Forum QNA: 2018 Vital MX 250 Shootout

tempura
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tempura 11/6/2017 3:51pm
11/6/2017 3:51pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
I'd be interested to ride the bike with full Yosh system, hi-comp piston, race gas and full dyno mapped. My concern with going up too far...
I'd be interested to ride the bike with full Yosh system, hi-comp piston, race gas and full dyno mapped.

My concern with going up too far with the rear sprocket is that you will it make you have to shift more often? I asked the Honda mechanics at the test and they are starting to try other combinations.
Yes, that concern has crossed my mind also.
That motor's character seems to demand a very busy rider to yield its potential.
tobz
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tobz 11/6/2017 3:56pm
11/6/2017 3:56pm
Would you consider a bike that turns well, but is low on power, an easier donkey to fix rather than a bike that is powerful but inheritably not as good at turning.

With how bikes these days are, power is probably near on the last box to tick on my list
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kiwifan 11/6/2017 3:58pm
11/6/2017 3:58pm
tempura wrote:
Yes, that concern has crossed my mind also.
That motor's character seems to demand a very busy rider to yield its potential.
I think its definitely more pro orientated but also the lesser hit might help those new to a 250F as well. I think a bit more compression, after market exhaust, mapping and perhaps different cams might make this one hell of a VERY fast bike.
tomtruxell
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tomtruxell 11/6/2017 3:58pm
11/6/2017 3:58pm
Did you run it on the dyno in the aggressive mode and what did the curve look like compared to standard mode on the Honda? I race in the woods and like to do tight single-track and I'm concerned with the extra weight of the new bike also.
Thanks! Good work.

The Shop

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tempura
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tempura 11/6/2017 4:06pm
11/6/2017 4:06pm
tobz wrote:
Would you consider a bike that turns well, but is low on power, an easier donkey to fix rather than a bike that is powerful but...
Would you consider a bike that turns well, but is low on power, an easier donkey to fix rather than a bike that is powerful but inheritably not as good at turning.

With how bikes these days are, power is probably near on the last box to tick on my list
That's what has me thinking my current model CRF (which turns very well) with its suspension and motor tweaks, is possibly the better option for me to stick with and hope the Honda picks up a better power curve next year.
nascarnate326
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nascarnate326 11/6/2017 4:38pm
11/6/2017 4:38pm
What fuel do the bikes have when you do the tests on track and tests on dyno?
ML512
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ML512 11/6/2017 4:46pm
11/6/2017 4:46pm
nascarnate326 wrote:
What fuel do the bikes have when you do the tests on track and tests on dyno?
Pump 91, I get it all from this Shell station near my house.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 11/6/2017 5:14pm
11/6/2017 5:14pm
tobz wrote:
Would you consider a bike that turns well, but is low on power, an easier donkey to fix rather than a bike that is powerful but...
Would you consider a bike that turns well, but is low on power, an easier donkey to fix rather than a bike that is powerful but inheritably not as good at turning.

With how bikes these days are, power is probably near on the last box to tick on my list
Personally I'd take a bike that has a comfortable chassis, ergos and suspension over the most powerful bike in the class. But I talked with other riders at the test(faster more aggressive riders) and they prefer to start with a faster bike. I think this test is very well rounded when you get the average from the group.

Only the rider who is purchasing the bike can make that call on what the most important starting point is, because it's a personal characteristic.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 11/6/2017 5:19pm
11/6/2017 5:19pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Hey Michael. What would the new CRF benefit from the most? What mods would you use to make it better?
ML512 wrote:
Added compression...not sure what else yet...going to start on that when I get back from Italy. I've seen some good numbers from Yoshimura just on the...
Added compression...not sure what else yet...going to start on that when I get back from Italy. I've seen some good numbers from Yoshimura just on the exhaust.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I thought the dyno numbers were pretty interesting. The CRF is off a bit from everything else until later in the RPM range. Is the difference...
I thought the dyno numbers were pretty interesting. The CRF is off a bit from everything else until later in the RPM range. Is the difference on the track as big as it looks on the dyno?
ML mentions this in the video where the Yamaha and Honda ended up 1 point apart but are polar opposites. And it's very true, the bottom end of a Yamaha is night and day more powerful over the Honda. Very noticeable. But on the other hand, the Honda pulls much farther on the top end over the Yamaha, if you hang in there with it.
MSM
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MSM 11/6/2017 5:23pm
11/6/2017 5:23pm
ML, any idea on the service intervals Honda calls for on the new engine?
mattyhamz2 11/6/2017 5:30pm
11/6/2017 5:30pm
ML512 wrote:
Added compression...not sure what else yet...going to start on that when I get back from Italy. I've seen some good numbers from Yoshimura just on the...
Added compression...not sure what else yet...going to start on that when I get back from Italy. I've seen some good numbers from Yoshimura just on the exhaust.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I thought the dyno numbers were pretty interesting. The CRF is off a bit from everything else until later in the RPM range. Is the difference...
I thought the dyno numbers were pretty interesting. The CRF is off a bit from everything else until later in the RPM range. Is the difference on the track as big as it looks on the dyno?
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
ML mentions this in the video where the Yamaha and Honda ended up 1 point apart but are polar opposites. And it's very true, the bottom...
ML mentions this in the video where the Yamaha and Honda ended up 1 point apart but are polar opposites. And it's very true, the bottom end of a Yamaha is night and day more powerful over the Honda. Very noticeable. But on the other hand, the Honda pulls much farther on the top end over the Yamaha, if you hang in there with it.
Thanks Joe. I’m headed home from work so I haven’t had a chance to watch the video yet.

I’ve actially got a question for you. How do these new stock bikes compare to your ktm with the pipe and all that?
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 11/6/2017 5:59pm
11/6/2017 5:59pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I thought the dyno numbers were pretty interesting. The CRF is off a bit from everything else until later in the RPM range. Is the difference...
I thought the dyno numbers were pretty interesting. The CRF is off a bit from everything else until later in the RPM range. Is the difference on the track as big as it looks on the dyno?
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
ML mentions this in the video where the Yamaha and Honda ended up 1 point apart but are polar opposites. And it's very true, the bottom...
ML mentions this in the video where the Yamaha and Honda ended up 1 point apart but are polar opposites. And it's very true, the bottom end of a Yamaha is night and day more powerful over the Honda. Very noticeable. But on the other hand, the Honda pulls much farther on the top end over the Yamaha, if you hang in there with it.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Thanks Joe. I’m headed home from work so I haven’t had a chance to watch the video yet. I’ve actially got a question for you. How...
Thanks Joe. I’m headed home from work so I haven’t had a chance to watch the video yet.

I’ve actially got a question for you. How do these new stock bikes compare to your ktm with the pipe and all that?
I'd say my 2016 KTM with Yosh exhaust, hi comp piston, head work, mapped on VP is a mix between a slightly weaker version of the YZ bottom end along with the KTM/Honda top end. But that's also $2,000+ worth of work. You can pretty much carry 3rd gear because it has enough bottom to get out of a corner but also it pulls so far almost to 14k RPM.

Riding these stock bikes made me question doing engine mods in the future. If I upgrade to the 2019 KTM 250sxf, I'd only do filter cage mod, exhaust and maybe ECU if there was an advantage.
mattyhamz2 11/6/2017 6:07pm
11/6/2017 6:07pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
ML mentions this in the video where the Yamaha and Honda ended up 1 point apart but are polar opposites. And it's very true, the bottom...
ML mentions this in the video where the Yamaha and Honda ended up 1 point apart but are polar opposites. And it's very true, the bottom end of a Yamaha is night and day more powerful over the Honda. Very noticeable. But on the other hand, the Honda pulls much farther on the top end over the Yamaha, if you hang in there with it.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Thanks Joe. I’m headed home from work so I haven’t had a chance to watch the video yet. I’ve actially got a question for you. How...
Thanks Joe. I’m headed home from work so I haven’t had a chance to watch the video yet.

I’ve actially got a question for you. How do these new stock bikes compare to your ktm with the pipe and all that?
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
I'd say my 2016 KTM with Yosh exhaust, hi comp piston, head work, mapped on VP is a mix between a slightly weaker version of the...
I'd say my 2016 KTM with Yosh exhaust, hi comp piston, head work, mapped on VP is a mix between a slightly weaker version of the YZ bottom end along with the KTM/Honda top end. But that's also $2,000+ worth of work. You can pretty much carry 3rd gear because it has enough bottom to get out of a corner but also it pulls so far almost to 14k RPM.

Riding these stock bikes made me question doing engine mods in the future. If I upgrade to the 2019 KTM 250sxf, I'd only do filter cage mod, exhaust and maybe ECU if there was an advantage.
That’s pretty interesting to hear. Your bike is pretty sweet. I haven’t ridden a 250f in 8 years so I’m always interested to hear how they change over the years and all that
gsxr6
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gsxr6 11/6/2017 9:12pm
11/6/2017 9:12pm
Wicked cameltoe in ur pic ml! I think the photographer might be messing with u using that one haha
JackLHyde
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JackLHyde 11/6/2017 9:24pm
11/6/2017 9:24pm
For a 30 minute moto, what would be the least tiring bike? I can see the Honda needing a lot of attention to keep it revving.
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Aaryn234 11/6/2017 10:29pm
11/6/2017 10:29pm
ML Why are the spec details different from KTM to Husky. KTM slightly lighter, both different curves on the Dyno.

Do they both come off the same production line?

What are the small differences with build and / or set up from the production line that makes them different on the shop floor.

Could the difference in feel both chassis , suspension wise and engine wise just be down to the individual bike (you may have already answered these above)

Just curious as to how two bikes that are widely regarded as the same bike can be so different.

Brent
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Brent 11/6/2017 10:34pm
11/6/2017 10:34pm
...when is the 350 shoot out?
shkapars
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shkapars 11/6/2017 11:45pm
11/6/2017 11:45pm Edited Date/Time 11/7/2017 12:42am
School.
Physics.

HP = NM x RPM / 7121

Take a look at Honda and KTM torque lines at 11 000. Them crosses. Take the formula and put same numbers in. Equals KTM has more ponies Smile Smile

P.S. I've always been red Smile

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luckynino
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luckynino 11/7/2017 1:28am
11/7/2017 1:28am
Hey Michael,
I like to read and listen to your comments. Very good info. Great test!!

But how comes the Dyno-charts of the KTM & Husky have the exact same (!!) numbers as in '17 ?? To te tenth??

Dyno 2018


Dyno 2017



To me it's obvious you didn't test those two engines but rather duplicated last years results into the graphic. BUT you know well that a dyno graphs are only comparable when done at least the same day on the same Dyno.

BTW: Seeing the Hondas numbers is ridiculous. As a hardcore Red rider this hurts but since i'm a Vet racer on CRs only it's also like seeing some graph off a twostroke Wink




shkapars
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shkapars 11/7/2017 3:15am
11/7/2017 3:15am
ML told he has problems with this year KTM/Husky dyno and he took last years. But anyway if we take KTM torque graph and put in formula, HP numbers are different than in HP graph. For example at 13000 by formula we get only 39,6 but in graph 41,2. At low rpms it is ok but when rpms are grow up HP numbers are multiplied by some coefficient. It is just math.

Explanation of my previous post - if dyno lines cross in torque graph them have to cross on same rpms at HP graph
mreber17
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mreber17 11/7/2017 5:16am
11/7/2017 5:16am
Hey ML,
Any word if any of the aftermarket exhaust companies are looking into a 2 to 1 exhaust for the Honda?
ML512
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ML512 11/7/2017 5:50am
11/7/2017 5:50am Edited Date/Time 11/7/2017 5:51am
mreber17 wrote:
Hey ML,
Any word if any of the aftermarket exhaust companies are looking into a 2 to 1 exhaust for the Honda?
With it having two separate head pipes and exhaust ports, that would be an insane hassle...

I don't think it's likely to happen.
ML512
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ML512 11/7/2017 5:54am
11/7/2017 5:54am
luckynino wrote:
Hey Michael, I like to read and listen to your comments. Very good info. Great test!! But how comes the Dyno-charts of the KTM & Husky...
Hey Michael,
I like to read and listen to your comments. Very good info. Great test!!

But how comes the Dyno-charts of the KTM & Husky have the exact same (!!) numbers as in '17 ?? To te tenth??

Dyno 2018


Dyno 2017



To me it's obvious you didn't test those two engines but rather duplicated last years results into the graphic. BUT you know well that a dyno graphs are only comparable when done at least the same day on the same Dyno.

BTW: Seeing the Hondas numbers is ridiculous. As a hardcore Red rider this hurts but since i'm a Vet racer on CRs only it's also like seeing some graph off a twostroke Wink




I had problems with run files from this year and I'm in Italy now, I had to do a quick fix to get things live. It's not perfect but it's the best I could do half way around the world.
luckynino
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luckynino 11/7/2017 6:26am
11/7/2017 6:26am
Hey Michael,
thanks for the answer.

Enjoy your stay in Milan, i guess you are at the EICMA, correct? Lots of new goodies but even better....lots of hot chicks as well Wink
By the way - There is a very fun track right near Milan: Dorno
If you have the chance go there!

Ciao
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 11/7/2017 7:28am
11/7/2017 7:28am
mreber17 wrote:
Hey ML,
Any word if any of the aftermarket exhaust companies are looking into a 2 to 1 exhaust for the Honda?
A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but the bikes chassis is designed with that in mind they said. Going 2 into 1 would change the chassis feel of the bike as well.
But sounds like we can expect some nice bottom end gains from the Yosh full system.


mreber17
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mreber17 11/7/2017 7:41am
11/7/2017 7:41am
mreber17 wrote:
Hey ML,
Any word if any of the aftermarket exhaust companies are looking into a 2 to 1 exhaust for the Honda?
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but...
A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but the bikes chassis is designed with that in mind they said. Going 2 into 1 would change the chassis feel of the bike as well.
But sounds like we can expect some nice bottom end gains from the Yosh full system.


Do you think the stainless and titanium yosh would provide the same gains just different weights?
cslacker
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cslacker 11/7/2017 7:43am
11/7/2017 7:43am
ML512 wrote:
I answered that question last year and the year before... Tongue
But you are contemplating adding the Alta next year?
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 11/7/2017 7:45am
11/7/2017 7:45am
mreber17 wrote:
Hey ML,
Any word if any of the aftermarket exhaust companies are looking into a 2 to 1 exhaust for the Honda?
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but...
A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but the bikes chassis is designed with that in mind they said. Going 2 into 1 would change the chassis feel of the bike as well.
But sounds like we can expect some nice bottom end gains from the Yosh full system.


mreber17 wrote:
Do you think the stainless and titanium yosh would provide the same gains just different weights?
Yeah, I don't think the material changes the performance. He said they can't make the full carbon canisters because the way they are so tucked into the number plates and frame it would actually get too hot for the carbon. I guess it's the same on the 450. They only have the carbon end caps for Honda.
BobPA
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BobPA 11/7/2017 7:48am
11/7/2017 7:48am
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but...
A representative from Yoshimura said the bike is very sensitive to each pipes diameter and taper. The 2 exhausts are not only for engine performance but the bikes chassis is designed with that in mind they said. Going 2 into 1 would change the chassis feel of the bike as well.
But sounds like we can expect some nice bottom end gains from the Yosh full system.


I am betting that none of us on here would even feel the different chassis characteristics of a different exhaust,
Sofiedog
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Sofiedog 11/8/2017 3:47pm
11/8/2017 3:47pm
Was the data from 2017 bikes used for the hp and torque overlays only the KTM and Husky?
The article said some of the 'optional' maps made more hp than the curve used for the overlay. Which bikes made more hp with their optional map?

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