Matthes on 250 class

p0wn
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p0wn 11/30/2016 1:13pm
11/30/2016 1:13pm
There just needs to be more money in MX/SX in general. We've got so much damn talent nowadays. If all the good/experienced 250 riders were bumped up to 450's there'd be no rides for them.
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 11/30/2016 1:19pm
11/30/2016 1:19pm
I wonder how much the GP2 guys make compared to F1.

Im pretty sure there is a financial incentive to want to move up.

GuyB
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GuyB 11/30/2016 1:21pm
11/30/2016 1:21pm
Sorry, I don't buy it. The manufacturers still have 250 product that they want to showcase. They also like winning.

Take away the handful of guys who were at the top of the class last year, and you'd have an incrementally better 450 class, but a much less exciting 250 class.

Same question as before. Move up some of the factory-supported 250 guys to 450...where do they land?

Look at how many riders the manufacturers each have in their 450 factory efforts.

Kawasaki 2
Honda 2
Yamaha 2 (for SX)
KTM 3
Suzuki (well, we have to wait and see what the official tally is, but let's say four...two for RCH, and two for JGR)
Husky 2
Rocky Mountain/KTM 3

If we take away the east/west, are factory-supported teams going to keep the same number of riders on their rosters? I'd think that it'd look a lot more like the 450 levels listed above.

I think some guys (Lamson, Brown, maybe Davalos) are better-suited for the smaller bikes. I know there's a program in place to nudge guys up to the big-bore class, but it's also a one-way path with a cliff at the end.

Remember, some of the "veterans" in there (Craig and Osborne) are guys who either took lots of time off due to injury, raced overseas, etc.
Ted722
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Ted722 11/30/2016 1:26pm
11/30/2016 1:26pm
DB125 wrote:
Get rid of 450s all together. They are faster and gnarlier than 500cc 2 strokes used to be. Only 5-7 guys can even ride them to...
Get rid of 450s all together. They are faster and gnarlier than 500cc 2 strokes used to be. Only 5-7 guys can even ride them to full capabilities, which is why the racing is so boring. Plus guys wouldnt have to train so hard and burnout/retire so early (RV,RC).

2 classes:

125cc. 18 years-21 years. No factory support. No TV time. No points championship.

PREMIER class: 250cc 4-stroke. 18 years+
60 riders make night show.
3 heats (top 10 qualify to Semi-finals)
1 Lcq (top 10 qualify to Semi-finals)

2 Semi-finals (Top 9 qualify to Mains)
1 Eliminator (top 2 qualify to Mains)

3 Main Events. (12 laps each)
Overall winner gets 25 points and so on (22,20,18,etc)

On TV only show 3 Heats, 2 Semi-finals, and 3 Mains.

Better racing. Everyone on 250s. Get to see Roczen, Tomac, Dungey 5 times a night instead of 2.
Would I like to see Roczen, Dungey, Tomac with Malcolm, Webb, Seely, Musquin, Martins', etc on 250's? Sign me up. Breath of fresh air.

Everything above, but allow 250cc 2-stroke (Canada style if need be).

Local 125cc race would be worth the price of admission and would sell more tickets since it wouldn't be on TV.

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GuyB
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GuyB 11/30/2016 1:32pm
11/30/2016 1:32pm
#blackbackgroundsmatter
DB125
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DB125 11/30/2016 1:33pm
11/30/2016 1:33pm
DB125 wrote:
Get rid of 450s all together. They are faster and gnarlier than 500cc 2 strokes used to be. Only 5-7 guys can even ride them to...
Get rid of 450s all together. They are faster and gnarlier than 500cc 2 strokes used to be. Only 5-7 guys can even ride them to full capabilities, which is why the racing is so boring. Plus guys wouldnt have to train so hard and burnout/retire so early (RV,RC).

2 classes:

125cc. 18 years-21 years. No factory support. No TV time. No points championship.

PREMIER class: 250cc 4-stroke. 18 years+
60 riders make night show.
3 heats (top 10 qualify to Semi-finals)
1 Lcq (top 10 qualify to Semi-finals)

2 Semi-finals (Top 9 qualify to Mains)
1 Eliminator (top 2 qualify to Mains)

3 Main Events. (12 laps each)
Overall winner gets 25 points and so on (22,20,18,etc)

On TV only show 3 Heats, 2 Semi-finals, and 3 Mains.

Better racing. Everyone on 250s. Get to see Roczen, Tomac, Dungey 5 times a night instead of 2.
Ted722 wrote:
Would I like to see Roczen, Dungey, Tomac with Malcolm, Webb, Seely, Musquin, Martins', etc on 250's? Sign me up. Breath of fresh air. Everything above...
Would I like to see Roczen, Dungey, Tomac with Malcolm, Webb, Seely, Musquin, Martins', etc on 250's? Sign me up. Breath of fresh air.

Everything above, but allow 250cc 2-stroke (Canada style if need be).

Local 125cc race would be worth the price of admission and would sell more tickets since it wouldn't be on TV.
Roczen
Dungey
Tomac
Anderson
Seely
Webb
Canard
Barcia
Musquin
Bogle
Wilson
Grant
Alessi
Brayton
Savatgy
Cianciarulo
Hill
Forkner
Malcolm
Martin
Plessinger
Nichols
Craig
McElrath

All on 250s.

Get to watch them 5 times a night (Heat, Semi, 3 Mains)

Sport fixed. Get rid of 450's!!!!!!!
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 11/30/2016 1:37pm
11/30/2016 1:37pm
And this sport doesn't sound good. Think it doesn't matter?

A few years ago F1 died with the shit sound of those low rpm turbos. Live and TV viewership took a shit.

There is no "those bikes sound rad" anymore. Only reason We went to 2 Nationals was for Stank Dog. And it was glorious. Wouldn't have went otherwise.
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DonM 11/30/2016 1:39pm
11/30/2016 1:39pm
GuyB wrote:
Sorry, I don't buy it. The manufacturers still have 250 product that they want to showcase. They also like winning. Take away the handful of guys...
Sorry, I don't buy it. The manufacturers still have 250 product that they want to showcase. They also like winning.

Take away the handful of guys who were at the top of the class last year, and you'd have an incrementally better 450 class, but a much less exciting 250 class.

Same question as before. Move up some of the factory-supported 250 guys to 450...where do they land?

Look at how many riders the manufacturers each have in their 450 factory efforts.

Kawasaki 2
Honda 2
Yamaha 2 (for SX)
KTM 3
Suzuki (well, we have to wait and see what the official tally is, but let's say four...two for RCH, and two for JGR)
Husky 2
Rocky Mountain/KTM 3

If we take away the east/west, are factory-supported teams going to keep the same number of riders on their rosters? I'd think that it'd look a lot more like the 450 levels listed above.

I think some guys (Lamson, Brown, maybe Davalos) are better-suited for the smaller bikes. I know there's a program in place to nudge guys up to the big-bore class, but it's also a one-way path with a cliff at the end.

Remember, some of the "veterans" in there (Craig and Osborne) are guys who either took lots of time off due to injury, raced overseas, etc.
I agree that if you make the 250 class a 17 race series many guys would lose rides and have nowhere to go. The factories/energy drinks would just take that money and redistribute it to few at the top that are doing all the winning.

At some point Feld has to get involved and make an investment in the riders for the health of the sport. It's crazy that we have all these series sponsors, no longer have to pay to be on TV but there is no points fund???
The real problem is money and where it either does or doesn't come from. Feld has to give these unsponsored 450 guys a reason to load up the sprinter van and invest in themselves and go to the races, the way it is now a guy like Weimer or Dean can't afford to do that because what little they have been able to save would be gone in a season of going it on their own...but if they could just make some money...

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cslacker 11/30/2016 1:40pm
11/30/2016 1:40pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 1:43pm
Matthes wrote:
C'mon GuyB, this comment means you didn't read the story! My premise is that these 250 teams will move into 450 class once we lessen the...
C'mon GuyB, this comment means you didn't read the story!

My premise is that these 250 teams will move into 450 class once we lessen the importance of the 250 class. There are riders in first or second year, have never podiumed and making 120K a year. Meanwhile riders that have accomplished something make, well, 0K from anyone in 450's.

Something I didn't put in the story was that if you're not buying what I'm selling then eff it, make the 250 one class for all 17 rounds, make the purse equal and no rules either way as to what class you ride. Make it wide open and dudes like A A Mart and Marty just stay down in 250's. Either way is fine with me but right now, the way it is the class is SO far from what it started out to be and that's hurting our sport.

GuyB wrote:
You can tell Mitch he's moving up to the 450 class. I'll stand by and shoot the video. :)
You can tell Mitch he's moving up to the 450 class. I'll stand by and shoot the video. Smile
tprice07 wrote:
What's the opposition?
Well...

PC is factory Kawi's 250 effort, Troy Lee is KTM's, Geico is Honda's etc...

Would PC get the same $ and support from Kawi if they were in direct competition with the Factory Kawi team? Same with Troy Lee, would KTM have brought them on board as an alternative 450 effort which would make it their 3rd 450 factory team? And if they did somehow retain their current level of support from the factories, would the other satellite teams now start to lose funding?

There is a limit to how much money is going to be invested in the premier class by each manufacturer. At a certain point you will get a better ROI by investing additional dollars in the 250 class. It just doesn't make any business sense in my opinion for anyone to do what is being proposed.

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kkawboy14 11/30/2016 1:54pm
11/30/2016 1:54pm
DC wrote:
"i think this is why the changed it to East / West to move Sandbaggers like Lamson and Brown up?" The East-West idea came about back...
"i think this is why the changed it to East / West to move Sandbaggers like Lamson and Brown up?"

The East-West idea came about back in the planning stages of the 125cc Class in 1985 as a way to make following the series affordable to privateers and support riders by splitting it in half, and also giving kids on each side of the country a chance to make some impressions for themselves on the industry while also learning supercross. Lamson and Brown weren't even on minicycles at the time.

And I'm with Guy B, you might not like that guys stay in there for so long, but where would they go in a year like right now, where a half-dozen really good 450 riders don't have a place, nor does last year's 250 East Region Champion?

DC

How in the world does splitting the series help the privateers?
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kkawboy14 11/30/2016 1:57pm
11/30/2016 1:57pm
Lastander wrote:
30 guys in the 450 main, boom solved it
30 riders in both classes
cameron96
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cameron96 11/30/2016 2:06pm
11/30/2016 2:06pm
The Chasing the dream series this year was extremely well done, 80% of it was focusing on 450 and keeps viewers more enlisted in the 17 race series. By posting it all right on YouTube outsiders get more exposure and know a lot more about 450 guys

This year i hope this series continues and that they continue talking about the big name guys and big story lines.

2014 was the first year I watched every single race live at home. I'll note that the behind the dream series helped my motivation. I strongly feel this documentary helps gain new viewers, and keep current ones watching

If they changed this show to 250 guys like the mxnation (great show this summer) I would be rattled, keep it about 450 guys
inthebadboycorner 11/30/2016 2:13pm
11/30/2016 2:13pm
mx_563 wrote:
Move up where though? There's not enough rides to go around. Unproven kids from the amateur ranks are that important that they need to be bumping...
Move up where though? There's not enough rides to go around. Unproven kids from the amateur ranks are that important that they need to be bumping out talented riders trying to make a living to support their families?

Bowers was having a hard enough time finding a ride. Who's he gonna ride for in the 450 class? Dean Wilson's 450 ride situation was in question....so how is Osborne or Davalos gonna get a decent 450 spot?
So do you really believe that if a championship or even a points Talley was not in the 250 class that Pro circuit or Geico teams and others would just fold, maybe they would be in the 450 class?

What happened to the 500cc or MX3 classes we they folded, some of the teams folded but others moved to the premier classes.
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TeamGreen 11/30/2016 2:18pm
11/30/2016 2:18pm
DC wrote:
"i think this is why the changed it to East / West to move Sandbaggers like Lamson and Brown up?" The East-West idea came about back...
"i think this is why the changed it to East / West to move Sandbaggers like Lamson and Brown up?"

The East-West idea came about back in the planning stages of the 125cc Class in 1985 as a way to make following the series affordable to privateers and support riders by splitting it in half, and also giving kids on each side of the country a chance to make some impressions for themselves on the industry while also learning supercross. Lamson and Brown weren't even on minicycles at the time.

And I'm with Guy B, you might not like that guys stay in there for so long, but where would they go in a year like right now, where a half-dozen really good 450 riders don't have a place, nor does last year's 250 East Region Champion?

DC

kkawboy14 wrote:
How in the world does splitting the series help the privateers?
8 races in the East
8 races in the West
1 Final at Vegas
That's an 8 race series on a regional basis.

Versus the 450s that travel the ENTIRE 17 race series thru-out the ENTIRE U.S.A.
mx_563
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mx_563 11/30/2016 2:23pm
11/30/2016 2:23pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 2:25pm
mx_563 wrote:
Move up where though? There's not enough rides to go around. Unproven kids from the amateur ranks are that important that they need to be bumping...
Move up where though? There's not enough rides to go around. Unproven kids from the amateur ranks are that important that they need to be bumping out talented riders trying to make a living to support their families?

Bowers was having a hard enough time finding a ride. Who's he gonna ride for in the 450 class? Dean Wilson's 450 ride situation was in question....so how is Osborne or Davalos gonna get a decent 450 spot?
inthebadboycorner wrote:
So do you really believe that if a championship or even a points Talley was not in the 250 class that Pro circuit or Geico teams...
So do you really believe that if a championship or even a points Talley was not in the 250 class that Pro circuit or Geico teams and others would just fold, maybe they would be in the 450 class?

What happened to the 500cc or MX3 classes we they folded, some of the teams folded but others moved to the premier classes.
There are plenty of reasons why guys like Mitch and Majkrzak are not going to go toe-to-toe with the factories in the 450 class. Those teams exist because they are NOT going toe to toe with factories in the 250 class. They ARE the factories in the 250 class. It's totally different than the 500 and MX3 classes going away.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume they do in fact move to the 450 class and there are no factory teams in the 250 class. How does that help the amateur riders get rides? That was the whole point of bumping up Osborne, Davalos etc (per the original post) to open up spots for the upcoming amateurs!

EDIT: OK, correction, original post was about giving new guys a chance to do well, not to get rides. I concede.
jmurphy243 11/30/2016 2:36pm
11/30/2016 2:36pm
The problem with them moving up is you now have 22 man gates of factory riders with no chance for a little guy to get through to the night show. And then there isn't as much money in the 250 class for them to race that. I personally think the racing is best when there is 9 or 10 or even 15 "names" and the rest are local dudes or guys fighting for rides stuff like that. If all those guys moved up it would still be roczen dungey and tomac at the top. In today's age of training facilities those 250 dude are putting in just as much work as the big bike guys. I know they race half as much (SX only) but they already make less. The blame is on the teams if they are willing to overpay riders in the 250 class. davalos is being payed WAY too much but that's not the sports fault that's huskys fault. They could have 2 good riders for his salary.
aFACEdismembered 11/30/2016 2:53pm
11/30/2016 2:53pm
News flash...

It's not 1985 anymore. The 125 class is dead and amateur nationals (and media, internet, social media) has all but eliminated the need for a local yocal to show up to a regional SX and blow people away. Give it up and move on. That ship has sailed.
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 11/30/2016 2:55pm
11/30/2016 2:55pm
DC wrote:
"i think this is why the changed it to East / West to move Sandbaggers like Lamson and Brown up?" The East-West idea came about back...
"i think this is why the changed it to East / West to move Sandbaggers like Lamson and Brown up?"

The East-West idea came about back in the planning stages of the 125cc Class in 1985 as a way to make following the series affordable to privateers and support riders by splitting it in half, and also giving kids on each side of the country a chance to make some impressions for themselves on the industry while also learning supercross. Lamson and Brown weren't even on minicycles at the time.

And I'm with Guy B, you might not like that guys stay in there for so long, but where would they go in a year like right now, where a half-dozen really good 450 riders don't have a place, nor does last year's 250 East Region Champion?

DC

kkawboy14 wrote:
How in the world does splitting the series help the privateers?
TeamGreen wrote:
8 races in the East 8 races in the West 1 Final at Vegas That's an 8 race series on a regional basis. Versus the 450s...
8 races in the East
8 races in the West
1 Final at Vegas
That's an 8 race series on a regional basis.

Versus the 450s that travel the ENTIRE 17 race series thru-out the ENTIRE U.S.A.
How does that help the privateers?

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jasonv43
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jasonv43 11/30/2016 3:34pm
11/30/2016 3:34pm
"The distributors, gear people, and online people I talk to say sales are back to where they were in the heyday."

100% NOT TRUE
ML512
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ML512 11/30/2016 3:39pm
11/30/2016 3:39pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
How does that help the privateers?
Cheaper travel budget to attempt an entire championship. For small teams such as Traders, Slaton, Barns Pro, Buddy Brooks, Rockwell Fire and Police, Triple Effect this works as they can't afford to do all 17 rounds, as for many riders in TPJ.
feelnjstfine
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feelnjstfine 11/30/2016 3:50pm
11/30/2016 3:50pm
In a perfect scenario, I'd say create a Grand National Championship, 12SX/12MX, make it the most prestigious title a racer can earn. Points total of both series combine. 450 points count for twice as much as 250's, but 250's opened up completely and turned into a national series. With the riders and factories now chasing individual championships AND the GNC title, the 450 would be elevated since it would it be virtually impossible to win the GNC on a 250. Factories are allotted four bikes in each class(2 in-house, 2-sattelite) +kit-bikes to private teams. That's 48+ factory supported rider total. The guys that want the GNC are always gonna move up as quick as they can. 250 specialist can stay there, just probably not going to make as much or win the GNC, but can still win national championships. To me, that would address a lot of the situations on both sides of the aisle. I know, not gonna happen, but damnit, a man can dream!
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Harry_Gray 11/30/2016 4:33pm
11/30/2016 4:33pm
Motoxdoc wrote:
I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I say make the 250 class a full series alongside the 450 class and let ANYONE race either...
I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I say make the 250 class a full series alongside the 450 class and let ANYONE race either class....They're all pros and there's no cherrypickin if there isn't another faster class to move up to.....and while they're at it, bring back the 125 outdoor series as well as 125 SX!

As I'm reading this I see Aceofspades comment, "Why not treat the 250 class as an actual , prestegious class and not a feeder class?"...Yes, this is what I'm talking about.
Agree x1000. Been saying that for ages. Whistling
731chopper
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731chopper 11/30/2016 4:45pm
11/30/2016 4:45pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 4:50pm
jasonv43 wrote:
"The distributors, gear people, and online people I talk to say sales are back to where they were in the heyday."

100% NOT TRUE
I was wondering about this. Aren't bike sales still way off what they were 10-15 years ago?
haydos25
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haydos25 11/30/2016 4:50pm
11/30/2016 4:50pm
Manufacturers sell just as many 250's as they do 450's im sure, perhaps more. Why wouldn't they want to showcase them on the same platform with the best riders they can buy who give them the best chance of winning?

For diehards of the sport we see 450 as the premier class and 250's as a stepping stone, but the cheques for a YZ250F cash just aswell as the ones coming in for a 450. Why wouldn't the bean counters at HQ want people to think they have the best small bore product to sell.

Maybe the answer is a salary cap. 75k per year plus 15k bonus if you win a title maximum. You wanna earn big dollars move to the 450 class. Maybe the manufacturers will have a little more cash left over to throw at extra bikes/riders if they're not spending 200 grand per rider on there factory lites program.

Whether its policeable is another question but its an option
731chopper
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731chopper 11/30/2016 4:51pm
11/30/2016 4:51pm


Joko
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Joko 11/30/2016 4:55pm
11/30/2016 4:55pm
Back in the 70s and 80s there was many excellent riders that showcased their talents in the 125, 250 and 500 class. The sport grew, made many fans appreciative because they were able to see different classes and competitiveness levels in 3 classes. Now that we only have 2 of those 3 classes, we are experiencing extra riders that could race in a third class to spark or re-spark interest. So maybe cut down on all the heat races, semis, consis, etc. and add a third championship class to see more of the talent, and in some cases, guys who would be better on a 250 instead of 5th place on a 450. What could the third class be? IDK .....
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Pembroke36 11/30/2016 4:56pm
11/30/2016 4:56pm
I like the idea of the 250's being 17 races as well. But then there is the "too many races" argument. But I still don't get why a rider signs a guy and he has to ride both mx and sx. Why can't there just be sx riders and mx riders and treat it like the two different sports that it is? That would definitely giver more riders jobs and they can focus on their series all year. I know mx riders will get paid less but not all sports are paid equal anyways.
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Homey55 11/30/2016 4:58pm
11/30/2016 4:58pm
450SX - 17 Rounds, timed mains, no restrictions

250SX - 17 Rounds, timed mains, no restrictions (age, wins etc.)

250 Showcase - Daytime heats/qualifiers, 10 Lap night show either at the beginning of the night show or during intermission. Move up to 250SX after 3 wins.

No more sumo racing, wiener dog racing or KTM Jr. SX. Maybe bring back the NASCAR dudes to do a first turn challenge Wink
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DPR250R 11/30/2016 5:09pm
11/30/2016 5:09pm
Split them both, bring them together at the end.

Racing has been better in the 250 class for a while. Leave it alone. 450 class is what needs attention.
yak651
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yak651 11/30/2016 5:26pm
11/30/2016 5:26pm
Two things
1.) Besides A1, for the most part 250's hold my interest a lot more than the 450's
2.) Are there really not enough top rides when the leaders in 450's lap into the top 10 at many races?

Post a reply to: Matthes on 250 class