No easy ride: Motorcycle industry is in deep trouble and needs help fast, panel agrees

NorCal 50+
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Grass Valley, CA, USA
12/18/2017 11:48am
Society is changing- I believe social media and media immersion has taught young people to be afraid of EVERYTHING. Even my wife, who is 11 years younger than me, is the ultimate helicopter parent. Nobody in her circle would get on a motocross bike in a million years.
I go to the beach with my 30-something nieces and they won't go close to the water without a lifeguard. Many young people I meet are all depressed about climate change and resources...one girl told me "why would I have a kid when there are so many people in the world already." You go out to eat and they drink water and vegetarian Burritos.
Even the "action sports" era of a few years back seems to be fading. To be replaced by endless worry... I guess my point is everybody acts like life is about raw survival these days, not any type of risk-taking for fun.
12/18/2017 11:50am Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 11:51am
Do young automobile drivers typically have coverage exceeding liability?
Acidreamer
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12/18/2017 12:03pm
Do young automobile drivers typically have coverage exceeding liability?
I have full coverage on my truck. Its worth 3x more than a bike. Def want it covered
endurox
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12/18/2017 12:06pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 12:07pm
Fun factor and not HP will drive the market. Will be interesting to see how well Royal Enfield does with their new push into the US. No need for anything bigger than a 400cc IMO. To much emphasis put on 1000,1200cc bikes.Any of course the brain dead hd riders who have to piss off the general population with their 100db pipes does not help. Honda had a cool event back around 1970 at OCIR where they let anyone go round and round on their Trail 50's and 70's. That event got me started.
Introducing motorycles to people in a non threatening way is needed for most younger people today. Going to a supercross for the first time might get a few people interested, but for the industry to grow, you need to look at new avenues such as Alta and their ebikes.

The Shop

gt80rider
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12/18/2017 12:14pm
The entire industry, but especially the road-going portion has geared itself to chasing boomer dollars since 1963. That's all well and good -- it was and...
The entire industry, but especially the road-going portion has geared itself to chasing boomer dollars since 1963. That's all well and good -- it was and is a huge money demographic, and one would be stupid not to participate. But it will (as all things do) dry up.

The last 20 years have produced amazing product for us enthusiasts. We have top-notch performance, style, and reliability in nearly all sectors of our little market.

But for broadening motorcycle culture? For making the cost of entry (the prime motivator for the previous generations) dirt-cheap? For cultivating youth and casual participation? There's a nearly thirty year casual consumer gap that will need to be compensated to really expect long term industry stability. And that time has already gone by.
Top notch bikes? Ya sure, if you are looking at top end race bikes. Have you looked further down the product line? A wholeeee lotta 80's tech STILL exists in lower end models, in fact, a lot more oldddd tech than new. BTW, the "lower end" models are what the masses buy (or don't in this case).

Does anyone not remember 97 to 07? Sure, today there are solid turnouts at the big races, but what about locally? I've seen waayyyyy more tracks close than open, the same can be said about shops. My local racing scene is dismal compared to the glory years, and has been for years.

Ya, basically back in the day the big companies would aggressively market, now days, not so much. Motorcycles are a far superior way to commute, yet few do for fear of their lives. I don't commute, but if I did, it would be on a bike on all days except below 30 degrees or loads of rain (riding on-road in the rain SUCKS).



12/18/2017 12:26pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 12:43pm
Do young automobile drivers typically have coverage exceeding liability?
Acidreamer wrote:
I have full coverage on my truck. Its worth 3x more than a bike. Def want it covered
A ) We're talking about bikes, it ain't all about you. You can already afford a truck policy, so you're good
B ) I posit a reasonable and fun bike should be significantly cheaper both in insurance and purchase price used Corolla, let alone your truck.
C ) You already stated everything is good in your era. So you are ok. I am speaking as a motorcyclist coming up, having ex-racing parents. I was never great, but convincing others, my spouse, my children of the financial resiliency of the sport is difficult. And, don't get me wrong, I'm fine financially. But as fine as it is to look at your truck, to look at mine (which probably isn't quite as cool), it's easy to see that decent trucks does not assess the ground level of our sport.
mndirtrider
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Mesa, AZ, USA
12/18/2017 12:33pm
In America we don't push motorcycles as alternative transportation, they are more "fun" and not functional. Look at the bikes sold in India, Malaysia, China, etc. They sell small, fuel efficient, easily ridden motorcycles and they push them as your main transportation. In America it's cars and trucks so it will always be hard to compete with 2 wheels. Didn't KTM release the new 390 in India first and it "may" make it to America? But KTM sends over the $20,000 1290 Adventure bikes for the older generations and no 390 Adventure bike for newbies....

On road the bottom line is that it's getting really dangerous to ride street bikes anymore with all the distracted driving, texting, phone calls, etc. We planned on being a 1 car family after moving to Arizona and having street bikes. Then we rode the street bike here and realized it just isn't safe. We sold it and bought another car.
12/18/2017 12:37pm
The entire industry, but especially the road-going portion has geared itself to chasing boomer dollars since 1963. That's all well and good -- it was and...
The entire industry, but especially the road-going portion has geared itself to chasing boomer dollars since 1963. That's all well and good -- it was and is a huge money demographic, and one would be stupid not to participate. But it will (as all things do) dry up.

The last 20 years have produced amazing product for us enthusiasts. We have top-notch performance, style, and reliability in nearly all sectors of our little market.

But for broadening motorcycle culture? For making the cost of entry (the prime motivator for the previous generations) dirt-cheap? For cultivating youth and casual participation? There's a nearly thirty year casual consumer gap that will need to be compensated to really expect long term industry stability. And that time has already gone by.
gt80rider wrote:
Top notch bikes? Ya sure, if you are looking at top end race bikes. Have you looked further down the product line? A wholeeee lotta 80's...
Top notch bikes? Ya sure, if you are looking at top end race bikes. Have you looked further down the product line? A wholeeee lotta 80's tech STILL exists in lower end models, in fact, a lot more oldddd tech than new. BTW, the "lower end" models are what the masses buy (or don't in this case).

Does anyone not remember 97 to 07? Sure, today there are solid turnouts at the big races, but what about locally? I've seen waayyyyy more tracks close than open, the same can be said about shops. My local racing scene is dismal compared to the glory years, and has been for years.

Ya, basically back in the day the big companies would aggressively market, now days, not so much. Motorcycles are a far superior way to commute, yet few do for fear of their lives. I don't commute, but if I did, it would be on a bike on all days except below 30 degrees or loads of rain (riding on-road in the rain SUCKS).



Think about the larger motorcycle market than just the mx race market. The prevelance of 1970s off road tech is symptomatic of bigger issues, not a sign of health. As per typical industries, as big money should be dumped into the larger market shares as the leading edge -- that's what I am getting at.
12/18/2017 12:57pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 12:58pm
In America we don't push motorcycles as alternative transportation, they are more "fun" and not functional. Look at the bikes sold in India, Malaysia, China, etc...
In America we don't push motorcycles as alternative transportation, they are more "fun" and not functional. Look at the bikes sold in India, Malaysia, China, etc. They sell small, fuel efficient, easily ridden motorcycles and they push them as your main transportation. In America it's cars and trucks so it will always be hard to compete with 2 wheels. Didn't KTM release the new 390 in India first and it "may" make it to America? But KTM sends over the $20,000 1290 Adventure bikes for the older generations and no 390 Adventure bike for newbies....

On road the bottom line is that it's getting really dangerous to ride street bikes anymore with all the distracted driving, texting, phone calls, etc. We planned on being a 1 car family after moving to Arizona and having street bikes. Then we rode the street bike here and realized it just isn't safe. We sold it and bought another car.
Good points on both topics. In the 70s, there were a lot more enduro (offroad/street combo) bikes. It was so much easier for beginners in all categories. Offroad/trails, you had a mild powerband with decent (for that period) suspension. On the streets, you had a bike that would run 70-80 mph that was decent (and cheap) for local transportation. Not great for either category, but an excellent beginner / intro bike. In almost every case, all of my friends that raced MX or moved on to larger street bikes, started on the enduros. Many are still riding 40 years later.
12/18/2017 1:00pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 1:00pm
gt80rider wrote:
Top notch bikes? Ya sure, if you are looking at top end race bikes. Have you looked further down the product line? A wholeeee lotta 80's...
Top notch bikes? Ya sure, if you are looking at top end race bikes. Have you looked further down the product line? A wholeeee lotta 80's tech STILL exists in lower end models, in fact, a lot more oldddd tech than new. BTW, the "lower end" models are what the masses buy (or don't in this case).

Does anyone not remember 97 to 07? Sure, today there are solid turnouts at the big races, but what about locally? I've seen waayyyyy more tracks close than open, the same can be said about shops. My local racing scene is dismal compared to the glory years, and has been for years.

Ya, basically back in the day the big companies would aggressively market, now days, not so much. Motorcycles are a far superior way to commute, yet few do for fear of their lives. I don't commute, but if I did, it would be on a bike on all days except below 30 degrees or loads of rain (riding on-road in the rain SUCKS).



I said "top notch bikes... for us enthusiasts" The entire post is about how all about "non-enthusiast" segments have been ignored.

Read it again.
Micahdogg
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12/18/2017 1:27pm
"The motorcycle industry doesn't need a better product..." Yeah ok.

Just imagine for a second that Kawasaki does something reckless and says, "New for 2018, a limited edition KX500 two stroke. We are only making 500 of them!" The way people scoop up Factory Edition KTM's at +$10,000, I would think all of those KX's would gone in preorders.

Give people back, what they have been asking for. Honda could do the same with new takes on their old line....the TRX250R would be a homerun as well.

Sounds more like the industry is asking, "Why aren't people buying the stuff we want them to buy."
12/18/2017 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 2:03pm
Micahdogg wrote:
"The motorcycle industry doesn't need a better product..." Yeah ok. Just imagine for a second that Kawasaki does something reckless and says, "New for 2018, a...
"The motorcycle industry doesn't need a better product..." Yeah ok.

Just imagine for a second that Kawasaki does something reckless and says, "New for 2018, a limited edition KX500 two stroke. We are only making 500 of them!" The way people scoop up Factory Edition KTM's at +$10,000, I would think all of those KX's would gone in preorders.

Give people back, what they have been asking for. Honda could do the same with new takes on their old line....the TRX250R would be a homerun as well.

Sounds more like the industry is asking, "Why aren't people buying the stuff we want them to buy."
Obviously they could do something like that, and they could sell hundreds of them, and that would be a good thing, so they should... But ultimately, we are talking about what they need to do to sell bikes in the millions.
Mx391
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12/18/2017 2:04pm
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford those things with a mortgage and a young family. Salaries haven't changed much in the last 10-15 years. But you can bet your ass vehicles, motorcycles, etc have gone WAY up!
potatoflake
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12/18/2017 2:06pm
kaptkaos wrote:
In todays economy, anything less than double digit growth year over year is considers failing. Forget making a modest living and running a good company that...
In todays economy, anything less than double digit growth year over year is considers failing.

Forget making a modest living and running a good company that people want to work for and sells a good product. It has to make CEO's and stockholders millionaires or else it a bust.
Ding ding ding ding ding we have a winner!
kaptkaos
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12/18/2017 2:12pm
Mx391 wrote:
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford...
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford those things with a mortgage and a young family. Salaries haven't changed much in the last 10-15 years. But you can bet your ass vehicles, motorcycles, etc have gone WAY up!
This is very true.

I have a 2017 Road Glide Special, I paid $22k for it and i thought that was a lot of money. Apparently there are people who think otherwise as i see $40K CVO's on the floor.

I would love to buy an ADV bike, but theres another $15K, that is just too much. I will wait around and get one on the used market.

Prices are insane. I remember my first brand new bike was a new 1981 CR125R and it cost a whopping $900!
Mx391
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12/18/2017 2:16pm
Mx391 wrote:
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford...
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford those things with a mortgage and a young family. Salaries haven't changed much in the last 10-15 years. But you can bet your ass vehicles, motorcycles, etc have gone WAY up!
kaptkaos wrote:
This is very true. I have a 2017 Road Glide Special, I paid $22k for it and i thought that was a lot of money. Apparently...
This is very true.

I have a 2017 Road Glide Special, I paid $22k for it and i thought that was a lot of money. Apparently there are people who think otherwise as i see $40K CVO's on the floor.

I would love to buy an ADV bike, but theres another $15K, that is just too much. I will wait around and get one on the used market.

Prices are insane. I remember my first brand new bike was a new 1981 CR125R and it cost a whopping $900!
What was the price of a brand new fullsize pickup to haul your bike around in 1981? Surely not 60k.
12/18/2017 2:24pm
kaptkaos wrote:
In todays economy, anything less than double digit growth year over year is considers failing. Forget making a modest living and running a good company that...
In todays economy, anything less than double digit growth year over year is considers failing.

Forget making a modest living and running a good company that people want to work for and sells a good product. It has to make CEO's and stockholders millionaires or else it a bust.
I agree with you. If it isn’t some new start up that just got $50 billion in seed money or growing 20% a year, it’s deemed failing. Single digit growth isn’t ideal for any business but it’s a reality for a lot of people. I will also agree with the article in stating the old dealership model is aged out. I haven’t noticed any significant change or improvement in a very long time to lure people in. We need a case study in Walmart’s brick and mortor transformation and cookie cutter that across the powersports industry.
kaptkaos
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12/18/2017 2:26pm
You could haul it in an El Torino which was about $3500-$4000 brand new.

12/18/2017 2:27pm
Mx391 wrote:
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford...
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford those things with a mortgage and a young family. Salaries haven't changed much in the last 10-15 years. But you can bet your ass vehicles, motorcycles, etc have gone WAY up!
Definitely a valid point. People are working harder and longer just to maintain and not grow. I understand manufacturers have to make money but surely they are seeing 30-40% margins on a new bike. There has to be a point where volume could compensate for margin with a minor price decrease.
12/18/2017 2:33pm
7eleven wrote:
$140 a year for liability in CA. I do not let her out of my sight and she sleeps inside. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/12/18/232671/s1200_E3CD583C_32F0_4DDB_8299_60B44C0B1409.jpg[/img]
$140 a year for liability in CA. I do not let her out of my sight and she sleeps inside.

I had an 07 speed triple with a year full coverage through geico $350. Probably around 2012. Naked bikes are super cheap to insure and you get a gnarly sport engine with ergos halfway between a Dirtbike and a sport bike.

But for the article, pay attention to it. Kids don’t want motorcycles anymore and that’s bad news.
motogrady
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12/18/2017 2:41pm
I'll bite.

There are 3 letters missing.

AMA.

They were created, almost a century ago, with the goal to promote and grow, heck some would say save, the industry back then.
What have they done lately?
Besides offer free towing.

Any ads on TV promoting the lifestyle?
How about radio.
Anyone catch an ad in USA Today on the sport of motorcycling?
I know I haven't.

Besides the magazine, which only existing members get, or the exposure that comes from the different
racing venues, which by the way pay The AMA, what the f@@@ are they doing to promote us to the general public?

Would it kill the budget, are things that tight in Ohio, to run even a few 15 second spots on a few mainstream
programs?

One wonders, is the guy running that organization, with his vision of cloning a 2 wheel AAA, the right guy for the job? Is that the way to secure motorcyclings future growth?

How many here salivate at the thought of free roadside assistance?
Or 15% off a motel bill?
Anyone?
Is that what got you into bikes?

Yes, they say, and probably do, fight for our rights in DC. And I'm not saying that isn't something to be ignored, or taken lightly.

But, that was not their Mission Statement in the beginning.

In ones opinion, they need to read their history, where they came from, and maybe get back to some of that.
They hold a great responsibility to the welfare, and well being of this industry.
Keeping it in the public eye, assuring interest, assuring growth, can and should not be left to the manufacturers and race promoters alone.

If the powers that be, at the very top of the AMA, don't see that, or maybe don't believe that, or don't want to do that, well, maybe it's time for a change, to someone that does.
zookrider62!
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12/18/2017 2:54pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 2:56pm
Mx391 wrote:
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford...
I think it soley has to do with price. Who wants to pay 30k for a street glide? Or 10k for a new 450? Cant afford those things with a mortgage and a young family. Salaries haven't changed much in the last 10-15 years. But you can bet your ass vehicles, motorcycles, etc have gone WAY up!
There are plenty of cheaper bikes available.
I agree the price of motorcycles today isnt doing the industry any favors, but it certainly isnt the biggest factor.

Motorycles did well in the past because they were "cool". That isnt the case anymore, phones are cool and technology is cool. Why buy a motorcycle when you can buy a phone to show off to your friends?
kaptkaos
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12/18/2017 3:04pm
At the end of the day, dirt bikes are dead.

The people that can possibly afford them live in the city where theres nowhere to ride, the few riding areas that do exist are not able to stay in business, all free public land is restricted from riding.

The few people that live in rural land and can afford to ride cant keep the industry alive.

On the street, its gotten so dangerous and bikes are so expensive.

Its a niche industry for well to do folks, its not like selling Corollas. (I was going to say Civics but who can afford one anymore???)
oldblood
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12/18/2017 3:42pm
Interesting read, thanks for posting the thread. (although I don't know why you'd post this when you could have posted another ped thread).
Katoomey
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12/18/2017 3:46pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 3:51pm
someone tell chicken Little the sky is falling.

Motorcycle popularity has been on the decline longer than it was ever on the upswing, especially in the USA. It was a boom. And except for the flurry of activity in the early 2000's (which centered around cruisers and touring, not sport machines), the decline has been pretty consistent since about 1980.

I've been involved with industries much, much smaller than motorcycles, and they're still there, still truckin' along with new products and new niches, one after another, just like always. Personally, I could give 2 shits if motorcycling keeps shrinking. I'm not worried. It will always be here in my lifetime. One can only pretend to care what happens when they are gone.

This state we're in also reaffirms my suspicions that most people don't actually give a shit about the environment. What is more efficient than a motorcycle? They use less oil, less fuel, less rubber, and require the smallest carbon footprint to manufacture. They also do much less wear & tear to the roads...which, last time I checked, were also made out of oil.

Why don't enviro groups promote scooters and motorcycles as a more eco alternatives to cars? Even electric motorcycles are going to be 10 time more efficient than electric cars..

Why are scooters and motorcycles not being subsidized by the government for this purpose? or at the very least promoted?

Why don't manufacturers make it a huge point? They should be cramming this "eco solution" down your throat.

The average , single person, transportation device in the U.S. has 7 cylinders and 4.2l displacement and uses more oil in one year than a mid-sized motorcycle will use in 10. Thats just stupid.
kzizok
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12/18/2017 4:03pm
Societal entertainment shift to distraction (electronics, phones, social media) away from participation (anything else).
malachi177
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12/18/2017 4:11pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 4:17pm
It's mostly too late for millennials. We already squandered the largest (actually larger) generation since the Baby Boom by ignoring them as an industry. The bulk...
It's mostly too late for millennials. We already squandered the largest (actually larger) generation since the Baby Boom by ignoring them as an industry. The bulk of their generation are adults in their mid 20s to 30s, and probably pretty ingrained in their purchasing habits.
Blink My oldest son is 18....he's considered a millennial, as he was born in '99. Millennials are not in their 30's imo. They're late teens to mid twenties tops. Looking on google it says it's between 1982-04.... I don't understand calling someone born in the 1980's a millennial....that is bullshit.
kzizok
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12/18/2017 4:15pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 4:15pm
Late 70’s to late 90’s are millennial’s (general consensus ballpark). Approx 18-40 years of age, currently.
Katoomey
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12/18/2017 4:20pm
kzizok wrote:
Late 70’s to late 90’s are millennial’s (general consensus ballpark). Approx 18-40 years of age, currently.
pretty sure gen x sits comfortably in the beginning of the 1980's... by every single opinion on the matter i could find.

no one has ever mentioned the seventies and millennial together. general consensus?
Motodave15
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12/18/2017 4:23pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2017 4:28pm
Millennial checking in here.
(Im 29, 1988)

This issue is Two Folds, My dad is a baby boomer so he got me into riding when i was 14 in 2004.
Rode a great deal from 14 till about 20. Had to start working and going to school and picked up the sport of hockey. (Mainly due to accessibility, i could go to work and still go play afterwards, almost every damn day)

The issue i see with me and my colleagues, Is that one new bikes are expensive especially when your job isn't even coming close to 50k a year. (even for people with degrees). The second issue has everything to do with getting to riding spots. its far and there is no way you can do anything else with your day, sitting in 1-1/2 hours of traffic going and 2 hrs of traffic heading back home... plus the fees and maintenance cost...and if it explodes your ass aint riding for awhile cost wise

There is hope on the horizon though... Electric bikes,

whoever in the motorcycle industry can make a mx or on-road electric bike thats fun as shit and cost sub 6k (probably impossible) and you would see a fucking explosion from the millennials....Combustion will always have a spot in the heart... but electric will allow old riding spots to come back... and you can sneak off and moto around your neighborhood as the only way to get caught would be for someone to literally watch you (and call the cops on your spot)... because with no sound you can literally do what ever.

I feel like motorcycles have a silver-bullet... but either the technology isn't where it should be battery wise.. or somebody is afraid to go all in.

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