A couple simple questions on drug testing...

ML512
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4/14/2018 7:17pm
bsharkey wrote:
Our sport is too small I mean think about it I bet outside the top 15 those guys will be lucky to make a hundred grand...
Our sport is too small I mean think about it I bet outside the top 15 those guys will be lucky to make a hundred grand a year. Outside the top 20 maybe 50k or less. Unless the fim is dumping money into help our sport we need to s*** can them nobody cares about a world title we need no affiliation with them.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, for like the tenth time today, it's not the FIM's fault. If we were just running under AMA sanctioning, like outdoors is, then we'd be playing ball with USADA. USADA runs the same list of banned substances, same testing protocols, same penalties. We ran for a bit under FIM without WADA, testing came at the request of promoters and teams...
colintrax
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4/14/2018 7:26pm
ML512 wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, for like the tenth time today, it's not the FIM's fault. If we were just running under...
I've said it before and I'll say it again, for like the tenth time today, it's not the FIM's fault. If we were just running under AMA sanctioning, like outdoors is, then we'd be playing ball with USADA. USADA runs the same list of banned substances, same testing protocols, same penalties. We ran for a bit under FIM without WADA, testing came at the request of promoters and teams...
Why do we have to do testing though? Afaik there's no law that says a sports league must follow usda or WADA testing.
hillbilly
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4/14/2018 7:38pm
I have watched a half dozen documentaries on doping in the last month or so starting with ",icarus" then to a few about Armstrong Landis and Hamilton and one about track and field .

The head guy s at Wada and usada figure they catch about 2 percent. It is just a bunch of bull shit

If I was going to cope I would micro dose epo and testosterone . And get away with it.
TbonesPop
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4/14/2018 7:56pm
Asimo wrote:
Then explain to me why all the sellers and distributors of DMAA were all raided and most of their inventories confiscated by the FDA and DEA...
Then explain to me why all the sellers and distributors of DMAA were all raided and most of their inventories confiscated by the FDA and DEA?

For a guy who works at "Certified Labs", Seems to me that you're pretty well uninformed.



I don't "work" at Certified labs - check your reading and comprehension. Our company USES certified labs to test various industrial chemicals, samples (products, air, water), bacteria, etc. I see mistakes on a fairly routine basis.

With respect to this and the FDA - it's a grey area. FDA wants control (for good reason) but doesn't technically have full authority over it per the previous link provided. You can easily look all this up on the FDA website yourself by the way. If a substance is an illegal drug, the DEA has authority over it (is my understanding). But hey, you were worried about your captain crunch....

"Under its administrative detention authority, FDA can detain a food or dietary supplement product if the agency has reason to believe the product is adulterated or misbranded. The agency can keep detained products out of the marketplace for a maximum of 30 days while it determines whether to take further enforcement action, such as seizure. Under FDA regulations, detained articles can be voluntarily destroyed by their owner.

FDA continues to advise consumers not to buy or use dietary supplement products that contain DMAA due to the health risks they present."

"Dietary supplements containing DMAA are illegal and FDA is doing everything within its authority to remove these products from the market."

The Shop

Asimo
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4/14/2018 9:09pm
TbonesPop wrote:
I don't "work" at Certified labs - check your reading and comprehension. Our company USES certified labs to test various industrial chemicals, samples (products, air, water)...
I don't "work" at Certified labs - check your reading and comprehension. Our company USES certified labs to test various industrial chemicals, samples (products, air, water), bacteria, etc. I see mistakes on a fairly routine basis.

With respect to this and the FDA - it's a grey area. FDA wants control (for good reason) but doesn't technically have full authority over it per the previous link provided. You can easily look all this up on the FDA website yourself by the way. If a substance is an illegal drug, the DEA has authority over it (is my understanding). But hey, you were worried about your captain crunch....

"Under its administrative detention authority, FDA can detain a food or dietary supplement product if the agency has reason to believe the product is adulterated or misbranded. The agency can keep detained products out of the marketplace for a maximum of 30 days while it determines whether to take further enforcement action, such as seizure. Under FDA regulations, detained articles can be voluntarily destroyed by their owner.

FDA continues to advise consumers not to buy or use dietary supplement products that contain DMAA due to the health risks they present."

"Dietary supplements containing DMAA are illegal and FDA is doing everything within its authority to remove these products from the market."
TbonesPop wrote: "Dietary supplements containing DMAA are illegal and FDA is doing everything within its authority to remove these products from the market."

Again you are wrong.

It is still in the court system under appeals and DMAA can be bought right now today. I can also find the 1,5 version and also DMHA . I think Tickle got popped on the 1,5.

Had you read the thread, you would have seen the court appeals I posted many pages ago.
level
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4/14/2018 10:21pm Edited Date/Time 4/14/2018 10:22pm
Another comment made a great point. The stuff that is allowed to sell over the counter with these supplements that are dangerous and unregulated because of legal loopholes is bullshit. You can buy dangerous synthetic marijuana that makes your eyes fucking bleed and it’s perfectly legal. It baffles me the shit people can buy that is allowed to sell because of these legal loopholes for supplements and drugs. It’s very likely Brock didn’t know what he was taking or that is was even in there.
I mean how long is the half life on this drug? What Products are it in?

One thing that bugs me is first offenders should not get a suspension. It should be a penalty and fine and that’s it. Like a warning. Not a career killer. Just ridiculous.
TbonesPop
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4/14/2018 10:46pm
Asimo wrote:
[i] TbonesPop wrote: "Dietary supplements containing DMAA are illegal and FDA is doing everything within its authority to remove these products from the market."[/i] Again you...
TbonesPop wrote: "Dietary supplements containing DMAA are illegal and FDA is doing everything within its authority to remove these products from the market."

Again you are wrong.

It is still in the court system under appeals and DMAA can be bought right now today. I can also find the 1,5 version and also DMHA . I think Tickle got popped on the 1,5.

Had you read the thread, you would have seen the court appeals I posted many pages ago.
You do realize that the quote that I quoted above was a direct quote from the FDA website specific to DMAA - not my personal opinion on the subject?

Look, the main point I was trying to make was to explain the differences in governance (or lack of) over dietary supplements by the FDA and how that differs from Food and/or Drugs - although dietary supplements are covered under the FDA Food umbrella, the specific authority over supplements have nuance differences versus Food or drugs. All 3 are regulated differently. FDA doesn't have full authority over dietary supplements and to get them removed takes significant legal hurdles, which is likely why its still in the court system. I don't take supplements (I just eat real food), so I have no idea if it can be purchased legally or in supplements.

I'm headed to bed and I'm done with this internet sword fight.
ACBraap
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4/15/2018 12:35am
jeffro503 wrote:
I voted yes on both actually. I think drug testing should be allowed , but the penalties are just insane in my eyes. It's not just...
I voted yes on both actually. I think drug testing should be allowed , but the penalties are just insane in my eyes. It's not just a penalty.....it's a career ender.
I hope you mean required vs allowed.

And yeah, the penalties are f’d up. So out of proportion those assessed for equipment, fuel, or on track behavior.
ACBraap
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4/15/2018 12:46am
ML512 wrote:
I said this a ton of times yesterday in topics and I'll say it again, pointing fingers at the FIM is pointless, AMA Pro Motocorss uses...
I said this a ton of times yesterday in topics and I'll say it again, pointing fingers at the FIM is pointless, AMA Pro Motocorss uses USADA, which is WADA's USA branch. Meaning if the Supercross was governed by the AMA solely and we had drug testing like outdoors, USADA would be in charge of it. They're just a serious if not more serious, it's the branch that finally took on and down Lance Armstrong. They would be handing out the same penalties that WADA does, so in mythical land if it was the AMA Supercross and Tickle took this same test through USADA, we'd end up with the same outcome.
Sort of. IIRC, USADA is the party that issued the ‘reasoned decision’ (great reading BTW) that banned Armstrong and took his tour wins. It was federal prosecutors and the whistleblower claims by Landis that led to that happening.
worcsracer808
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4/15/2018 2:14am
I feel like they should have different penalties for different offenses. James Stewart prime example, it's medication that he was cleared for a TUE for, very stupid penalty. This stimulant seems like nothing so maybe suspend him for the season? There's a huge difference between a guy injecting epo and taking tesosterone, vs a guy who had a stimulant mixed in with a supplement or cold meds.
TeamGreen
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4/15/2018 2:49am
I feel like they should have different penalties for different offenses. James Stewart prime example, it's medication that he was cleared for a TUE for, very...
I feel like they should have different penalties for different offenses. James Stewart prime example, it's medication that he was cleared for a TUE for, very stupid penalty. This stimulant seems like nothing so maybe suspend him for the season? There's a huge difference between a guy injecting epo and taking tesosterone, vs a guy who had a stimulant mixed in with a supplement or cold meds.
BOOM!
Crush
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4/15/2018 3:25am Edited Date/Time 4/15/2018 4:11am
Sully wrote:
When everyone on the line is racing $100,000+ bikes, I’ll listen to your argument about advantages...
mxb2 wrote:
You think if ronnie stewart was on tomacs bike , he would podium? A built 450 isnt holding a privateer back.
Sully wrote:
You think if Ronnie Stewart was on PEDs he’d suddenly podium? Why is it OK for the bikes to be on steroids, but it’s taboo if...
You think if Ronnie Stewart was on PEDs he’d suddenly podium?
Why is it OK for the bikes to be on steroids, but it’s taboo if a rider does it?
Totally against an environment where there is yet another pressure put on young kids... If you don't have this bike... this suspension... this trainer... these drugs...

That's reason enough for me to have it.

Given the cost of testing (ie it's plug into WADA's system), frankly if it comes down to a few, often million dollar athletes, not being on top of it enough to know what they can or can't take, i'll take that scenario over a bunch of kids potentially being pressured into taking shit that's harming them long term. No question.
Sully
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4/15/2018 3:37am
Crush wrote:
Totally against an environment where there is yet another pressure put on young kids... If you don't have this bike... this suspension... this trainer... these drugs...
Totally against an environment where there is yet another pressure put on young kids... If you don't have this bike... this suspension... this trainer... these drugs...

That's reason enough for me to have it.

Given the cost of testing (ie it's plug into WADA's system), frankly if it comes down to a few, often million dollar athletes, not being on top of it enough to know what they can or can't take, i'll take that scenario over a bunch of kids potentially being pressured into taking shit that's harming them long term. No question.
Pressure on amateur kids is definitely a fair argument, and frankly, one I hadn’t really thought of in my original posts.
MR. X
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4/15/2018 4:51am
They all have resources to determine what is ok and what s not , you can't cherry pick the penalties per the infraction .
FiZ
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4/15/2018 5:00am
MR. X wrote:
They all have resources to determine what is ok and what s not , you can't cherry pick the penalties per the infraction .
Thank you for that comment.
I think so too.
Rules are rules and every professional athlete has to follow that.
They should know the rules and theire consequences.
WADA is following a very strict zero tolerance policy.
deluxeman
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4/15/2018 5:07am
Tickle has a B sample yet to be tested to verify test A. If the B test comes back positive he has an issue to deal with. If his B tests clean he should be fine.
MR. X
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4/15/2018 5:32am
deluxeman wrote:
Tickle has a B sample yet to be tested to verify test A. If the B test comes back positive he has an issue to deal...
Tickle has a B sample yet to be tested to verify test A. If the B test comes back positive he has an issue to deal with. If his B tests clean he should be fine.
I don't think it's that simple . I'm just going by other athletes in different sports that use the same testing .
Fourth_Floor
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4/15/2018 5:44am
The riders know how harsh the penalties are so it's mind blowing to me how someone wouldn't be mindful of every single supplement or medication that they are putting in their bodies to make absolutely sure no banned substances are in there. How could you be in that upper tier position and not be mindful of something that results in a career ending penalty??????????
logan_140
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4/15/2018 6:06am
When an nfl player violates the substance abuse policy they get 4 games first offense... we jump straight to 365 days in sx/Mx..
MR. X
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4/15/2018 6:11am
logan_140 wrote:
When an nfl player violates the substance abuse policy they get 4 games first offense... we jump straight to 365 days in sx/Mx..
Are the players tested by the NFL and not an outside testing company ?
Asimo
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4/15/2018 8:12am
TbonesPop wrote:
You do realize that the quote that I quoted above was a direct quote from the FDA website specific to DMAA -[i] not my personal opinion...
You do realize that the quote that I quoted above was a direct quote from the FDA website specific to DMAA - not my personal opinion on the subject?

Look, the main point I was trying to make was to explain the differences in governance (or lack of) over dietary supplements by the FDA and how that differs from Food and/or Drugs - although dietary supplements are covered under the FDA Food umbrella, the specific authority over supplements have nuance differences versus Food or drugs. All 3 are regulated differently. FDA doesn't have full authority over dietary supplements and to get them removed takes significant legal hurdles, which is likely why its still in the court system. I don't take supplements (I just eat real food), so I have no idea if it can be purchased legally or in supplements.

I'm headed to bed and I'm done with this internet sword fight.
But what you quoted from the FDA site was from years ago. Its been going on since 2012 or 2013 when letters went out to suppliers.

Warning letters dont constitute law, and DMAA was never formally made illegal and wont be until the supreme court rules on it.
Last month, Oral argument dates were set.
Asimo
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4/15/2018 8:20am
deluxeman wrote:
Tickle has a B sample yet to be tested to verify test A. If the B test comes back positive he has an issue to deal...
Tickle has a B sample yet to be tested to verify test A. If the B test comes back positive he has an issue to deal with. If his B tests clean he should be fine.
Pretty much wont. If he tested for bleach in his system maybe.

I dont think a B sample has ever came back negative.

Asimo
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4/15/2018 8:28am
I feel like they should have different penalties for different offenses. James Stewart prime example, it's medication that he was cleared for a TUE for, very...
I feel like they should have different penalties for different offenses. James Stewart prime example, it's medication that he was cleared for a TUE for, very stupid penalty. This stimulant seems like nothing so maybe suspend him for the season? There's a huge difference between a guy injecting epo and taking tesosterone, vs a guy who had a stimulant mixed in with a supplement or cold meds.
TeamGreen wrote:
BOOM!
LOL, both of you have no idea.
Flatliner
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4/15/2018 8:53am
Mit12 wrote:
A 4 year ban is harsh but in the industry I worked in you were banned for life for a failed drug test. I was tested...
A 4 year ban is harsh but in the industry I worked in you were banned for life for a failed drug test. I was tested for over 20 years and never failed a drug test. For me it was easy, take a banned substance vrs loosing my job. The scale always leaned toward my job. This sucks and it is harsh but the only reason you would fail a test is because you took the risk. It is no ones fault but the ride, they all know the rules.
Was pre workout on your banned list?

I bet not.
CG118
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4/15/2018 9:12am
I feel like they should have different penalties for different offenses. James Stewart prime example, it's medication that he was cleared for a TUE for, very...
I feel like they should have different penalties for different offenses. James Stewart prime example, it's medication that he was cleared for a TUE for, very stupid penalty. This stimulant seems like nothing so maybe suspend him for the season? There's a huge difference between a guy injecting epo and taking tesosterone, vs a guy who had a stimulant mixed in with a supplement or cold meds.
TeamGreen wrote:
BOOM!
Asimo wrote:
LOL, both of you have no idea.
What is the idea?
4/15/2018 9:19am
It is great they test for performance enhancing drugs in SX, you moto guys are funny with the whole "get out of here with testing, leave us alone".....why are you so different than any other sport? Play by the rules, its a simple philosophy.
Mit12
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4/15/2018 9:21am
tp4 wrote:
good post Guy B..yes on both..the sport should be legit..but not what they did to JS...also tell the f FIM to get the hell out of...

good post Guy B..yes on both..the sport should be legit..but not what they did to JS...also tell the f
FIM to get the hell out of here this is an american sport started here..they can't even pay their own riders!
ML512 wrote:
Read my last response to understand who's doing what here, it's not the FIM's fault...
tp4 wrote:
come on ml 512..regardless of this ...the FIM is a european based sanctioning body..why are they running our series..its wrong period
Its sad that live in a world that people blame anything but the person commiting the crime. The AMA, FIM or WADA did not hold Tickle down and force him to take a banned substance.

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