx 1/31/2019 7:24pm
1/31/2019 7:24pm
Derek Harris wrote:
For a long while - most OEMs dont sell a supermini So you DO need wheels - to make it a big wheel. That's my whole...
For a long while - most OEMs dont sell a supermini

So you DO need wheels - to make it a big wheel. That's my whole point.
And in order to regulate - the claim rule does that. If you spend too much on your bike - and it gets taken from you - shame on you.
Claim rules are common in budget classes for car racing.

Match MSRP?!????
You couldn't even race supermini on that rule. HARDLY ANYONE SELLS A STOCK SUPERMINI - it must be built.
So a guy could claim any bike on the track for 6300??? that isn't in the spirit of the rule or life. We don't want shit TAKEN from people - we want a LIMIT on what they do.

you can claim the ENTIRE bike for 2 times msrp - or some arbitrary number we make up. AKA on a supermini - you can claim any bike on the track for 13000 and take it home that day. It's yours.

In the A/pro class 22-25 k and BOOM, its your bike. That means you buy a stock ktm - 9k OTD and put kit suspension. 7500 from WP
And I hear this - and agree - parents who DO have this money believe putting their kid on the best suspension they can get is a SAFETY issue. Hard to argue against that.
Then a good motor, 3500 (good motor at 3500 is practically nothing - ECU, exhaust, and head work) and all of a sudden your at the claim limit.

People - and a LOT of people - are spending more than that right now year in and year out.


The rule ALREADY EXISTS. As I stated and it's far LOWER than I outlined at most AMA races
J. Claiming
1. All sanctioned motocross and youth meets are claiming
meets. The claiming price shall be 30 percent over (50
percent over for Supermini) manufacturer’s suggested
retail price using the Black Book AMA Official Motorcycle
Value Guide, Kelly Blue Book or NADA appraisal guide
and include the complete motorcycle, supermini or
minicycle. Vintage- and ATV-class equipment shall be
excluded from the claiming rule.
2. Any rider (claimant) may enter a claim for a motorcycle,
supermini or minicycle ridden in an event in which the
claimant has competed. A claimant may enter a claim
with the referee any time during the meet but no later
than 30 minutes after the race results of the event in
which the claimant has competed are posted. There will
be no additional time added to this process in the event of
a claim.
3. Cash, certified check or bank draft must accompany a
claim. The owner of the claimed motorcycle must
immediately deliver it intact, along with a clear title or bill
of sale.
4. If more than one claim is received for the same
motorcycle, the meet referee will hold a drawing to
determine the successful claimant.
5. If a rider whose motorcycle is claimed refuses to comply,
he must forfeit his trophy, is disqualified from the meet
and will be suspended for one year.
MOTOCROSS 1.3
34
6. A rider may not enter a claim on his own equipment.
7. Any rider deemed by the AMA to be complicit in
circumventing the claiming rule (i.e. placing a claim with
the intent of returning the motorcycle to the original
owner), will be subject to a 1 year suspension

The supplamental rules of loretta's are 2 times msrp

The claiming rule value is two times the Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) at the National event.


The PROBLEM is the TABOO behind it - not the rule.




So if I had a child and they were into racing I teach them how to make money by buying an asset at less than it's fair market value and then reselling immediately at a profit. You could make a lot of money at Loretta Lynn's by buying bikes and selling them back to their owners at a nice profit.
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Premix 1/31/2019 8:01pm
1/31/2019 8:01pm
Derek Harris wrote:
I like your thought process. I do not think that rule in that manner would help - any time you place limitations IMHO it increases the...
I like your thought process.
I do not think that rule in that manner would help - any time you place limitations IMHO it increases the cost to go racing, and fuel right now isn't what makes the power per say. I like having fuel companies involved - it's good for the racing economy.

Nascar spends millions to chase 1-5 hp and they are highly regulated!


I think a restrictor plate type rule would work. Say a spec size carb/throttle body. But it's tough. The more you spend the better you can still make that engine...even with a restrictor.


So it's tough. I really think the claim rule is the best solution - as long as its embraced and respected. Build anything you wish - and chase all you want. But if it becomes obvious the bike is the advantage - expect to loose it.

It also eliminates any excuse and argument that parents like to make. As a builder I hear it every day. Our kid needs more power - that's why he is loosing. Work harder HP, my kid is loosing cause that kid has a lynks motor and we dont...or PC...or twisted...whatever - find more.
Then you go do laptimes on a stock 85 vs a supermini that's 10 hp up for the kid and he turns the same lap times...

Or your customer buys the package they think was the answer - only to have the kid then the dyno confirm that it's slower...which happens a lot industry wide for any company. Grass is always greener...

Our sport is so goofy - humans are so dishonest with themselves - and I truly don't have a clue how we get out of this really weird spot the sport is in. I think until pro racing is more transparent in salaries, contracts, purses, etc...
People will continue to chase the "dream" that isn't a reality.

I'd bet most families who are spending the big bucks at this - say 100+k a year - which is a drop in the bucket for many people in this sport - if they knew truly what the career earnings were for all the pros - would quit chasing it.
If you earn 250k-300k a year for extended periods, and see a damn good pro like a mcelrath or someone - who earns say less than 1 million a year, with large expenditures - california housing costs, etc...
You may say son - join the family business and over 20 years your way better off with far less risk.

I think if jesse nelson ever fully opened up it would deter a lot of people...



Clapping loud enough to set off my neighbors car alarm.


mxracerjohn250 1/31/2019 9:17pm
1/31/2019 9:17pm
This is an interesting topic. I am 49 and have seen the sport really change over my entire life for sure. From 3 rail trailers, to a nice box van, to enclosed trailers, to full blown motor toters and double stacks for a few 50cc motorcycles. The amount of money that parents will shell out today to go racing is ridiculous.

My wife and I would probably be considered upper income by the government, but with 3 kids, just another working family. I was racing way before her, and still do, and my 15 year old son has a 12 on his new AMA card. We never pushed, and I never wanted to see my son get burnt out. Keep it in prospective.

Training facilities are the new must if your going to make it in the sport. I have seen C riders and families with good B riders send their kids to training facilities and home school, and you know, at best they will probably become a good local pro if they are lucky.

I've always kept my son on new bikes, that are competitive and he has done well locally. But you have to keep things in reality. If my son keeps on the pace he is, no doubt, he will accomplish his goal of being an A rider. In fact, I tell him all the time, unless your getting that factory support, you can probably race big money regional races, and make more money as a good local A rider.

Over the years, I've seen people lose their homes, take 2nd mortgages, dip into their 401ks all to go racing. Seen people file bankruptcy, get divorced, and for what? The hope of their kid going pro, only to have him burnt out by the time he is 16. My wife and I have always lived by a important rule. I will not finance motocross. Period. If I don't have money for bikes, gear, racing, etc. we don't do it. I suggest all the mini parents out there to read that sentence a few times.

Last year we were pitted next to Jett Reynolds and Ryder DiFrancesco. Both seemed like good kids, and good parents there with them. But they also had team green mechanics handling things, gear sponsors in and out, etc etc. The support was phenomenal. Tough to compete with that. I even wondered how in the world his parents could manage to go from Florida to Texas etc. Someone mentioned to me that his dad was on the Kawasaki payroll. So that would make sense. No matter how much money you spend, it is tough to compete with that package and factory support at all levels.

Keep it real and keep your expectations real for your kid. Because for 99% of us, we are going to spend more money than we want to keep track of, but hopefully we are making memories for a lifetime, and when you have those successes, and wins together, we all celebrate together. And in the case of my son, his grand parents are enjoying those same memories with their grandson that they did with me at his age.
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cody41 2/1/2019 5:02am
2/1/2019 5:02am
mxracerjohn250 wrote:
This is an interesting topic. I am 49 and have seen the sport really change over my entire life for sure. From 3 rail trailers, to...
This is an interesting topic. I am 49 and have seen the sport really change over my entire life for sure. From 3 rail trailers, to a nice box van, to enclosed trailers, to full blown motor toters and double stacks for a few 50cc motorcycles. The amount of money that parents will shell out today to go racing is ridiculous.

My wife and I would probably be considered upper income by the government, but with 3 kids, just another working family. I was racing way before her, and still do, and my 15 year old son has a 12 on his new AMA card. We never pushed, and I never wanted to see my son get burnt out. Keep it in prospective.

Training facilities are the new must if your going to make it in the sport. I have seen C riders and families with good B riders send their kids to training facilities and home school, and you know, at best they will probably become a good local pro if they are lucky.

I've always kept my son on new bikes, that are competitive and he has done well locally. But you have to keep things in reality. If my son keeps on the pace he is, no doubt, he will accomplish his goal of being an A rider. In fact, I tell him all the time, unless your getting that factory support, you can probably race big money regional races, and make more money as a good local A rider.

Over the years, I've seen people lose their homes, take 2nd mortgages, dip into their 401ks all to go racing. Seen people file bankruptcy, get divorced, and for what? The hope of their kid going pro, only to have him burnt out by the time he is 16. My wife and I have always lived by a important rule. I will not finance motocross. Period. If I don't have money for bikes, gear, racing, etc. we don't do it. I suggest all the mini parents out there to read that sentence a few times.

Last year we were pitted next to Jett Reynolds and Ryder DiFrancesco. Both seemed like good kids, and good parents there with them. But they also had team green mechanics handling things, gear sponsors in and out, etc etc. The support was phenomenal. Tough to compete with that. I even wondered how in the world his parents could manage to go from Florida to Texas etc. Someone mentioned to me that his dad was on the Kawasaki payroll. So that would make sense. No matter how much money you spend, it is tough to compete with that package and factory support at all levels.

Keep it real and keep your expectations real for your kid. Because for 99% of us, we are going to spend more money than we want to keep track of, but hopefully we are making memories for a lifetime, and when you have those successes, and wins together, we all celebrate together. And in the case of my son, his grand parents are enjoying those same memories with their grandson that they did with me at his age.
This is very true. I think people who finance racing get what they deserve, that is just plain stupid. This sport really comes down to how much money you have and even then that’s not enough. Grooming your kid to become a pro motocross racer and not getting a good education is just foolish. Once the family realizes little Jimmy does not have it, it’s too late. The parents are underwater and little Jimmy will probably turn to drugs because his “life” is now over, and he doesn’t have any skills besides twisting it. The kid has a better chance being struck by lighting than making it to the top. My dad always kept it fun for me and the sport is a lot more enjoyable that way. Having real expectations and keeping things in perspective in unheard of for the majority of racers today.
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steveada 2/1/2019 6:21am
2/1/2019 6:21am Edited Date/Time 2/1/2019 6:47am
Our sport is so small that we don't really have the numbers to fully separate out the upcoming superstars from the weekend warrior. Personally I think that is OK, and kind of cool when you think about it. If some family wants to go all in with fully built bikes, full time training etc then they are going to do it whether their kid has any real talent or not. People with a lot of talent and the desire to go all in will get support. If you limit what can be done to the bikes, they are still going to have a huge advantage due to the training and seat time. To me a true amateur is someone who realizes they are not on the pro advancement track, and goes out to the races to compete and have fun, but knowing full well that there are going to be a few riders that have a clear advantage. My kids loved it on 85's and superminis when AC or Webb was on the line with them, even though they knew they weren't going to beat them. They also loved competing with or beating the riders with marginal talent that showed up in a .5 million dollar RV with 5 perfect bikes, a personal mechanic and a personal trainer. Also, almost everybody who rides likes to mod their bike a bit no matter what their level of talent. Making everyone who races race a stock bike would kind of suck for everyone.
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Rhody 2/1/2019 7:13am
2/1/2019 7:13am
I think one problem is parents have no idea what kind of innate speed the elite riders have. If the kid has been riding and lines up to race with other new kids with the same amount of experience, you don't have to encourage them to go faster. The ones with elite speed have to be told to slow down so that they survive.
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GeorgiePorgie 2/1/2019 7:20am
2/1/2019 7:20am Edited Date/Time 2/1/2019 7:36am
Hell...you can’t hate on the factory riders either. They are still putting the work in and they’re giving up a lot. Parents are giving up a lot as well it’s just not a gravy boat once you get a factory supported ride. it won’t be regulated, how can you ! ? Just gotta do your best and if you’re lighting the world on fire hopefully you’ll get picked up. But ya cant go bankrupt and flake out on your education to get there.
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Tarz483 2/1/2019 8:01am
2/1/2019 8:01am
steveada wrote:
Our sport is so small that we don't really have the numbers to fully separate out the upcoming superstars from the weekend warrior. Personally I think...
Our sport is so small that we don't really have the numbers to fully separate out the upcoming superstars from the weekend warrior. Personally I think that is OK, and kind of cool when you think about it. If some family wants to go all in with fully built bikes, full time training etc then they are going to do it whether their kid has any real talent or not. People with a lot of talent and the desire to go all in will get support. If you limit what can be done to the bikes, they are still going to have a huge advantage due to the training and seat time. To me a true amateur is someone who realizes they are not on the pro advancement track, and goes out to the races to compete and have fun, but knowing full well that there are going to be a few riders that have a clear advantage. My kids loved it on 85's and superminis when AC or Webb was on the line with them, even though they knew they weren't going to beat them. They also loved competing with or beating the riders with marginal talent that showed up in a .5 million dollar RV with 5 perfect bikes, a personal mechanic and a personal trainer. Also, almost everybody who rides likes to mod their bike a bit no matter what their level of talent. Making everyone who races race a stock bike would kind of suck for everyone.
Imo there should at least be some stock classes
That are optional.
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steveada 2/1/2019 8:05am
2/1/2019 8:05am
Tarz483 wrote:
Imo there should at least be some stock classes
That are optional.
I agree. Some people had mentioned previously they should just run stock bikes only as a way of decreasing costs and leveling the playing field.
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SlowOldGuy 2/1/2019 8:42am
2/1/2019 8:42am
Tarz483 wrote:
Imo there should at least be some stock classes
That are optional.
steveada wrote:
I agree. Some people had mentioned previously they should just run stock bikes only as a way of decreasing costs and leveling the playing field.
Nearly every national level race has stock (limited) classes for all age groups.
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rileymx 2/1/2019 9:08am
2/1/2019 9:08am
i think most of the people who posted here missed the point, there will always be rich kids with better conditions, better bikes, fitter and more skilled riders, even in amateur mx. Its the progression of the sport, it cant be stopped !!!!
the problem addresed here is the lack of results in the pro ranks by the best, most helped and developped kids of the amateurs who turn pro.
even being world known mini-stars, having all the good stuff and being "professional" since very young, still most of them crack up when they get to ama mx or ama sx. they cant handle the pressure of racing midpack and fighting against more experienced racers. the list of young american superstars that couldnt hold the carrear that was expected for them is huge...
putting in more rules, more classes, etc., will not change that, americans already have the most classes, the most rules and its not working now...
in europe, when a fast kid jumps up from the 85, he starts racing against all the best riders from their country, most of them even against factory 450 races from mxgp because most of the pros also race their national championship.
A young kid just out of australia (mitch evans) made it to 7º in the superfinal (best 250 and best 450) of the 1º round of the italian national against a lot of the top pros....
here in usa, they race only kids of their own age or older riders that never made it big, in only 2 or 3 important races each year where they have to races lots of small heats in diferent bikes. and when they are 16/17 they get to the pros and only then they race the best in long motos......
these diferences in format of the youth racing is in my opinion the reason, american kids spent to much time being young marketing stars always on the spotlight, and when it comes time to be a motocross racer they are not prepared, not fisicaly, but specially not mentaly....
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rileymx 2/1/2019 9:33am
2/1/2019 9:33am
Chris_Cooksey wrote:
I do love that the Supercross Futures gives us a bigger sample size than the one race at Lorettas to evaluate these kids skills.
i can understand your thinking, but i think it is not quite a series, its qualifying for something like for lorettas.....kids still dont have a multi race series to manage instead of "do or die" races. also i think it will increase the diferences between the kids who have the top bikes from the others beceuse sx is that much demanding.
another thing is the diferent skill level on track, i read an interview with Jo Shimoda where he was talking about that, he said he was kind of affraid of the others because he didnt trust them not to crash in front of him,

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