hats off to all of the sand baggers

GuyB
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GuyB 1/1/2017 4:59pm
1/1/2017 4:59pm Edited Date/Time 1/1/2017 5:00pm
MTBrider92 wrote:
I have noticed lately that a lot of industry insiders have been putting pressure on the 'sandbaggers' in 2017 to grow a pair and move into...
I have noticed lately that a lot of industry insiders have been putting pressure on the 'sandbaggers' in 2017 to grow a pair and move into 450s lately. and I think a lot of people agree!

I mean come on. Davalos, the king of sandbagging, whats it been 50 years in the lites class? and all he does is win one race, then crash out of two. Davlos, cunningham, bowers, alex martin, dan reardon now that he's back , josh hansen (when/if he races lites), zach osbourne, kyle chisholm and phil nicoletti (both of them back in the lites are you kidding me???), and anyone else i forgot to mention.

they are all just getting in the way of more promising young guns who still have a shot at winning races. heck, even christian craig is toying with the sandbagging category if you take into consideration his pro career prior to retiring.

forgive me for being so cynical but i mean come on grandpas, move up already. the lites class should be designated for 2 categories of riders: 1, the young kids who have only been racing for a couple years (5 at the maximum), or for privateers who are struggling to make mains.

when you take all of this into consideration, and then add the fact that freaking josh grant and kyle chisholm got rides before malcolm stewart and dean wilson, it all adds up to a season full of unfortunate circumstances.
50 years? That might be a slight exaggeration.

"they are all just getting in the way of more promising young guns who still have a shot at winning races..."

If the more promising youg guns are not beating them, I'm not sure how they're getting in the way...

Let's be real here. There are two pro classes. One runs an east/west series for SX, and the other runs all the rounds. If you look at how talent-laden the 450 class is (at least before they start getting hurt), who would the guys you're talking about push out?
machine
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machine 1/1/2017 5:10pm
1/1/2017 5:10pm
TeamGreen wrote:
I really dig the amount of thought that's gone into these arguments; but, we're over thinking it. Here's how a team owner/manager looks at things: "Who's...
I really dig the amount of thought that's gone into these arguments; but, we're over thinking it.

Here's how a team owner/manager looks at things: "Who's the fastest available rider that we can get?"
Obviously the riders they look at have to meet the 250 class reqmts and can't have pointed out already.

They're looking for a championship.

Period.
True and technically, both classes are pro classes. Look, from a fan standpoint I get the OP, but at the end of the day, it's what you said. Everyone knows the big money is in the 450's, but not everyone can be a top 450 racer. Just the way it be...
machine
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machine 1/1/2017 5:14pm
1/1/2017 5:14pm
GuyB wrote:
50 years? That might be a slight exaggeration. "they are all just getting in the way of more promising young guns who still have a shot...
50 years? That might be a slight exaggeration.

"they are all just getting in the way of more promising young guns who still have a shot at winning races..."

If the more promising youg guns are not beating them, I'm not sure how they're getting in the way...

Let's be real here. There are two pro classes. One runs an east/west series for SX, and the other runs all the rounds. If you look at how talent-laden the 450 class is (at least before they start getting hurt), who would the guys you're talking about push out?
Do you ever see them combining the 2 coasts?
Sir Roostsalot 1/1/2017 5:14pm
1/1/2017 5:14pm
You know, if one rider had been dominating and winnning every 250 series for the last few years I would call it sandbagging, but that isn't the case.

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machine
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machine 1/1/2017 5:16pm
1/1/2017 5:16pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
You're inventing the problem that doesn't exist. If the teams feel that a younger rider has more potential, they'll snatch them up. You also don't appear...
You're inventing the problem that doesn't exist.

If the teams feel that a younger rider has more potential, they'll snatch them up.

You also don't appear to understand the difference between sandbagging and cherry picking.........
"You also don't appear to understand the difference between sandbagging and cherry picking....."

Laughing
Flip109
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Flip109 1/1/2017 5:44pm
1/1/2017 5:44pm
agn5009 wrote:
Your flaws are that this is real life and these guys are trying to make real life money. If they can get a good ride in...
Your flaws are that this is real life and these guys are trying to make real life money. If they can get a good ride in the 250 class and make good money, why would they move up? Most of those guys you listed probably wouldn't sniff the top 10 most of the time which in return wouldn't net them much money. Whether you like it or not, this is a business for everyone involved. Everyone has to make a living to provide for themselves and their family. Why knock guys for doing that?
I'm with this
Bultaco
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Bultaco 1/1/2017 6:07pm
1/1/2017 6:07pm
Fact #1. The guy/gal/corporation with the $$$$ makes the decisions on whom to hire for what reasons and what job. The person (professional motorcycle racer in this example) being offered the job has a choice whether to take/decline the offer.

Fact #2. Everything else is details and cherry picking/sandbagging is not one of them.
lostboy819 1/1/2017 6:08pm
1/1/2017 6:08pm
slipdog wrote:
There are just a few flaws in your rant....
MTBrider92 wrote:
and my flaws would be.....
Well for one, "sandbagger" is not even the correct term.
Matt Wozney
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Matt Wozney 1/1/2017 6:17pm
1/1/2017 6:17pm
"Sandbagger" is an amateur motocross word.
chump6784
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chump6784 1/1/2017 6:44pm
1/1/2017 6:44pm
In my opinion the 250 class is not a feeder class, its a pro class. The East/West should be dropped and it should be combined like the 450's.

Scrap the pointing out rules. If a guy wants the spend his entire career on the 250 then so be it.

Keep the payout difference between the classes to entice the faster guys to move up for better prize money

Possible salary cap in the 250 class. I'm not 100% sold on this myself but it could be a way to motivate guys to move up. If their salary is capped and the prize money is less it makes the 450 class look more attractive but I'm kinda 50/50 on this anyway

A proper feeder class, non televised, 250cc non factory bikes and 20-30k claiming rule. Make this the East/West class. I don't know if there is enough time in the program for this so it may not be feasible.

Personally if I was getting paid to race the 250 class and was eligible I would take it. No one is "sandbagging," they are making the best of what they can get
bama205
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bama205 1/1/2017 6:59pm
1/1/2017 6:59pm
It's 250.


Not lites.


Ass hats
djc
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djc 1/1/2017 7:00pm
1/1/2017 7:00pm
I honelsy don't see why anyone care about how long someone stays in the 250 class. So what.

I personally rather keep the class the way it is east/west separate. In sx lately these are the most exciting classes and we get two for one in a season. Double the action and it's more exciting. I feel it's better for us in terms of watching. West coast ends and then east coast starts. Plus why force guys up because guys winning in the 250 class may be a tenth place guy in 450.
bsharkey
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bsharkey 1/1/2017 7:04pm
1/1/2017 7:04pm Edited Date/Time 1/1/2017 7:05pm
PremixKid wrote:
The problem is that theres not enough rides in the 450 class
this pisses me of more than anything else. how can there be so few ides available. at least where I live the economy has recovered well but kids are still hanging up the boots early and moving on. the writing is on the wall for mx racers. we are having record attendance from racers, the kids classes have all been packed like ive never seen which is good locally but still no pros showing up to race because there is no purse money. sorry but that fucking sucks.
Skerby
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Skerby 1/1/2017 7:06pm
1/1/2017 7:06pm Edited Date/Time 1/1/2017 7:09pm
Break the 450 class into an east and west coast group, then shootout for the title. This is sort of how football works, I think.

Just like the 250 class but onlu hand out one championship. Do the same thing in the 250 class, two coasts one title.
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 1/1/2017 7:09pm
1/1/2017 7:09pm
PremixKid wrote:
The problem is that theres not enough rides in the 450 class
bsharkey wrote:
this pisses me of more than anything else. how can there be so few ides available. at least where I live the economy has recovered well...
this pisses me of more than anything else. how can there be so few ides available. at least where I live the economy has recovered well but kids are still hanging up the boots early and moving on. the writing is on the wall for mx racers. we are having record attendance from racers, the kids classes have all been packed like ive never seen which is good locally but still no pros showing up to race because there is no purse money. sorry but that fucking sucks.
Team Green already dispelled this myth.

You're not going to get a whole lot more teams (that can pay the bills at least!) when only 20 guys make the main each night. Even most of those guys aren't getting any TV time to speak of, so the only real exposure that the sponsors may get is from the folks walking through the pits. That's not a ton of exposure compared to the expense of packing a full SX/MX team around the country a couple of times each year......
bsharkey
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bsharkey 1/1/2017 7:14pm
1/1/2017 7:14pm
PremixKid wrote:
The problem is that theres not enough rides in the 450 class
bsharkey wrote:
this pisses me of more than anything else. how can there be so few ides available. at least where I live the economy has recovered well...
this pisses me of more than anything else. how can there be so few ides available. at least where I live the economy has recovered well but kids are still hanging up the boots early and moving on. the writing is on the wall for mx racers. we are having record attendance from racers, the kids classes have all been packed like ive never seen which is good locally but still no pros showing up to race because there is no purse money. sorry but that fucking sucks.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Team Green already dispelled this myth. You're not going to get a whole lot more teams (that can pay the bills at least!) when only 20...
Team Green already dispelled this myth.

You're not going to get a whole lot more teams (that can pay the bills at least!) when only 20 guys make the main each night. Even most of those guys aren't getting any TV time to speak of, so the only real exposure that the sponsors may get is from the folks walking through the pits. That's not a ton of exposure compared to the expense of packing a full SX/MX team around the country a couple of times each year......
well they made it work in the past? why cant they do it again? something needs to change and soon. look at all these guys who don't have rides who have serious talent let alone the local pro guys who can ride on a ama or Sx pro level
ctbale
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ctbale 1/1/2017 7:18pm
1/1/2017 7:18pm
Aaryn234 wrote:
OK Genius, tell me on what team Davalos, Cunningham, Bowers, Alex martin, Dan Reardon , Josh Hansen Zach Osbourne, Kyle chisholm and Phil Nicoletti are riding...
OK Genius, tell me on what team Davalos, Cunningham, Bowers, Alex martin, Dan Reardon , Josh Hansen Zach Osbourne, Kyle chisholm and Phil Nicoletti are riding if they move up to the 450 class this year???

Are you telling me you would leave your current job because someone told you that you have been in it too long and are now over qualified and should move on, even though there is no place for you to go.

Every single one of those listed riders would be in the same situation as Wilson, Weimer and Stewart if they were to move up and effectivley we would not see half of that talent racing apart from in heats and semis.

Like in the rest of the working world, new talent will get a chance by either being so good they can not be over looked OR a company (A Team) chooses to invest in their future.

The good kids already have the best chance to make it, they are picked up young and guided with support through the amateur ranks and if they show enough they have a ride in the 250 class anyway and generally on a top teir team, that is not going to change.

I don't see a problem, the only problem at the moment is a good one, there is so much good talent out there the fields are stacked, in theory the 450 class is at a point where there will be no privateers in the main event at the opening rounds, well apart from Deno and Malcolm! How is that a bad thing.

Lappers of old will not be seen at the opening rounds, if the leaders lap up into the top ten, they are lapping factory riders, really fucking fast factory riders!

Again go check out the RacerX preview shows, in the first four shows they list of 15 riders who if you looked at any of them individually I would say they lay somewhere between a certainty or at worst a good chance to make the podium during the season, at very worst they will land one top five finish.

In reality some of those guys will also have to be lappers if the leader starts lapping inside the top 15 at round one!

Then the last show lists another five riders that are probably in the same boat! The final show has Bogle, Malcom Stewart, Brayton, Wilson, Tickle and also JS7.

20 (21 if you include James). All should make the main event, leaving 1-2 spots open for the best Supercross riders in the WORLD.

Now add those nine guys you listed at the top to that list, where would they fit in? All great riders but who is hiring them for a paid 450 ride when their odds of making a main against the current 450 line up is 50/50 at best and making the top ten would be pretty slim early in the season.

SX is a sport where only the top few riders get coverage, its not like a team sport where you still have 10,000 to 100,000 of thousands of fans cheering for a team that is not getting results in a particular season. There is always hope for many years to come in team sports, in SX riders have a very limited career.

It is an individual sport in terms of what sponsors see, it will always be a sport where the elite get the majority of the money and the ONLY way for the rest of the field, especially those guys at the back end of the main events or who make up the evening show in the top 40 to make a decent living is if the promoter come through and pay them more to help put on the show.

Relax, sit back and enjoy some great racing as of next weekend.

Moving the guys listed out of the 250 class is not going to make the 450 class any better, well not until injuries start to hit.

And having those guys you listed in the 250 class actually helps lift the level in those classes so the new guys coming through know from the start just how tough it is going to be to make it out the 250 class.

For those that can't make it into the 250 East or West there is always arenacross.

^^^^^This post has perfect paragraphs!!! Thats how much I hate this topic, I am more interested in sentence structure! lol
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 1/1/2017 7:26pm
1/1/2017 7:26pm
bsharkey wrote:
well they made it work in the past? why cant they do it again? something needs to change and soon. look at all these guys who...
well they made it work in the past? why cant they do it again? something needs to change and soon. look at all these guys who don't have rides who have serious talent let alone the local pro guys who can ride on a ama or Sx pro level
I doubt there's ever been as many "paid" rides in the premier class as there are right now. Again, Manny (Team Green) pretty much illuminated that already.

Things are different than they used to be. Used to be that some guys would get a "ride" for a year or two, and either make it or not. If not, they'd fade out and return to racing local pro with the occasional National and maybe try to qualify for a local SX or so. Rich Coon, Ron Sun, etc come to mind. They were fast guys, but once they were cut from a factory team they weren't around nearly as much.

Now guys who aren't a threat to win hang around for many years. That's great for them, but it changes the dynamic of things. Nick Wey is a great example. He wasn't a true threat to win for a long time, but his popularity made him a decent rider for a team who wanted at least some exposure. He was probably going to make most mains, too.

In late 70s, to mid 80s, he probably wouldn't have been kept by a supported team and probably wouldn't have had a "paid" ride.

Times have changed. For the better if you're a guy like Nick!

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TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 1/1/2017 7:45pm
1/1/2017 7:45pm
PremixKid wrote:
The problem is that theres not enough rides in the 450 class
bsharkey wrote:
this pisses me of more than anything else. how can there be so few ides available. at least where I live the economy has recovered well...
this pisses me of more than anything else. how can there be so few ides available. at least where I live the economy has recovered well but kids are still hanging up the boots early and moving on. the writing is on the wall for mx racers. we are having record attendance from racers, the kids classes have all been packed like ive never seen which is good locally but still no pros showing up to race because there is no purse money. sorry but that fucking sucks.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Team Green already dispelled this myth. You're not going to get a whole lot more teams (that can pay the bills at least!) when only 20...
Team Green already dispelled this myth.

You're not going to get a whole lot more teams (that can pay the bills at least!) when only 20 guys make the main each night. Even most of those guys aren't getting any TV time to speak of, so the only real exposure that the sponsors may get is from the folks walking through the pits. That's not a ton of exposure compared to the expense of packing a full SX/MX team around the country a couple of times each year......
I think the other thing that's over-looked is the -expanded- OEM participation in the 250 class.

Suzuki just added a team via JGR.
Honda via MCR just added 2.

Let's do the math, because it's surprising.

Geico F/C Honda: 4
Monster PC Kawi: 4
Star Yamaha : 4
TLD-KTM: 4 (5 later in the season..?)
RkyMt KTM: 1
Rockstar Husky: 2
5150 Yamaha: 2
MCR Honda: 2
JGR Suzuki: 2
CT/RR Yamaha: 2
Munn KTM: 1 (2?)
Hanny Husky: 1

I think that's 29 factory backed or supported riders in 250s and I probably screwed up left some out! TWENTY NINE.

So...there's plenty of young-guns like Forkner, Bloss, Harrison, Taft, Locurcio, Plessinger...etc...and...yes...there's a few vet's in this class and I'm fine with it.

Note: there's quite a few bikes out there getting OEM support. I don't see any reason for all the negativity about "not enough rides".

So, Applebro? "I concur!"
Electro21
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Electro21 1/1/2017 8:34pm
1/1/2017 8:34pm
So stupid to call it sandbagging, especially if they aren't breaking any rules. In my opinion, there shouldn't be any rules on ovine up. It's professional racing and they should be allowed to race in whatever class they want in order to make living.
gt80rider
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gt80rider 1/1/2017 8:51pm
1/1/2017 8:51pm
PremixKid wrote:
The problem is that theres not enough rides in the 450 class
Exactly, and IMO that is a good thing... that is the point where you either have a quality ride in the 450s, or you start working construction and get on with your real future.... too many "almost good enough" guys have been taking high quality rides away from younger guys that might do something better with it...

we have pretty much gotten pwned by the Euros for the last half decade.... we arguably have more riders, with more money, with better tracks, than the rest of the world combined... we should be crushing them, but we are not... something is broken in our system, we should be generating more elite/top-3 in the world type racers, but we are not.... part of that problem could be that Davalos (among MANY others) has taken a half dozen good rides away from 16 yr olds that might be a little rough around the edges, but might turn out to be a Stanton if given some time and quality equipment to race with... teams will keep picking up those type of riders for "right now top 5 results" for as long as the sanctioning body keeps allowing them to.... all the while, wayyy too many young riders get zero help to start with, they end up doing construction instead of maturing into perhaps "best in the world" type riders...
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holeshot413 1/1/2017 10:24pm
1/1/2017 10:24pm
Ill say it again there is NO sandbagging in the PRO class!! Some guys are better in on e or the other a rare few EXCELL at both!!
GuyB
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GuyB 1/1/2017 10:30pm
1/1/2017 10:30pm
machine wrote:
Do you ever see them combining the 2 coasts?
Do you want half as many opportunities? I don't.
machine
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machine 1/1/2017 11:37pm
1/1/2017 11:37pm
GuyB wrote:
Do you want half as many opportunities? I don't.
True...just wondering if you had heard anything floating around to the effect. Wink
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bvm111 1/2/2017 1:55am
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roninho
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roninho 1/2/2017 5:47am
1/2/2017 5:47am
MTBrider92 wrote:
This is a good point, but the thing that irks me about that part of the issue is the principle of the matter. A rider that...
This is a good point, but the thing that irks me about that part of the issue is the principle of the matter.

A rider that says yes to a lot money in the tiddler class and no to moving up to 450s to become relevant is a rider that is just contributing to a problem.
There are quite some examples of more succesfull 250 riders who are without a ride in the 450 class so i am curious where Davalos should have gone in the 450 class?

Looking at the riders without a ride in 450 I would be surprised if Davalos would have been able to secure a decent payday in the 450 class. And i would be shocked if Davalos would have been able to secure a better paid gig compared to his current 250 deal. I mean as a 250 SX rider he actually has some marketing value contending for a top3 spot, whereas in 450 he'll just be another guy outside the top 10.

So yeah, i don't think he had options outside of 250, but even if he had imo there is nothing wrong staying in the 250 class. It's not like young talent isn't getting a shot in the 250class, and he is a nice benchmark for the young guns in the class.
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Fearo 1/2/2017 5:58am
1/2/2017 5:58am Edited Date/Time 1/2/2017 6:00am
I agree largely with the OP's post, but maybe not for the same reasons.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Cunningham, Hansen, Davalos or whoever for riding the 250 class. Is it sandbagging? yes, but it is allowed by the powers that be. For most of those guys it is the difference between having a job and not having a job, so I get that.

That said, the 250 class should have an age rule, just like MX2 in Europe (one of the only good things about the GP's) so young kids can have a chance at a pro contract. The phrase "shit or get off the pot" comes to mind for the 250 sandbaggers. Either prove that you have the speed to make mains in the 450 class, or realize that you do not have it and try your luck elsewhere. Arenacross, Endurocross, or perhaps a day job like the rest of us fools, and make room for youngsters so they can have the same opportunities that the veterans were given when they started out.
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Mr. Info 1/2/2017 7:59am
1/2/2017 7:59am
Moving up means spending their own money and then being entitled goes out the window. Can't give a free bike to everyone.
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mark_swart 1/2/2017 9:35am
1/2/2017 9:35am
I sort of like the fact that guys like the Forkners and Webbs have to fight past established guys like Osborne and Davalos if they want to win.

With the length of careers now, we don't need to do anything to force guys up and out of this class any faster than they are.
MTBrider92
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MTBrider92 1/2/2017 1:05pm
1/2/2017 1:05pm
GuyB wrote:
50 years? That might be a slight exaggeration. "they are all just getting in the way of more promising young guns who still have a shot...
50 years? That might be a slight exaggeration.

"they are all just getting in the way of more promising young guns who still have a shot at winning races..."

If the more promising youg guns are not beating them, I'm not sure how they're getting in the way...

Let's be real here. There are two pro classes. One runs an east/west series for SX, and the other runs all the rounds. If you look at how talent-laden the 450 class is (at least before they start getting hurt), who would the guys you're talking about push out?
fine, fine, 45 years. whatever.

and the young guys are beating him every year!! maybe not at every race, but he is a proven failure that absolutely cannot handle the pressure of holding the points lead. literally every single season he starts off winning and/or is in the hunt then just totally cracks under the pressure and fails. but because he can win, he keeps getting factory rides. every year he wins some battles but loses the war. and the cycle repeats itself. and mark my words, this will happen again in 2017.

Post a reply to: hats off to all of the sand baggers