A couple simple questions on drug testing...

Asimo
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Asimo 4/14/2018 8:48am
4/14/2018 8:48am
level wrote:
I think it depends on the drug. The stuff tickle took of over the counter should be legal. If the substance is legal then riders should...
I think it depends on the drug. The stuff tickle took of over the counter should be legal. If the substance is legal then riders should be allowed. If illegal then a penalty
High levels of caffeine are banned in the NCAA.

Because of that, roll the dice with your morning triple shot espresso. Or dont. Its really quite simple..

Caffeine used to be on Wadas list. It may be going back on. Again, roll the dice. Or don't.
EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 4/14/2018 8:51am
4/14/2018 8:51am
Riders union.....

Just curious, and do what? Not race?

No race, no pay.
Derek Harris 4/14/2018 8:55am
4/14/2018 8:55am
fullysicmate wrote:
To answer your question. Based off what?....do a 5 minutes of research and you will find countless pages of evidence, that's why wada exists. Start with...
To answer your question. Based off what?....do a 5 minutes of research and you will find countless pages of evidence, that's why wada exists. Start with Lance Armstrong if you like.... You are right it wont give you speed if you are slow, it wont make you run the 100m in 9.7sec if you run it in 18sec either. But if you run the 100m in 10.3sec doping might get you the world record. Doping didn't make Lance Armstrong world class either, but do you think without the doping he would have set the records he has?

You did mention you can think of 1 rider that fades early, there are heaps, some of them you will never hear of. The stimulant that Brock has failed for is nothing, I think he should get a fine or a few week suspension but he will probably get more. Like I said doping wont give you speed but it will let you keep your max speed for far longer than any moto or main event. And if 1 takes it he has a massive advantage over those that dont....A far greater advantage than racing a 450 in the 250 class in my opinion.
Lance would have still won if all his competition were clean if he were clean. The sad fact is he just did everything better. From the legal side to the illegal side...he did it best.

Find me the DATA that shows riders who put up the big parachute who have the speed.
Post up a rider that can even come CLOSE to running the pace of the top 3 - who shows massive fading issues.


It doesn't exist minus my example (CC32)

Jason Lawrence in daytona is an example if what I mean. Had the speed - couldn't quite will power it over the finish to win. The proper doping/cheating - he probably could have won.
But then again - the "proper" program all clean over the course of a couple seasons in a row - he probably would have won. Likely was hung over and high during that race too boot.

Do you think doping in any form would help bull riders? Honest question.


As you said - it wont help speed. These guys are amazing athletes - but it's 16 minutes for a lites guy and 21 for a premier guy. The mind can force the body past that hurdle - rookies prove that with half the fitness of veterans.
In outdoors I agree fitness is a massive role.


But so is skill. When Stew came off the sidelines from JGR to yoshi suzuki and immediately was winning over dungey - he didn't look in top stew physical form. He still won a few 35 min motos - he rides faster with less effort than most people. He is special..or was.
That's why our sport is special. The talent effects every aspect of riding - all the way down to how hard you have to try to go fast.

We just disagree - is what it is.

4 years is bullshit.
1 year is bullshit.

Enact a points penalty that is strict enough to make cheating ruin title and podium hopes for bonus money.
Teams could write in a clause that states if caught cheating - race bonus money is not paid out for that season.

incentive these guys where it matters - the pocket book. If they get caught cheating - and still arent winning - what team hires them next?



Asimo
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Asimo 4/14/2018 9:01am
4/14/2018 9:01am
craigathan404 wrote:
Idk this topic really is just mind blowing to me. Ever since WADA was brought into the sport it’s done nothing but cause issues. Js7 and...
Idk this topic really is just mind blowing to me. Ever since WADA was brought into the sport it’s done nothing but cause issues. Js7 and the adderrall thing was kinda on stew but Clason and Tickle? I mean Clason said it was some sort of paperwork issue, and it seems Tickle may have just eaten a low quality protein bar at an airport or some protein powder or something and he pissed dirty.

Besides that, the penalties ARE UN FUCKING REAL. Good god I mean this isn’t the olympics why give out the same penalties! It’s really quite puzzling to me.

Not a fan of tickle at all, but man what a blow to his camp. Really a sad story and it’s obvious the FIM, AMA, and WADA have some serious issues to iron out. Just my .2
Bullshit. Clason never got a TUE. They never approved it. He rolled the dice and got popped

You dont get DMAA from some low quality bar. And if you did, read the label!

The whole marketing behind DMAA is to be high as a kite Not an airport snack. Good grief.

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TbonesPop 4/14/2018 9:02am
4/14/2018 9:02am
Asimo wrote:
High levels of caffeine are banned in the NCAA. Because of that, roll the dice with your morning triple shot espresso. Or dont. Its really quite...
High levels of caffeine are banned in the NCAA.

Because of that, roll the dice with your morning triple shot espresso. Or dont. Its really quite simple..

Caffeine used to be on Wadas list. It may be going back on. Again, roll the dice. Or don't.
The LD50 ("lethal dose" i.e. toxicity), of caffeine is ~200 mg/kg. To put that in perspective, LD50 of arsenic - 15 mg/kg. LD50 of aspirin - 1500 mg/kg. LD50 of Tylenol - 800 mg/kg. Lower LD50 number, the more toxic.

Should put things into perspective, especially energy drinks. There is a legitimate reason the NCAA banned high levels of caffeine.
Asimo
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Asimo 4/14/2018 9:24am
4/14/2018 9:24am
Derek Harris wrote:
Lance would have still won if all his competition were clean if he were clean. The sad fact is he just did everything better. From the...
Lance would have still won if all his competition were clean if he were clean. The sad fact is he just did everything better. From the legal side to the illegal side...he did it best.

Find me the DATA that shows riders who put up the big parachute who have the speed.
Post up a rider that can even come CLOSE to running the pace of the top 3 - who shows massive fading issues.


It doesn't exist minus my example (CC32)

Jason Lawrence in daytona is an example if what I mean. Had the speed - couldn't quite will power it over the finish to win. The proper doping/cheating - he probably could have won.
But then again - the "proper" program all clean over the course of a couple seasons in a row - he probably would have won. Likely was hung over and high during that race too boot.

Do you think doping in any form would help bull riders? Honest question.


As you said - it wont help speed. These guys are amazing athletes - but it's 16 minutes for a lites guy and 21 for a premier guy. The mind can force the body past that hurdle - rookies prove that with half the fitness of veterans.
In outdoors I agree fitness is a massive role.


But so is skill. When Stew came off the sidelines from JGR to yoshi suzuki and immediately was winning over dungey - he didn't look in top stew physical form. He still won a few 35 min motos - he rides faster with less effort than most people. He is special..or was.
That's why our sport is special. The talent effects every aspect of riding - all the way down to how hard you have to try to go fast.

We just disagree - is what it is.

4 years is bullshit.
1 year is bullshit.

Enact a points penalty that is strict enough to make cheating ruin title and podium hopes for bonus money.
Teams could write in a clause that states if caught cheating - race bonus money is not paid out for that season.

incentive these guys where it matters - the pocket book. If they get caught cheating - and still arent winning - what team hires them next?



False.

Not all people natural are as physcally or genetically gifted as others. So you could never say the dude still would have won.


Asimo
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Asimo 4/14/2018 9:35am
4/14/2018 9:35am
TbonesPop wrote:
2 Points - 1) The quality control and labeling requirements in the supplement industry is crap, total crap. Meaning that what is shown on the label...
2 Points -

1) The quality control and labeling requirements in the supplement industry is crap, total crap. Meaning that what is shown on the label of a product and what is actually in the product is most likely incorrect. I've been told by multiple fitness trainers who do what they do for a living, that there is no governing body that regulates the supplement industry. I'm going to assume that is true as I believe them. Maybe someone else can confirm this - or discredit it. Why in the world would an elite athlete who makes a living use supplements that run that risk? Just eat REAL food.

2) I work in the industrial chemical industry and have for +20 years. Certified testing labs make mistakes all the time - or in some cases there are testing interferences that throw test results off. I see this all the time and this is coming from multiple labs all of which have multiple certifications. Having a lab mistake is certainly not out of the question. Was Broc tested more than once before he received the suspension?

I support drug testing, but a 4 year suspension on a first offense is like giving death penalty for going 95 mph in a 65 mph zone. A 1 year suspension? Ok, fine. That would be a strong deterrent. 4 Years? Completely asinine.
You dont pop for DMAA that isnt there. Should I be worried about my Cocoa Pebbles?
KMC440
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KMC440 4/14/2018 9:36am
4/14/2018 9:36am
jeffro503 wrote:
I voted yes on both actually. I think drug testing should be allowed , but the penalties are just insane in my eyes. It's not just...
I voted yes on both actually. I think drug testing should be allowed , but the penalties are just insane in my eyes. It's not just a penalty.....it's a career ender.
lostboy819 wrote:
X2
X this is ridiculous
mxjon454
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mxjon454 4/14/2018 10:46am
4/14/2018 10:46am
Testing should definitely be done, but the penalties are way to severe, especially for someone that isnt on HGH or blood doping and stuff like that. The AMA has no control over any of that? Then they should do the testing themselves.
pbody
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pbody 4/14/2018 11:40am
4/14/2018 11:40am
I have not read through all the posts, but been around this for a while and every sport/organization needs to regulate their own policies and processes. WADA does not fit for all sports/organizations. There is a reason why NFL, MLB, NBA, etc. are not signatories under WADA.
ando
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ando 4/14/2018 11:42am
4/14/2018 11:42am
tp4 wrote:
good post Guy B..yes on both..the sport should be legit..but not what they did to JS...also tell the f FIM to get the hell out of...

good post Guy B..yes on both..the sport should be legit..but not what they did to JS...also tell the f
FIM to get the hell out of here this is an american sport started here..they can't even pay their own riders!
ML512 wrote:
Read my last response to understand who's doing what here, it's not the FIM's fault...
tp4 wrote:
come on ml 512..regardless of this ...the FIM is a european based sanctioning body..why are they running our series..its wrong period
The US Nationals are not run by the FIM. They use USADA as their testing agency. Same outcome.
ando
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ando 4/14/2018 11:46am
4/14/2018 11:46am
Derek Harris wrote:
Lance would have still won if all his competition were clean if he were clean. The sad fact is he just did everything better. From the...
Lance would have still won if all his competition were clean if he were clean. The sad fact is he just did everything better. From the legal side to the illegal side...he did it best.

Find me the DATA that shows riders who put up the big parachute who have the speed.
Post up a rider that can even come CLOSE to running the pace of the top 3 - who shows massive fading issues.


It doesn't exist minus my example (CC32)

Jason Lawrence in daytona is an example if what I mean. Had the speed - couldn't quite will power it over the finish to win. The proper doping/cheating - he probably could have won.
But then again - the "proper" program all clean over the course of a couple seasons in a row - he probably would have won. Likely was hung over and high during that race too boot.

Do you think doping in any form would help bull riders? Honest question.


As you said - it wont help speed. These guys are amazing athletes - but it's 16 minutes for a lites guy and 21 for a premier guy. The mind can force the body past that hurdle - rookies prove that with half the fitness of veterans.
In outdoors I agree fitness is a massive role.


But so is skill. When Stew came off the sidelines from JGR to yoshi suzuki and immediately was winning over dungey - he didn't look in top stew physical form. He still won a few 35 min motos - he rides faster with less effort than most people. He is special..or was.
That's why our sport is special. The talent effects every aspect of riding - all the way down to how hard you have to try to go fast.

We just disagree - is what it is.

4 years is bullshit.
1 year is bullshit.

Enact a points penalty that is strict enough to make cheating ruin title and podium hopes for bonus money.
Teams could write in a clause that states if caught cheating - race bonus money is not paid out for that season.

incentive these guys where it matters - the pocket book. If they get caught cheating - and still arent winning - what team hires them next?



The majority of people don’t share your view.
36Wheeler 4/14/2018 11:49am
4/14/2018 11:49am
tp4 wrote:
come on ml 512..regardless of this ...the FIM is a european based sanctioning body..why are they running our series..its wrong period
First of all its a supercross world championship hence why it is sanctioned by the international motorcycle federation...

A third of the top 10 riders are european and over the next few years there will be more european riders contesting supercross, especially french guys as their set up i france is getting so much better.
Flip109
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Flip109 4/14/2018 11:58am
4/14/2018 11:58am
I have no problem with the way they test. It’s just ridiculous to ban him for 4 years! I’d say 6 months and then if caught again and again double it every time. Not perfect, but damn it’s better idea than this shit.
TbonesPop 4/14/2018 12:38pm
4/14/2018 12:38pm
Asimo wrote:
You dont pop for DMAA that isnt there. Should I be worried about my Cocoa Pebbles?
Certified labs pick up false positive (and negative) tests for various constituents all the time. Lab mistakes happen frequently, I see it personally first hand - and these are quality certified labs. First thing we do is always, re-test. You get 2 positive hits, it's legit. We never take one lab test as gospel. To end a person's career (essentially) over one test result is extreme, in fact in our industry that kind of a reaction could potentially result in millions of dollars in lawsuits. This is speaking first hand (in the process of concluding a lawsuit right now...hopefully).
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 4/14/2018 1:25pm
4/14/2018 1:25pm
Excaliburbmx wrote:
I don’t like the fim being involved why do we need them and wada involved?
500guy wrote:
The Manufactures asked for drug testing, the choice made on who should be doing it in my mind is a mistake.
Excellent point!
Andy_Greenney 4/14/2018 1:26pm
4/14/2018 1:26pm
Is it possible for the sport to follow WADA testing protocols but implement their own punishment schedule? Seems the general opinion is that testing is important but not a career ending punishment for the first strike, or even a more tiered approach for certain substances.
First strike: 1 year ban and a fine of the previous 12 months prize money

Second strike: 4 year ban

There we go, problem solved.
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King KTM 4/14/2018 1:42pm
4/14/2018 1:42pm
Sully wrote:
I voted no on needing it. Frankly, outside of contact/combat sports, I really don’t care if an athlete is juiced. It’s their body, and if they’re...
I voted no on needing it. Frankly, outside of contact/combat sports, I really don’t care if an athlete is juiced. It’s their body, and if they’re cool with acceptng the potential side effects, I’m fine with it, too.
Betuel wrote:
I’m guessing you dont realize that certain PEDs help increase performance thus giving one rider/racer an edge and what may be the edge to win races...
I’m guessing you dont realize that certain PEDs help increase performance thus giving one rider/racer an edge and what may be the edge to win races and/or championship(s) over another. That is cheating. Good thing the majority on here are ethical.
Sully wrote:
When everyone on the line is racing $100,000+ bikes, I’ll listen to your argument about advantages...
I was under the impression it was 90% rider?

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mxb2
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mxb2 4/14/2018 1:58pm
4/14/2018 1:58pm
Sully wrote:
I voted no on needing it. Frankly, outside of contact/combat sports, I really don’t care if an athlete is juiced. It’s their body, and if they’re...
I voted no on needing it. Frankly, outside of contact/combat sports, I really don’t care if an athlete is juiced. It’s their body, and if they’re cool with acceptng the potential side effects, I’m fine with it, too.
Betuel wrote:
I’m guessing you dont realize that certain PEDs help increase performance thus giving one rider/racer an edge and what may be the edge to win races...
I’m guessing you dont realize that certain PEDs help increase performance thus giving one rider/racer an edge and what may be the edge to win races and/or championship(s) over another. That is cheating. Good thing the majority on here are ethical.
Sully wrote:
When everyone on the line is racing $100,000+ bikes, I’ll listen to your argument about advantages...
You think if ronnie stewart was on tomacs bike , he would podium? A built 450 isnt holding a privateer back.
BikerScars
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BikerScars 4/14/2018 3:09pm
4/14/2018 3:09pm
Yes to both, however the constantly expanding list of banned substances is absolutely ridiculous!
Much of the list is available over the counter at any health store. Hell lots of popular cold and sinus OTC meds are on ban list. It's so over the top, it's a joke. It could destroy the sport if 100% of riders were tested 100% of the time, gates would be empty.
fullysicmate
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fullysicmate 4/14/2018 3:32pm
4/14/2018 3:32pm
fullysicmate wrote:
To answer your question. Based off what?....do a 5 minutes of research and you will find countless pages of evidence, that's why wada exists. Start with...
To answer your question. Based off what?....do a 5 minutes of research and you will find countless pages of evidence, that's why wada exists. Start with Lance Armstrong if you like.... You are right it wont give you speed if you are slow, it wont make you run the 100m in 9.7sec if you run it in 18sec either. But if you run the 100m in 10.3sec doping might get you the world record. Doping didn't make Lance Armstrong world class either, but do you think without the doping he would have set the records he has?

You did mention you can think of 1 rider that fades early, there are heaps, some of them you will never hear of. The stimulant that Brock has failed for is nothing, I think he should get a fine or a few week suspension but he will probably get more. Like I said doping wont give you speed but it will let you keep your max speed for far longer than any moto or main event. And if 1 takes it he has a massive advantage over those that dont....A far greater advantage than racing a 450 in the 250 class in my opinion.
Derek Harris wrote:
Lance would have still won if all his competition were clean if he were clean. The sad fact is he just did everything better. From the...
Lance would have still won if all his competition were clean if he were clean. The sad fact is he just did everything better. From the legal side to the illegal side...he did it best.

Find me the DATA that shows riders who put up the big parachute who have the speed.
Post up a rider that can even come CLOSE to running the pace of the top 3 - who shows massive fading issues.


It doesn't exist minus my example (CC32)

Jason Lawrence in daytona is an example if what I mean. Had the speed - couldn't quite will power it over the finish to win. The proper doping/cheating - he probably could have won.
But then again - the "proper" program all clean over the course of a couple seasons in a row - he probably would have won. Likely was hung over and high during that race too boot.

Do you think doping in any form would help bull riders? Honest question.


As you said - it wont help speed. These guys are amazing athletes - but it's 16 minutes for a lites guy and 21 for a premier guy. The mind can force the body past that hurdle - rookies prove that with half the fitness of veterans.
In outdoors I agree fitness is a massive role.


But so is skill. When Stew came off the sidelines from JGR to yoshi suzuki and immediately was winning over dungey - he didn't look in top stew physical form. He still won a few 35 min motos - he rides faster with less effort than most people. He is special..or was.
That's why our sport is special. The talent effects every aspect of riding - all the way down to how hard you have to try to go fast.

We just disagree - is what it is.

4 years is bullshit.
1 year is bullshit.

Enact a points penalty that is strict enough to make cheating ruin title and podium hopes for bonus money.
Teams could write in a clause that states if caught cheating - race bonus money is not paid out for that season.

incentive these guys where it matters - the pocket book. If they get caught cheating - and still arent winning - what team hires them next?



It seems like we do agree that doping will make some difference.
Asimo
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Asimo 4/14/2018 3:37pm
4/14/2018 3:37pm
Asimo wrote:
You dont pop for DMAA that isnt there. Should I be worried about my Cocoa Pebbles?
TbonesPop wrote:
Certified labs pick up false positive (and negative) tests for various constituents all the time. Lab mistakes happen frequently, I see it personally first hand -...
Certified labs pick up false positive (and negative) tests for various constituents all the time. Lab mistakes happen frequently, I see it personally first hand - and these are quality certified labs. First thing we do is always, re-test. You get 2 positive hits, it's legit. We never take one lab test as gospel. To end a person's career (essentially) over one test result is extreme, in fact in our industry that kind of a reaction could potentially result in millions of dollars in lawsuits. This is speaking first hand (in the process of concluding a lawsuit right now...hopefully).
They will test the B Sample.

If his test came back positive for Clorox bleach, I'd buy it's a false reading. Again, are my cocoa pebbles or captain crunch loaded with DMAA?

Should I freak out they might be?

Sully
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Sully 4/14/2018 4:58pm
4/14/2018 4:58pm
Betuel wrote:
I’m guessing you dont realize that certain PEDs help increase performance thus giving one rider/racer an edge and what may be the edge to win races...
I’m guessing you dont realize that certain PEDs help increase performance thus giving one rider/racer an edge and what may be the edge to win races and/or championship(s) over another. That is cheating. Good thing the majority on here are ethical.
Sully wrote:
When everyone on the line is racing $100,000+ bikes, I’ll listen to your argument about advantages...
mxb2 wrote:
You think if ronnie stewart was on tomacs bike , he would podium? A built 450 isnt holding a privateer back.
You think if Ronnie Stewart was on PEDs he’d suddenly podium?
Why is it OK for the bikes to be on steroids, but it’s taboo if a rider does it?
TbonesPop 4/14/2018 4:58pm
4/14/2018 4:58pm
Asimo wrote:
You dont pop for DMAA that isnt there. Should I be worried about my Cocoa Pebbles?
TbonesPop wrote:
Certified labs pick up false positive (and negative) tests for various constituents all the time. Lab mistakes happen frequently, I see it personally first hand -...
Certified labs pick up false positive (and negative) tests for various constituents all the time. Lab mistakes happen frequently, I see it personally first hand - and these are quality certified labs. First thing we do is always, re-test. You get 2 positive hits, it's legit. We never take one lab test as gospel. To end a person's career (essentially) over one test result is extreme, in fact in our industry that kind of a reaction could potentially result in millions of dollars in lawsuits. This is speaking first hand (in the process of concluding a lawsuit right now...hopefully).
Asimo wrote:
They will test the B Sample. If his test came back positive for Clorox bleach, I'd buy it's a false reading. Again, are my cocoa pebbles...
They will test the B Sample.

If his test came back positive for Clorox bleach, I'd buy it's a false reading. Again, are my cocoa pebbles or captain crunch loaded with DMAA?

Should I freak out they might be?

Your Cocoa Pebbles and Captain Crunch are regulated by the Food and Drug administration, so you are safe.

Dietary supplements Per the FDA (governing body for supplements) - "FDA is not authorized to review dietary supplement products for safety and effectiveness before they are marketed."

FDA Info on Dietary supplements
mxb2
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mxb2 4/14/2018 5:05pm
4/14/2018 5:05pm
Sully wrote:
When everyone on the line is racing $100,000+ bikes, I’ll listen to your argument about advantages...
mxb2 wrote:
You think if ronnie stewart was on tomacs bike , he would podium? A built 450 isnt holding a privateer back.
Sully wrote:
You think if Ronnie Stewart was on PEDs he’d suddenly podium? Why is it OK for the bikes to be on steroids, but it’s taboo if...
You think if Ronnie Stewart was on PEDs he’d suddenly podium?
Why is it OK for the bikes to be on steroids, but it’s taboo if a rider does it?
The bikes not holding him back, 50k privateer bike is plenty good to podium with the right rider. Ronnie stewart isnt that guy.
PRM31
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PRM31 4/14/2018 5:28pm
4/14/2018 5:28pm Edited Date/Time 4/14/2018 5:40pm
In my opinion the only drugs we should be worried about are those that provide significant gains, and create a health concern. What I wouldn’t want to see is riders feeling they have to take a particular unhealthy drug in order to be competitive.
I’m just not sure that drugs are necessary to have the endurance and strength for super cross. And I have real reservations about them making a rider significantly faster.
Asimo
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Asimo 4/14/2018 5:33pm
4/14/2018 5:33pm Edited Date/Time 4/14/2018 5:37pm
TbonesPop wrote:
Your Cocoa Pebbles and Captain Crunch are regulated by the Food and Drug administration, so you are safe. Dietary supplements Per the FDA (governing body for...
Your Cocoa Pebbles and Captain Crunch are regulated by the Food and Drug administration, so you are safe.

Dietary supplements Per the FDA (governing body for supplements) - "FDA is not authorized to review dietary supplement products for safety and effectiveness before they are marketed."

FDA Info on Dietary supplements
Then explain to me why all the sellers and distributors of DMAA were all raided and most of their inventories confiscated by the FDA and DEA?

For a guy who works at "Certified Labs", Seems to me that you're pretty well uninformed.



Sonny
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Sonny 4/14/2018 6:54pm
4/14/2018 6:54pm
10 year ban is way too much
ML512
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Posts
17081
Joined
12/28/2008
Location
Wildomar, CA, USA
Fantasy
1328th
ML512 4/14/2018 6:59pm
4/14/2018 6:59pm
Sonny wrote:
10 year ban is way too much
10 year, huh?
bsharkey
Profile picture for user bsharkey
Posts
2162
Joined
6/16/2014
Location
Marysville, WA, USA
bsharkey 4/14/2018 7:02pm
4/14/2018 7:02pm
Our sport is too small I mean think about it I bet outside the top 15 those guys will be lucky to make a hundred grand a year. Outside the top 20 maybe 50k or less. Unless the fim is dumping money into help our sport we need to s*** can them nobody cares about a world title we need no affiliation with them.

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