bring real factory bikes back...... please

loftyair
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1/21/2016 4:17pm Edited Date/Time 1/21/2016 4:17pm
Oh man, all the 'works' bikes would be what they call '2-stroke'. Look it up, more power, less weight!
rcannon
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1/21/2016 4:17pm
I like the idea, and I know what your saying. Back int he 70's there were new things to discover like long travel suspension. Early 80's meant watercooling. Disc brakes. Its a short list, really.

Honda brought out mass produced aluminum frames. Five years later, we were semi ok with aluminum frames and their being too stiff.

Yamaha flipped the cylinder around, Five years later we are semi- satisfied its a ok bike.

So, now you want an innovation that may or may not work, or that people may or may not like? Or, save money and polish up what you've always had.

Plus, if it follows the path of streetbikes, or maybe the world, there really are no new materials. All you'd get is a bunch of electronic assist items.





Madc32
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1/21/2016 4:19pm
Julian wrote:
gosh, things seem to have changed in my good old USA. most of what I am reading on this thread indicates the current crop of mxers...
gosh, things seem to have changed in my good old USA. most of what I am reading on this thread indicates the current crop of mxers are starting to get a bit socialistic and wanting a "fair playing field" for mx competition today whereas back in the 70/80's everyone was excited about the progress and development of mx.

ho hum....... guess that's the way it is...... guess mx bikes have reached the end of development --- time to just stop and ride what we have..........

Don't tell Elon Musk about that concept.........
Oh now you did it. I don't think the average MXer is down with Socialism.Unsure
Myke
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1/21/2016 4:30pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything...
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything like that) with suspension done, but anything they do to the suspension has to be available to the public. Close the gap between the privateers and the factory teams. Let the actual riding separate the guys, not the bikes/parts. All of the new production bikes are badass. Can you really keep making these bikes that much better?
Yes!


Is this thread a fishing expedition? I can not see how this can not make sense to anyone.

The Shop

Big Lenny
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1/21/2016 4:41pm
newmann wrote:
http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Old-School-Moto,22/78-RC500-engine-cleanup,1290312 few close up pics [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/11/12/111050/s1200_IMG_20151112_192006_491.jpg[/img]
Beautiful...
1/21/2016 4:42pm
What about 93 - 95 (or 96) where McGrath ran essentially the same bike. new isn't always progress. Ask HRC how it worked for their MotoGP...
What about 93 - 95 (or 96) where McGrath ran essentially the same bike. new isn't always progress. Ask HRC how it worked for their MotoGP program this year.
This.
Flatliner
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1/21/2016 5:33pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything...
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything like that) with suspension done, but anything they do to the suspension has to be available to the public. Close the gap between the privateers and the factory teams. Let the actual riding separate the guys, not the bikes/parts. All of the new production bikes are badass. Can you really keep making these bikes that much better?
Disagree. The top guys have earned the equipment.
zehn
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1/21/2016 5:34pm Edited Date/Time 1/21/2016 5:37pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything...
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything like that) with suspension done, but anything they do to the suspension has to be available to the public. Close the gap between the privateers and the factory teams. Let the actual riding separate the guys, not the bikes/parts. All of the new production bikes are badass. Can you really keep making these bikes that much better?
Flatliner wrote:
Disagree. The top guys have earned the equipment.
Really? Who decides who has "earned" what?

And how is anybody supposed to "earn" this top equipment if they're stuck on second-tier equipment?
ML512
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1/21/2016 5:40pm
zehn wrote:
Really? Who decides who has "earned" what?

And how is anybody supposed to "earn" this top equipment if they're stuck on second-tier equipment?
Do what Weston Peick did.
zehn
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1/21/2016 5:42pm Edited Date/Time 1/21/2016 5:43pm
zehn wrote:
Really? Who decides who has "earned" what?

And how is anybody supposed to "earn" this top equipment if they're stuck on second-tier equipment?
ML512 wrote:
Do what Weston Peick did.
Easier said than done, no?

EDIT: Ok, so I misread or misunderstood Flatliner. I do agree that the top guys have earned the equipment they have
ML512
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1/21/2016 5:43pm
zehn wrote:
Easier said than done, no?

EDIT: Ok, so I misread or misunderstood Flatliner. I do agree that the top guys have earned the equipment they have
Who said earning a Factory ride should be easy??

Other examples: Alex Martin, Phil Nicoletti.
zehn
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1/21/2016 5:44pm
zehn wrote:
Easier said than done, no?

EDIT: Ok, so I misread or misunderstood Flatliner. I do agree that the top guys have earned the equipment they have
ML512 wrote:
Who said earning a Factory ride should be easy??

Other examples: Alex Martin, Phil Nicoletti.
Check my edit
ML512
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1/21/2016 5:46pm
zehn wrote:
Check my edit
All good.
kkawboy14
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1/21/2016 5:54pm
Julian wrote:
just noticed the classic steel post..... 2002 Honda, looks just about like a 2016 Honda, if you ask me. 15 years and nothing...... Back when I...
just noticed the classic steel post..... 2002 Honda, looks just about like a 2016 Honda, if you ask me.

15 years and nothing......

Back when I raced in the mid 70's, if you had a 1-year old bike, it looked like you were riding an antique.

The development was hiper back then and things were exciting, it was FUN to just look at photos of the TRUE factory bikes, I remember the MXA photos of the 1975 Fire Engine Red Factory Hondas, now those were factory bikes.

Today, zzzzzzzzzzzzz......... nothing......... year after year......... boring............ zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I say, get rid of the ban on true factory bikes......... let development proceed and bring back the good old days......

Sure the best riders will get to ride the prototype hand made wonders, so what...........
No such thing as a rider riding a stock bike, really the factory rides are works bikes!
Zracer
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1/21/2016 5:55pm
rcannon wrote:
I like the idea, and I know what your saying. Back int he 70's there were new things to discover like long travel suspension. Early 80's...
I like the idea, and I know what your saying. Back int he 70's there were new things to discover like long travel suspension. Early 80's meant watercooling. Disc brakes. Its a short list, really.

Honda brought out mass produced aluminum frames. Five years later, we were semi ok with aluminum frames and their being too stiff.

Yamaha flipped the cylinder around, Five years later we are semi- satisfied its a ok bike.

So, now you want an innovation that may or may not work, or that people may or may not like? Or, save money and polish up what you've always had.

Plus, if it follows the path of streetbikes, or maybe the world, there really are no new materials. All you'd get is a bunch of electronic assist items.





If thats all you can name from the 80s then you werent there. If you rode a 1980 bike in 1990 you were in for a bad ride. Tracks were changing as fast as the bikes. Go ahead and hit a 65 foot triple on a bike from 1980. I wouldnt think twice about lining up with an 06 bike today. You dont know what you are talking about.
Lucifa.
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1/21/2016 6:21pm
Lucifa. wrote:
You want the gaps increase between riders? It would make the racing boring. Have the riders use their skills to win the race. Closer racing is...
You want the gaps increase between riders? It would make the racing boring. Have the riders use their skills to win the race. Closer racing is better racing.
MaxPower wrote:
Maybe everyone should race the same stock bike and make the track as easy as possible. Racing would be really exciting then
Maybe you should use your brain instead of making smartass coments?
kiwifan
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1/21/2016 6:29pm


Silas444
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1/21/2016 7:08pm
Zracer wrote:
If thats all you can name from the 80s then you werent there. If you rode a 1980 bike in 1990 you were in for a...
If thats all you can name from the 80s then you werent there. If you rode a 1980 bike in 1990 you were in for a bad ride. Tracks were changing as fast as the bikes. Go ahead and hit a 65 foot triple on a bike from 1980. I wouldnt think twice about lining up with an 06 bike today. You dont know what you are talking about.
^^^^ This. Progress was crazy-fast back then because no one, be it a manufacturer or a rider, could afford to stand still. Heck, back in the 70's, if you had a brand new '75 Suzuki TM125, you had no choice but to get rid of it in the Spring of '76, as the "RM" had arrived. I know, my best friend had a '75 TM - for a couple months. Now, in 2016, Ken Roczen rides around on a bike everyone knows has a frame not only inferior to the KTM he could have been on - it has a frame inferior to a SEVEN YEAR OLDER RMZ!!!! It's nuts how slow the progress has become. I have a new YZ250F, though, so I suffer NOT ONE BIT from this dilemma. My bike is a true wonder. As for what COULD be - how about this: a front brake lever that actuates BOTH brakes, with the foot brake actuating only the rear; a shift button where the kill switch is; lighter, smaller engines with supercharging to take up the slack; weight limits of 165 pounds for 250's, 350's, and 450's alike, with all of them being legal to ride in the open class; handlebar-mounted suspension settings; ultra-lite mag wheels with mips-style impact absorption "bumpers"; and just 'cause I'm a smart-ass, how 'bout we bring back the "Full-Floater" suspension from 1981. Howerton said his lap times were two seconds faster once he got that suspension - a year later we ALL had it. To this day, many people say it's the best there ever was. That was 35 years ago. Ah, progress.
FGR01
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1/21/2016 8:05pm
Yes, please, let's encourage massive technological advances that can trickle down to production bikes. Because 4-strokes and EFI haven't been able to completely kill the sport by pricing everyone out.... yet.
1/21/2016 8:53pm
Julian wrote:
gosh, things seem to have changed in my good old USA. most of what I am reading on this thread indicates the current crop of mxers...
gosh, things seem to have changed in my good old USA. most of what I am reading on this thread indicates the current crop of mxers are starting to get a bit socialistic and wanting a "fair playing field" for mx competition today whereas back in the 70/80's everyone was excited about the progress and development of mx.

ho hum....... guess that's the way it is...... guess mx bikes have reached the end of development --- time to just stop and ride what we have..........

Don't tell Elon Musk about that concept.........
We could all afford to be creative trailblazers if the government was propping up our business with taxpayer money lol.
Grizz
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1/21/2016 9:06pm
loftyair wrote:
Oh man, all the 'works' bikes would be what they call '2-stroke'. Look it up, more power, less weight!
Make them as easy to ride as four-strokes and I'm down!
1/21/2016 9:17pm
It would be totally rad to see the return of a true works bike but the only way I see works bikes making a comeback is if they restructure the pro classes. Something like 125 2t intro class, 250 or 300 2t/4t pro class and then open works class. The open works class would obviously be a full on trick do what you want class where any development gains could then trickle down to the production bikes. Just think if any one of these manufacturers had the opportunity to fast track an idea and give it a shot and if it worked, great but if it totally sucked they can go back or try something new. Only if hey.
1/21/2016 9:55pm
Factory, bikes, to me are 100% from the factory. Honda is a true factory bike right now because it's basically just them funding it with no title sponsor. I'd be in favour of directing more sponsors to privateers and their teams to increase the competitiveness of racing.
moto455va
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1/21/2016 10:12pm
Two pages of people complainong about the lack of innovation but nobody has any legitimate good ideas for progress or highlighting any issues that need changing.

Progress was so fast in the 80's because they were going from stuff like drum brakes to disk brakes, twin rear shocks to single, conventional forks to upside down forks, etc. These were all solutions to real problems or updates to outdated systems.

What on a modern bike needs a major overhaul? Can the suspension get that much better? Can the motors get that much more powerful? What needs to be changed that would require a full works bike?
c_dub
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1/21/2016 10:28pm
Julian wrote:
gosh, things seem to have changed in my good old USA. most of what I am reading on this thread indicates the current crop of mxers...
gosh, things seem to have changed in my good old USA. most of what I am reading on this thread indicates the current crop of mxers are starting to get a bit socialistic and wanting a "fair playing field" for mx competition today whereas back in the 70/80's everyone was excited about the progress and development of mx.

ho hum....... guess that's the way it is...... guess mx bikes have reached the end of development --- time to just stop and ride what we have..........

Don't tell Elon Musk about that concept.........
We could all afford to be creative trailblazers if the government was propping up our business with taxpayer money lol.
Right. That wasn't a bad post....until he mentioned Elon Musk. Fuck him. He is the definition of a crony capitalist. Tesla would (and should) die a quick death if not for taxpayer subsidies. Therein lies the rub. If they are so great, why the need for generous and countless subsidies? They would never survive in a free market (and no, what we have is nothing close to resembling a free market). Sorry for the hijack. Rant off.

I wouldn't mind seeing full-on Works bikes again. Let the engineers, inventors, & innovators run wild!
c_dub
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1/21/2016 10:52pm
moto455va wrote:
Two pages of people complainong about the lack of innovation but nobody has any legitimate good ideas for progress or highlighting any issues that need changing...
Two pages of people complainong about the lack of innovation but nobody has any legitimate good ideas for progress or highlighting any issues that need changing.

Progress was so fast in the 80's because they were going from stuff like drum brakes to disk brakes, twin rear shocks to single, conventional forks to upside down forks, etc. These were all solutions to real problems or updates to outdated systems.

What on a modern bike needs a major overhaul? Can the suspension get that much better? Can the motors get that much more powerful? What needs to be changed that would require a full works bike?
Nothing needs a major overhaul necessarily. But who knows what humans would come up with to improve the bikes. Just because none of us schmucks here don't know or have any ideas on improving the machines doesn't mean they don't exist. All that matters is that an environment be fostered that allows for innovation to flourish unabated.

Racers are obviously the stars of the show. But racing could have a whole other side in addition to them, showcasing a different side of human potential.
Julian
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1/22/2016 12:06am Edited Date/Time 1/22/2016 2:05am
Thank you all for your thoughts, it is great to see all the posts ! Maybe you just had to have been there racing back in the 70's to really know what I mean. I am not saying There must be improvements made on today's bikes, I am just saying it was a lot of fun to just look at close up photos of those old works bikes that were evolving at warp speed. When the new MX season would come around and MXA started posting photos of the bikes in the pits, it was like candy for a child, Now I look at a ""works bike"" in the pits and it is more or less a blur to me, sort of looks the same way it has for a decade or two.

And I believe the only way to bring back those days is to lift the works bike ban and create an all-out motivation that the factories had back in the early days. It was a little like Formula One, every manufacturer was just buzzing with excitement and new ideas.

It is not about sitting and thinking..... well, what do we need on our current bikes.....

We don't need any more than what we have....

Back in the mid 60's Suzuki went to Sweden (a hotbead of MX talent and technology back then) and hired a Swedish World Champ away from Husky to basically design and build a competitive MX bike for them and he and his mechanic did just that then the bike was handed to Roberts, Geboers and DeCoster to fine tune in a series that DID NOT BAN works bikes.

The European manufacturers were sweating with their "old fashioned overweight machines" but were able to convince the FIM to change the rules to remove some of the advantage that Suzuki had won from their Swedish design team

So then DeCoster had to race a works Suzuki with lead poured inside the frame to reach the new min weight limit.

But the result of all of this was the TM

Other manufacturers were doing the same thing and were also copying each other, Honda was busy copying Yamaha and Suzuki and Yamaha was giving Don Jones resources to modify the DT Yamaha into what would eventually be the YZ (Yamaha was also paying a Swedish rider to do the same thing in Europe) Then Don Jones shipped his creation which was basically 95% his own creation back to Yamaha in Japan and there it was on the showroom floor in America a few months later, with a brand new name on the sides,,,, the YZ had been born.

Honda got Don Jones to help with their wonderful new creation the CR

and all of the sudden the Teens all across America could walk into their local Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki dealerships and walk out with a modern MX wonder........ Gone were the old primitive days of slow, overweight, unreliable --- and expensive --- MX bikes and everybody said welcome FMF, DG, etc etc, Broc Glover was out on his 76 DG-CR (not a factory works bike) showing what American know-how could achieve....... and the world of American MX exploded into the great sport it has become.

But did we really need those works bikes that DeCoster was racing and developing in 1970?

nahhhh... Suzuki should just have left him on that East Bloc CZ !!!
Julian
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1/22/2016 2:27am
NVA57 wrote:
http://www.vitalmx.com/photos/features/Pit-Bits-2015-Glen-Helen-USGP,38…

Damn, wish all that stuff came with my stock bike Whistling
that is more like examples of what i miss,,,

but to me, it seems all a compromise.

Those are examples of what the Japanese can come up with by not having a factory bike ban in Japan and Europe.

The American MX world is however very important and the AMA factory bike ban puts a big damp blanket over everyone. If the Japanese are banned from the USA, they loose a lot of enthusiasm for creating new ideas for just Japan and Europe.

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