John Gallagher:"Bottom line it ends with me!"

ACBraap
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Fantasy
4/25/2017 6:16pm
GuyB mentioned Ron Crandall. Always liked Ron. And Roy Janson. And Duke Finch. Got along with Mike Deprete, and Canfield is a good egg. I'm sure...
GuyB mentioned Ron Crandall. Always liked Ron. And Roy Janson. And Duke Finch. Got along with Mike Deprete, and Canfield is a good egg. I'm sure if you asked each of them they could recall some un-popular decisions they each made. Sorta nature of the game, isn't it?
There's a big difference between unpopular and inconsistent.
kiwifan
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4/25/2017 6:20pm
I doubt anyone on Vital could do a better job than Gallagher given the rules that are currently in force....instead of pouring the dislike at him lets attack the rules eh? Given the number of experts in here around the rules I am sure thats a better way of approaching it....
C_Hart3
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4/25/2017 6:38pm
I sure as Hell wouldn't want his job. You will never please everyone. That being said the article really didnt help Gallagher, he did sound very wishy washy. Yes every situation is different and us as viewers probably will never know the full extent of the circumstances. I like that he takes its situation as their own and judges from that. However I do think that it could/should be explained better as to why what penalties were given. Maybe that would calm a few people down. I wouldn't mind seeing the rule book get a little bit more clear. Like in football what is a catch and what isnt a catch, the rulebook is pretty clear but the officials also have the ability to determine parts of it and then they explain what they saw. I am glad therearsnt super strict rules where penalties are flying everywhere.
TXDirt
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4/25/2017 6:51pm
C_Hart3 wrote:
I sure as Hell wouldn't want his job. You will never please everyone. That being said the article really didnt help Gallagher, he did sound very...
I sure as Hell wouldn't want his job. You will never please everyone. That being said the article really didnt help Gallagher, he did sound very wishy washy. Yes every situation is different and us as viewers probably will never know the full extent of the circumstances. I like that he takes its situation as their own and judges from that. However I do think that it could/should be explained better as to why what penalties were given. Maybe that would calm a few people down. I wouldn't mind seeing the rule book get a little bit more clear. Like in football what is a catch and what isnt a catch, the rulebook is pretty clear but the officials also have the ability to determine parts of it and then they explain what they saw. I am glad therearsnt super strict rules where penalties are flying everywhere.
What is a catch and what isn't a catch is the most unclear rule in the entire NFL. That's a great example of what you see on the field contradicts what may or may not be in the rule book. And sometimes what is clearly a catch is not a catch when you read the "rules" in a book. Even though most everyone agrees it's a catch.

That's a great description of what John goes through on every decision.

Again, I don't agree with all his decisions, or sometimes lack of a decisive decision.

He's got a harder job then most of ya'all think or can appreciate. And for those calling for him to lose his job, I think you are all keyboard warrior assholes who wouldn't last 5 seconds doing his job.

The Shop

Excaliburbmx
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4/25/2017 7:15pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
Cool......an ex flagger runs moto!
He is also an ex first grader like all of us but we become so much more as time goes by.
gb4mx
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4/25/2017 7:16pm
Roy Janson......Insport turncoat. Back in the good graces of the AMA the next year. One of the biggest deciders in eliminating the 500 class. The $$$$$ and "effin" politics, from the top level down to amateur. Line - em and go racing. Fuck the crybaby attitudes. Officials and riders.
4/25/2017 8:41pm Edited Date/Time 4/25/2017 8:43pm
It isn't just the punching situation that is inconsistent. Last year Dungey got docked a win for jumping on a red cross flag and when I saw the replays of it I thought it was somewhat unfair to Dungey but he did jump on it despite the flagger not being in the right spot when Dungey came by. I let it go until someone brought up Villopoto clearly jumping on a red light triple. The outcome was, Despite the flagger being in the wrong spot in Dungeys case, Dungey still had his win stripped from him, and Villopoto said he saw the red light but felt it was unsafe to try to stop suddenly and possibly case a jump, so they let Villopoto keep his win. That's the kind of stuff that just doesn't seem right. I wouldn't say anything but it doesn't seem like they're trying to fix those situations.
ledger
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4/25/2017 9:17pm
If this sport wants to take the next step, there is going to have to be a riders "organization", I dare not say union, and they...
If this sport wants to take the next step, there is going to have to be a riders "organization", I dare not say union, and they need to negotiate a lot of issues with the promoters and the AMA, such as giving their input, if not directly making rules then at least having due process and recourse to appeal. They need to negotiate a fairer pay system and organize an insurance option that can protect the riders that are the backbone of the sport but are left blowing in the wind if they get hurt badly. This can be done, and needs to happen. I think it would be an awesome idea to get Lloyds of London as a title sponsor and they can insure the riders too. That would be something else.
Agree 100%.
DanDunes818
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4/25/2017 9:24pm
I flagged quite a few races when I was grounded by my pops. Most people on here know my pops ran Indian Dunes and That was my punishment when I did something wrong, got a C on a report card. My pops would leave my bikes at home and hand me a yellow flag for the weekend. Unsure

I never saw it as a punishment, though. I got $20 bucks for candy Whistling
dkg
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4/25/2017 9:25pm
TXDirt wrote:
I liked some of the answers to be honest. A big problem in the way punishments are handed out in all facets of society is rarely...
I liked some of the answers to be honest. A big problem in the way punishments are handed out in all facets of society is rarely does the punishment fit the crime. Judges have had the decision making stripped from them in a lot of cases and they have these minimum/mandatory sentences now. Judges more and more are not allowed to assess a situation. I believe this is a bad thing in general. And the reason it's gotten to that point is judges in many cases have made mistakes. So I understand why there are some laws like this. So the decision making is removed and they can't assess a situation and just have to go by what the law says.

An example: A 19 year old is dating a 17 year old. They have consensual sex. Well guess what the 19 year old could be looking at minimum 2 -10 years in prison and have to register as a sex offender for life. The judge is not allowed to assess the situation. The law is the law and the penalty is the penalty.

An example: Child brings toy gun to school. Automatic suspension, possible criminal charges. Police called. Why? Because that's the "policy". Those are the "rules" and no way no how is any one smart enough to assess the situation and deviate from those rules.

Now think about the Friese/Anderson situation. If the penalty was the same, Anderson can pay his penalty and basically have no problems. You apply that same penalty to Friese and it could bankrupt him. Anderson has been a very aggressive rider and has taken out many many riders. He basically takes his self out with Friese and gets all pissy about it. He deserved the penalty he got. And maybe needed more.

I do not agree with many of his decisions, but I remind myself that sometimes no matter the decision, I won't agree with it. So it truly is lose lose for the guy.

Overall I think he does a pretty good job. At the end of the day, it wouldn't matter if it was the pope, pappa smurf, and Gandalf making the decisions. There will always be something you don't agree with.

Interesting comments. I appreciate your analysis. I found most,of his comments to be at least reasoned. I don't agree that the circumstances of the rider (i.e. Team, financial resources, etc.) should be a part of the penalty analysis. Rather, it should be determined only by the behavior. Similar behavior should result in similar penalties.

Things I would like to see changed in the rules are:

1. Black flag limited to situations involving safety.
2. Penalties be decided by a 3 member panel comprised of the race director, a former racer and a third official with penalties handed out within 24 hours of the race. Give them time to review.
3. CONSISTENT penalties for the same behavior.
4. An option of issuing a penalty, staying the penalty by putting the rider on probation. If another infraction occurs the rider pays the original penalty plus the penalty for the new infraction. This approach would do more to correct behavior than the current super secret probation or talking to.
5. All penalties are issued with a public statement of the penalty and actions that resulted in the penalty.

Just some thoughts.

On non moto examples you listed, I agree there can be problems. The safety valve to these problems is prosecutorial discretion which handles it pretty well in most cases with the exception of some of the craziness happening in the schools where blind application of the rules brings about a clearly unintended result.
BobPA
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4/25/2017 9:28pm
It isn't just the punching situation that is inconsistent. Last year Dungey got docked a win for jumping on a red cross flag and when I...
It isn't just the punching situation that is inconsistent. Last year Dungey got docked a win for jumping on a red cross flag and when I saw the replays of it I thought it was somewhat unfair to Dungey but he did jump on it despite the flagger not being in the right spot when Dungey came by. I let it go until someone brought up Villopoto clearly jumping on a red light triple. The outcome was, Despite the flagger being in the wrong spot in Dungeys case, Dungey still had his win stripped from him, and Villopoto said he saw the red light but felt it was unsafe to try to stop suddenly and possibly case a jump, so they let Villopoto keep his win. That's the kind of stuff that just doesn't seem right. I wouldn't say anything but it doesn't seem like they're trying to fix those situations.
This, the wild inconsistencies is what bothers me. Saw a video of Cooper Webb clearly jumping under a red cross flag this year, nothing was even mentioned. It is a tough job, but being consistent is not that difficult. PLaying favorites is what gets him the flack.

C'mon GuyB, don't you think that you having gone to high school with the guy is clouding your overall judgement? No one is saying he is a bad guy out of work. But, that interview, coupled with his on the job poor decisions do not give him a good look. Have you noticed that you close knit "in the know" guys won't say a bad word. But, the non bias fans and outsiders see the situation in a totally different perspective.

GuyB
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4/25/2017 9:52pm
BobPA wrote:
This, the wild inconsistencies is what bothers me. Saw a video of Cooper Webb clearly jumping under a red cross flag this year, nothing was even...
This, the wild inconsistencies is what bothers me. Saw a video of Cooper Webb clearly jumping under a red cross flag this year, nothing was even mentioned. It is a tough job, but being consistent is not that difficult. PLaying favorites is what gets him the flack.

C'mon GuyB, don't you think that you having gone to high school with the guy is clouding your overall judgement? No one is saying he is a bad guy out of work. But, that interview, coupled with his on the job poor decisions do not give him a good look. Have you noticed that you close knit "in the know" guys won't say a bad word. But, the non bias fans and outsiders see the situation in a totally different perspective.

I also think when you sit down and talk with him, he has perfectly rational reasons why he does stuff...and there are generally about four or five other facets to the decision-making process.

As others have said, I sure wouldn't want the gig. You're doomed to make someone unhappy.
Katoomey
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4/26/2017 12:12am
500guy wrote:
I consider John a close personal friend, fuck all you guy's for talking shit about him.
first of all, calling a out an official for not being a credible official is hardly shit talk.

Why is he above judgement on a professional level...especially because you know him personally? your ok with criticism as long as it's people you don't know or like? I mean, in your eye's, when is it ok to criticize someone?

people have been complaining about AMA officiating for as long as I can remember, and his name has come up a lot. no one is talking shit. they are saying he isn't very good at his job and they wish for him to be replaced. it isn't nice but that doesn't mean it isn't fair. I understand that it would be impossible not to take that criticism personal, but thats the way it works when you put yourself out there as a "professional" or an "authority" on a subject. Anyone who's ever been paid to do anything falls under that umbrella.

Even in his own words he is inconsistent? how can that be ok?
Katoomey
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4/26/2017 12:34am
GuyB wrote:
I also think when you sit down and talk with him, he has perfectly rational reasons why he does stuff...and there are generally about four or...
I also think when you sit down and talk with him, he has perfectly rational reasons why he does stuff...and there are generally about four or five other facets to the decision-making process.

As others have said, I sure wouldn't want the gig. You're doomed to make someone unhappy.
you can rationalize anything. you're doing it right now.

rationalizations are related to perspective. not everyone has the same perspective.

so as long as everyone understands them in the context in which they were meant (a context which can be clearly defined), rules are unaffected by perspective. they're a fundamental constant.


In principal, I'm actually ok with officiating that can defer to discretion instead of hard rules, but there's no getting away from the fact that that leaves, not only room for tons of error, but a nice margin for manipulation and favoritism...and that's a hard pill to swallow.



4/26/2017 1:09am
Does anyone have a good thing to say about a motocross referee ?

Who's been the best one that you guys have races under ?
4/26/2017 2:35am
I think that part of the problem could be fixed by making his position full time, that way he could spend Monday and Tuesday reviewing the race incidents and consulting with other officials. That leaves a Wednesday to spend drafting improvements to the rules and the system in general (assuming he flies in Thursday and does race weekend stuff after that).
He has the experience, he already has the responsibility/power, now give him the resources (full-time position) and see if it improves. If he doesn't want to go full time or officiating doesn't improve after a full season then fill the position with another candidate.

(obviously this is just a spitball idea but I think it has merit)
4/26/2017 3:28am
Making people happy, or not, shouldn't be a consideration for Gallagher. Only consistency and fairness should be what the goal is. If you punch someone there shouldn't be much difference in the punishment for that at all. To say there are many 'other' factors to take into consideration sounds like he's trying to muddy the waters of a fairly simple case I think. So what if Jason Anderson shouldn't have been mad at Friese, that's irrelevant. So what Barcia made Tickle mad, that's irrelevant too. Their behavior was the same and the punishment shouldn't be different except for unusual incidents. I brought up Dungey getting docked a win for jumping on a red cross flag and compared that to RV not getting stripped a win for jumping a red light triple and I thought that was unfair. The thought that I had when they stripped Dungey was that they were helping tighten up the points in the series by having an excuse to take away Dungeys win. Now that is about as crazy as I get, but there had been talk during that time of Feld wanting to institute a chase-type playoff in supercross because of Dungey having a big points lead again and for two years in a row. Maybe Gallagher thought, 'hey I can help Feld out with tightening the points up a little'? No? Well, HE IS the bottom line.
kkawboy14
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4/26/2017 3:38am
BobPA wrote:
This, the wild inconsistencies is what bothers me. Saw a video of Cooper Webb clearly jumping under a red cross flag this year, nothing was even...
This, the wild inconsistencies is what bothers me. Saw a video of Cooper Webb clearly jumping under a red cross flag this year, nothing was even mentioned. It is a tough job, but being consistent is not that difficult. PLaying favorites is what gets him the flack.

C'mon GuyB, don't you think that you having gone to high school with the guy is clouding your overall judgement? No one is saying he is a bad guy out of work. But, that interview, coupled with his on the job poor decisions do not give him a good look. Have you noticed that you close knit "in the know" guys won't say a bad word. But, the non bias fans and outsiders see the situation in a totally different perspective.

GuyB wrote:
I also think when you sit down and talk with him, he has perfectly rational reasons why he does stuff...and there are generally about four or...
I also think when you sit down and talk with him, he has perfectly rational reasons why he does stuff...and there are generally about four or five other facets to the decision-making process.

As others have said, I sure wouldn't want the gig. You're doomed to make someone unhappy.
I don't think it would be very difficult of a job. It is possible to be consistent in any job. And people have a built in barometer of what's fair or balanced. Much of what he has done doesn't pass the smell test amongst the fans not just the riders.
4/26/2017 5:36am
He has a tough job and does pretty good but he didn't do himself any favors with that interview.
4/26/2017 7:18am
Who did Gallagher grab by the helmet and scream at on live TV a few seasons back?
4/26/2017 11:59am
TripleFive wrote:
Who did Gallagher grab by the helmet and scream at on live TV a few seasons back?
Don't know if he grabbed the helmet, but he addressed Bowers on TV.
Ozzy
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4/26/2017 1:31pm
NO COMMENT!!
Gale19XX
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4/26/2017 5:05pm
"Justin learned that type of thing not only screwed the other guy but also took him out as well."

I'm pretty sure Justin could give a shit less about screwing the "other guy" but I'm not positive. His history would lead me to believe that. Mother Hubbard Gallagher should put one of his 12 trustworthy dorks over by the exiting tunnel. I'm pretty sure I seen Anderson take himself out swinging on Vince. It looked horribly embarrassing and you can't argue he learned something from that. I would think if he learned something from it, he shouldnt have been disqualified. Atleast that's what Dr Gallagher said!
Phantom 661
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4/26/2017 5:11pm
TripleFive wrote:
Who did Gallagher grab by the helmet and scream at on live TV a few seasons back?
Was it Canard?

Anyway, my take on the interview is that reading John's explanations regarding rule enforcement makes him appear inconsistent. I believe he runs a tight ship and has a no nonsense approach with the riders. The Barcia and Tickle incident explanation didn't sound right. If there's a clear and blatant violation of a specific rule, then that rule should be enforced and not explaind away by the rule enforcer. Not everything is black and white of course.... but when it is it needs of be equal in consequences of violation.
Old&New
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4/26/2017 5:32pm
gb4mx wrote:
Roy Janson......Insport turncoat. Back in the good graces of the AMA the next year. One of the biggest deciders in eliminating the 500 class. The $$$$$...
Roy Janson......Insport turncoat. Back in the good graces of the AMA the next year. One of the biggest deciders in eliminating the 500 class. The $$$$$ and "effin" politics, from the top level down to amateur. Line - em and go racing. Fuck the crybaby attitudes. Officials and riders.
Most spot on and honest post of this thread.
speed_racer
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4/26/2017 6:11pm
Ozzy wrote:
NO COMMENT!!
Bro, you should write a book!

If anyone cares to chime in that has personal knowledge.

Has this guy ever given better treatment to someone because they are a long time friend?
Maybe been easy on a racer because he knows the team manager for many years and they eat out together?
Acted harder or more stern because the racer doesn't like him?
Does he judge softly if you buy lunch?

A yes or no will do.



Dan533NZ
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NZ
4/26/2017 7:42pm
Wow John just wow. Maybe the rule book does need some work but clearly he is not the right person for the job.
acres951
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CA
4/26/2017 7:53pm Edited Date/Time 4/26/2017 7:54pm
GuyB wrote:
I also think when you sit down and talk with him, he has perfectly rational reasons why he does stuff...and there are generally about four or...
I also think when you sit down and talk with him, he has perfectly rational reasons why he does stuff...and there are generally about four or five other facets to the decision-making process.

As others have said, I sure wouldn't want the gig. You're doomed to make someone unhappy.
Katoomey wrote:
you can rationalize anything. you're doing it right now. rationalizations are related to perspective. not everyone has the same perspective. so as long as everyone understands...
you can rationalize anything. you're doing it right now.

rationalizations are related to perspective. not everyone has the same perspective.

so as long as everyone understands them in the context in which they were meant (a context which can be clearly defined), rules are unaffected by perspective. they're a fundamental constant.


In principal, I'm actually ok with officiating that can defer to discretion instead of hard rules, but there's no getting away from the fact that that leaves, not only room for tons of error, but a nice margin for manipulation and favoritism...and that's a hard pill to swallow.



Wow, that was pretty well worded/insightful for an mx site.
4/29/2017 7:44pm
Was Savatgy's pushment "equitable"? Should Marvin and KTM be punished? Going to be an interesting week for Mr. Gallagher!
wfo4ever
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4/29/2017 8:37pm
KTM will not have any thing done to them for using "Team Orders". They could have made it not look so obvious. It just makes KTM look bad, as it did for Yamaha years ago with the "Let Broc Bye" issue.

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