Is RCH good enough...

Big Tex27
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7/7/2014 9:01pm
I wonder if jgr made any kind of run at Kroc you know they have the money..
7/7/2014 9:08pm
The RMZ is a great platform. More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride. There is a reason Suzuki...
The RMZ is a great platform. More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride. There is a reason Suzuki has not changed the bike much in recent years. KR has ridden the bike plenty, and he would not be making the change if he did not feel confident. My guess is his decision was driven more by SX than MX. That is where the money and exposure is.
"More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride."

No it's not. More riders choose Honda than any other brand. At Red Bud of the 80 bikes that qualified in both classes, 30 were Honda and earlier in Supercross one round had 25 Hondas out of the 44 bikes.

Suzuki had 4 bikes, out of 80 at Red Bud.
hillbilly
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7/7/2014 9:31pm
Will they mount a diehard and a small block chevy starter on theyellow bike?
7/7/2014 10:42pm
Brent wrote:
...for a rider like Ken Roczen? I know the factory Suzuki 450 has a good rep today, but what happens when the the other brands move...
...for a rider like Ken Roczen?

I know the factory Suzuki 450 has a good rep today, but what happens when the the other brands move ahead technically next season, will it be good enough then?

And no offense to RC or Kenny Watson, but I doubt they are going to be over at the Suzuki race shop at 8 AM on a monday after the race grinding parts on a Lathe like Decoster and Ian Harrison do for KTM to make the bike better.

My point is that DeCoster is a huge reason KTM has become the bike it is now, and I just don't see that kind of dedication to improving the motorcycle coming from RCH or cash- strapped Suzuki Corporate next near.

Right now I think KTM has the drive to be world number one, and will do whatever it takes to get there.

I just don't see that right now from Suzuki or RCH.
U bring up a valid issue. I myself can't figure out why KTM let Ken go or why he left. I understand that he probably got more money and after all, that's enough of a reason to jump ship.

But I wouldn't say RCH is a outfit capable of winning a title. The bikes are nice and the equipment is good. But I have my doubts as to potential of the team. Ken left a very professional situation for what largely amounts to a toy for RC & Hart.

I hope Ken can stay focused and not get too distracted while with that program. If so, a championship is doable. But it will be a damn tough task.

When was the last time, if ever, a private or satellite team won a 450 championship?

JGR hasn't been able to do it. And they are as professional as it gets.

FC? A satellite team and they still havent done it.

Two two? Came close.

Rockstar? Almost with Davi.

MCR? Might not even do it in Canada by the looks of things.

Private & satellite teams are better than ever these days. But still haven't gotten over the hump.

The Shop

7/7/2014 10:43pm Edited Date/Time 7/7/2014 10:53pm
The RMZ is a great platform. More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride. There is a reason Suzuki...
The RMZ is a great platform. More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride. There is a reason Suzuki has not changed the bike much in recent years. KR has ridden the bike plenty, and he would not be making the change if he did not feel confident. My guess is his decision was driven more by SX than MX. That is where the money and exposure is.
"More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride." No it's not. More riders choose Honda than any other brand...
"More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride."

No it's not. More riders choose Honda than any other brand. At Red Bud of the 80 bikes that qualified in both classes, 30 were Honda and earlier in Supercross one round had 25 Hondas out of the 44 bikes.

Suzuki had 4 bikes, out of 80 at Red Bud.
Hondas have cheap parts and good contingency. Suzuki's don't. That matters to private teams and privateers.

But if given the choice, with budget not being an issue, I think the Suzuki is pretty well favored by most riders. I wouldn't bet against it.
7/7/2014 10:52pm
I remember thinking the same thing when Ricky made the switch to Suzuki...WTF? He's going to ride those POS's??? Didn't he break a clutch or something...
I remember thinking the same thing when Ricky made the switch to Suzuki...WTF? He's going to ride those POS's??? Didn't he break a clutch or something in his very first formal ride on them? History says they got things figured out okay... Whistling

It might be easy to confuse the bikes on the showroom floors with the ones out on the National tracks.
From a recent Chaparral ad:
2014 450's
Honda $7,878
Yamaha $6,490
Kawasaki $5,999
Suzuki.... $4,799
Looks like they are having a tough time giving them away! (Even at that price I would not tough one with a ten foot pole! Seems I am not alone)
Maybe the production bikes are not "good enough," but the factory bikes and teams have proven to be in the past. Will be interesting to watch it play out...
Mickolobe7 wrote:
2014 RMZ 450 4799! Wow I want one!
Wow. Only $4800?????

I may just have to get one on principle.

The Zooks are great bikes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fishing. It's been steadily refined each year since the beginning. Has the best aluminum chassis. And in race trim, might be the lightest of any brand.

As far as equipment is concerned, the switch to Suzuki is a lateral move at worst.
68
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7/8/2014 2:03am
I just went onto the Chaparrel site, they are advertised for $8700
lilbulld
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7/8/2014 3:07am Edited Date/Time 7/8/2014 3:08am
L
lilbulld
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7/8/2014 3:07am
Brent wrote:
...for a rider like Ken Roczen? I know the factory Suzuki 450 has a good rep today, but what happens when the the other brands move...
...for a rider like Ken Roczen?

I know the factory Suzuki 450 has a good rep today, but what happens when the the other brands move ahead technically next season, will it be good enough then?

And no offense to RC or Kenny Watson, but I doubt they are going to be over at the Suzuki race shop at 8 AM on a monday after the race grinding parts on a Lathe like Decoster and Ian Harrison do for KTM to make the bike better.

My point is that DeCoster is a huge reason KTM has become the bike it is now, and I just don't see that kind of dedication to improving the motorcycle coming from RCH or cash- strapped Suzuki Corporate next near.

Right now I think KTM has the drive to be world number one, and will do whatever it takes to get there.

I just don't see that right now from Suzuki or RCH.
U bring up a valid issue. I myself can't figure out why KTM let Ken go or why he left. I understand that he probably got...
U bring up a valid issue. I myself can't figure out why KTM let Ken go or why he left. I understand that he probably got more money and after all, that's enough of a reason to jump ship.

But I wouldn't say RCH is a outfit capable of winning a title. The bikes are nice and the equipment is good. But I have my doubts as to potential of the team. Ken left a very professional situation for what largely amounts to a toy for RC & Hart.

I hope Ken can stay focused and not get too distracted while with that program. If so, a championship is doable. But it will be a damn tough task.

When was the last time, if ever, a private or satellite team won a 450 championship?

JGR hasn't been able to do it. And they are as professional as it gets.

FC? A satellite team and they still havent done it.

Two two? Came close.

Rockstar? Almost with Davi.

MCR? Might not even do it in Canada by the looks of things.

Private & satellite teams are better than ever these days. But still haven't gotten over the hump.
L&M, Chaparral
7/8/2014 3:34am
hartebreak wrote:
I think both the team and Kenny have a lot on the line next year. The team has never had the resources or rider to realistically...
I think both the team and Kenny have a lot on the line next year. The team has never had the resources or rider to realistically compete for a title and next year will the the first year when Kenny is "expected" to win. Both parties have a ton invested in the deal and the pressure on both sides will be off the charts. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
"expected to win"!?
every worldchamp who's moving to merica is expected to win.
mehow2g
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7/8/2014 4:23am
I'm pretty sure Ken will succeed no matter what color he rides.
Hanaa80
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7/8/2014 5:17am
I still think it's a bad move for Kenny. I really hope they prove me wrong.
MN338
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7/8/2014 7:53am
"Is RCH Good Enough..." Do you want to know the answer? Here it is, it doesn't fucking matter! Ken Roczen is good enough, and that's what matters.
7/8/2014 9:42am
The RMZ is a great platform. More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride. There is a reason Suzuki...
The RMZ is a great platform. More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride. There is a reason Suzuki has not changed the bike much in recent years. KR has ridden the bike plenty, and he would not be making the change if he did not feel confident. My guess is his decision was driven more by SX than MX. That is where the money and exposure is.
"More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride." No it's not. More riders choose Honda than any other brand...
"More than any other bike...it is the one that pro level riders want to ride."

No it's not. More riders choose Honda than any other brand. At Red Bud of the 80 bikes that qualified in both classes, 30 were Honda and earlier in Supercross one round had 25 Hondas out of the 44 bikes.

Suzuki had 4 bikes, out of 80 at Red Bud.
Hondas have cheap parts and good contingency. Suzuki's don't. That matters to private teams and privateers. But if given the choice, with budget not being an...
Hondas have cheap parts and good contingency. Suzuki's don't. That matters to private teams and privateers.

But if given the choice, with budget not being an issue, I think the Suzuki is pretty well favored by most riders. I wouldn't bet against it.
Honda has cheap parts and Suzuki doesnt? Last time I checked its pretty much the same prices

As for the contingency programs, Suzuki has always offered the best programs around, not Honda~


Getndome
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7/8/2014 10:38am
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say if villopoto don't come back next year. roczen (barring any injuries) wins one if not both titles next year.

Brent
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7/8/2014 11:39am
hillbilly wrote:
Will they mount a diehard and a small block chevy starter on theyellow bike?
I was thinking GSXR motor and starter but you got the right ideaTongue
7/8/2014 11:56am Edited Date/Time 7/8/2014 11:57am
U bring up a valid issue. I myself can't figure out why KTM let Ken go or why he left. I understand that he probably got...
U bring up a valid issue. I myself can't figure out why KTM let Ken go or why he left. I understand that he probably got more money and after all, that's enough of a reason to jump ship.

But I wouldn't say RCH is a outfit capable of winning a title. The bikes are nice and the equipment is good. But I have my doubts as to potential of the team. Ken left a very professional situation for what largely amounts to a toy for RC & Hart.

I hope Ken can stay focused and not get too distracted while with that program. If so, a championship is doable. But it will be a damn tough task.

When was the last time, if ever, a private or satellite team won a 450 championship?

JGR hasn't been able to do it. And they are as professional as it gets.

FC? A satellite team and they still havent done it.

Two two? Came close.

Rockstar? Almost with Davi.

MCR? Might not even do it in Canada by the looks of things.

Private & satellite teams are better than ever these days. But still haven't gotten over the hump.
RCH is one "toilet seat left up" or "you're spending too much time with your motorcycle thingy" argument away from Hart losing his financial backing for the team.
ando
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7/8/2014 12:01pm
Brent wrote:
...for a rider like Ken Roczen? I know the factory Suzuki 450 has a good rep today, but what happens when the the other brands move...
...for a rider like Ken Roczen?

I know the factory Suzuki 450 has a good rep today, but what happens when the the other brands move ahead technically next season, will it be good enough then?

And no offense to RC or Kenny Watson, but I doubt they are going to be over at the Suzuki race shop at 8 AM on a monday after the race grinding parts on a Lathe like Decoster and Ian Harrison do for KTM to make the bike better.

My point is that DeCoster is a huge reason KTM has become the bike it is now, and I just don't see that kind of dedication to improving the motorcycle coming from RCH or cash- strapped Suzuki Corporate next near.

Right now I think KTM has the drive to be world number one, and will do whatever it takes to get there.

I just don't see that right now from Suzuki or RCH.
U bring up a valid issue. I myself can't figure out why KTM let Ken go or why he left. I understand that he probably got...
U bring up a valid issue. I myself can't figure out why KTM let Ken go or why he left. I understand that he probably got more money and after all, that's enough of a reason to jump ship.

But I wouldn't say RCH is a outfit capable of winning a title. The bikes are nice and the equipment is good. But I have my doubts as to potential of the team. Ken left a very professional situation for what largely amounts to a toy for RC & Hart.

I hope Ken can stay focused and not get too distracted while with that program. If so, a championship is doable. But it will be a damn tough task.

When was the last time, if ever, a private or satellite team won a 450 championship?

JGR hasn't been able to do it. And they are as professional as it gets.

FC? A satellite team and they still havent done it.

Two two? Came close.

Rockstar? Almost with Davi.

MCR? Might not even do it in Canada by the looks of things.

Private & satellite teams are better than ever these days. But still haven't gotten over the hump.
I suppose history will only show who won, so you're correct in that regard. However I'd say that in 2011 Two Two was on an even footing with any of the factory teams. Chad lost the SX title by 4 pts, and was handily taking care of all comers in the nationals until Milville.

On the flip side of that argument, when was the last time Factory Honda even came close to winning a 450 title in the post-RC era?
Brent
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7/8/2014 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2014 12:07pm
lilbulld wrote:
L&M, Chaparral
The common denominator there is Larry Brooks. So then all RCH has to do is bring LB on staff? Larry is a consummate dick but he is passionate and professional about what he does.
Falcon
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7/8/2014 3:54pm
For those of you who doubt RCH's backing, remember that it is a factory bike, hauled by a factory rig, both of which are parked outside the same race shop as James Stewart's whole deal. No one is doubting whether the Factory Rm-Z is good enough for James.

Arguing about whether RCH can support a championship effort is the same as doing the same thing about Yoshimura Suzuki. You can form your own opinion about that, but I say Kenny is in great hands.
Mouse153
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7/8/2014 4:03pm
Falcon wrote:
For those of you who doubt RCH's backing, remember that it is a factory bike, hauled by a factory rig, both of which are parked outside...
For those of you who doubt RCH's backing, remember that it is a factory bike, hauled by a factory rig, both of which are parked outside the same race shop as James Stewart's whole deal. No one is doubting whether the Factory Rm-Z is good enough for James.

Arguing about whether RCH can support a championship effort is the same as doing the same thing about Yoshimura Suzuki. You can form your own opinion about that, but I say Kenny is in great hands.
I agree with you on the bikes, equipment and technical support from the factory. Where I have doubts about RCH are with Hart & Watson and their financial backing. Those are the unknowns for me but I hope they prove me wrong and Kenny has all the proper support he needs.
7/8/2014 4:28pm
I've been waiting for a top tier rider to get on this team. I think Kenny will do great. I don't see it as a bad move, he's ridden the bikes before and I doubt that he was being pressured by KTM and went with RCH because he had to. I think they are fully capable of winning titles. The equipment, support is there and now the rider as well.
joeellis
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7/8/2014 4:29pm
Kenny certainly has the talent to win on any brand IMO. He will probably win the outdoor title this year without a mechanical or injury. Any brand can certainly fail at any given moment. I really feel that Kenny is one of the next true superstars. His talent appears to be undeniable and if he can remain motivated, he could win multiple championships. I am one that would love to see him stay on orange, but he will be successful on any color IMO.
malachi177
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7/8/2014 6:17pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2014 6:21pm
Honda has cheap parts and Suzuki doesnt? Last time I checked its pretty much the same prices As for the contingency programs, Suzuki has always offered...
Honda has cheap parts and Suzuki doesnt? Last time I checked its pretty much the same prices

As for the contingency programs, Suzuki has always offered the best programs around, not Honda~


Honda parts are significantly cheaper!! Suzuki's contingency is a lot lower now then it used to be. That is why you see so many red bikes lining up at SX and MX events. Privateers want cheap parts and a good contingency.
Brent
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7/8/2014 7:23pm Edited Date/Time 7/10/2014 12:21am
This thread has run its course, but let me throw out one more thing.

Two years ago, you had Larry Brooks and Jeremy McGrath team up on leased factory machinery, kind of the same deal as exists at RCH. Everybody back then said it was a sure fire combo, and everybody was sure that Shorty was going to be top five with all that experience and backing.

Now I think Kenny is far more capable than Andrew, in fact he may be the best rider in the world as I write this, but the formula is still the same as the LB-MC team.

Then, as now, a large casino was involved, and then out of the blue the Indians closed the checkbook for whatever reason.

So, if history repeats itself and the bills fall in the team owners lap to pay, how long will full staffing and unlimited spending occur to produce a winner?

Someone said it earlier, KTM is a business, and that business is to sell motorcycles. RCH is a hobby for a couple of wealthy guys who still want to stay in the game instead of staying home doing nothing.

If Carmichael had gone all the way in Nascar would he be doing this now?

7/8/2014 7:55pm
Honda has cheap parts and Suzuki doesnt? Last time I checked its pretty much the same prices As for the contingency programs, Suzuki has always offered...
Honda has cheap parts and Suzuki doesnt? Last time I checked its pretty much the same prices

As for the contingency programs, Suzuki has always offered the best programs around, not Honda~


malachi177 wrote:
Honda parts are significantly cheaper!! Suzuki's contingency is a lot lower now then it used to be. That is why you see so many red bikes...
Honda parts are significantly cheaper!! Suzuki's contingency is a lot lower now then it used to be. That is why you see so many red bikes lining up at SX and MX events. Privateers want cheap parts and a good contingency.
Far from it...first off we are talking contingency not overalls with factory backing. Suzuki has stepped up every year on their contingency program, it has never been cut!!! Suzuki has cut factory supported teams and their factory/amatuer programs but not their contingency!!...go look at the amateur game and see whos making money? And see what color they are riding? Alot of the guys racing on the pro level week in week have been riding the red bike since coming up and will bleed red if they have the money coming out of their own pockets! I know many racers that are stubborn in their own ways!!

As for parts ill post a break down of regularly used oem replacement parts between the two bikes when im back at my computer, they are not far apart in pricing so whoever is telling you that is full of B.S



stantdm
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7/8/2014 7:59pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2014 8:11pm
Brent wrote:
This thread has run its course, but let me throw out one more thing. Two years ago, you had Larry Brooks and Jeremy McGrath team up...
This thread has run its course, but let me throw out one more thing.

Two years ago, you had Larry Brooks and Jeremy McGrath team up on leased factory machinery, kind of the same deal as exists at RCH. Everybody back then said it was a sure fire combo, and everybody was sure that Shorty was going to be top five with all that experience and backing.

Now I think Kenny is far more capable than Andrew, in fact he may be the best rider in the world as I write this, but the formula is still the same as the LB-MC team.

Then, as now, a large casino was involved, and then out of the blue the Indians closed the checkbook for whatever reason.

So, if history repeats itself and the bills fall in the team owners lap to pay, how long will full staffing and unlimited spending occur to produce a winner?

Someone said it earlier, KTM is a business, and that business is to sell motorcycles. RCH is a hobby for a couple of wealthy guys who still want to stay in the game instead of staying home doing nothing.

If Carmichael had gone all the way in Nascar would he be doing this now?

My thoughts as well. Sponsors come and go in this business. San Manuel had a new tribal leader step in I think he said " why are we sponsoring this sport and what good is it doing us?" End of sponsorship.

When McGrath and Brooks could not find a sponsor to float their boat it sank. RCH may do just fine but it is risky to assume they are going to be around for a long time.

Hope Kenny's contract has personal guarantees from the owners of RCH.
7/8/2014 8:11pm
Brent wrote:
This thread has run its course, but let me throw out one more thing. Two years ago, you had Larry Brooks and Jeremy McGrath team up...
This thread has run its course, but let me throw out one more thing.

Two years ago, you had Larry Brooks and Jeremy McGrath team up on leased factory machinery, kind of the same deal as exists at RCH. Everybody back then said it was a sure fire combo, and everybody was sure that Shorty was going to be top five with all that experience and backing.

Now I think Kenny is far more capable than Andrew, in fact he may be the best rider in the world as I write this, but the formula is still the same as the LB-MC team.

Then, as now, a large casino was involved, and then out of the blue the Indians closed the checkbook for whatever reason.

So, if history repeats itself and the bills fall in the team owners lap to pay, how long will full staffing and unlimited spending occur to produce a winner?

Someone said it earlier, KTM is a business, and that business is to sell motorcycles. RCH is a hobby for a couple of wealthy guys who still want to stay in the game instead of staying home doing nothing.

If Carmichael had gone all the way in Nascar would he be doing this now?

L&Mc racing leased a single bike and purchased all other practice bikes! They could not find a big sponsor to support what they already had vested! Not enough talent was under the tent to bring the big money sponsor dollars to support that team. Jeremy used every resource imaginable to bring in the right rider before settling on AS29 and when I say settling its not to be exaggerated negatively.

You are comparing apples and oranges between the two teams however, look at the support that Rch racing has, look undernieth the tents, they have as much or more men then most factory teams underneith their tents that know a thing or two about this industry. There is a huge reason for that! You think Chad Reed would have taken months of thought over cutting his own twotwo racing squad last year to move over to Rch if they had nothing to offer?

Rch is not in hot water, they have plenty of backing and have the talent under the tent to put a #1 caliber rider on their bike.

Consistency is key to any teams success and thats what Rch has shown over the past couple years. They have developed that program to house any top level rider in our sport and will show some muscle next year.
mx836
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7/8/2014 8:17pm
Mouse153 wrote:
I agree with you on the bikes, equipment and technical support from the factory. Where I have doubts about RCH are with Hart & Watson and...
I agree with you on the bikes, equipment and technical support from the factory. Where I have doubts about RCH are with Hart & Watson and their financial backing. Those are the unknowns for me but I hope they prove me wrong and Kenny has all the proper support he needs.
I'd guess that RCH brings in almost as much sponsorship $$$ as any other team if not more than all of them. B to B, bro.
7/8/2014 8:23pm
L&Mc racing leased a single bike and purchased all other practice bikes! They could not find a big sponsor to support what they already had vested...
L&Mc racing leased a single bike and purchased all other practice bikes! They could not find a big sponsor to support what they already had vested! Not enough talent was under the tent to bring the big money sponsor dollars to support that team. Jeremy used every resource imaginable to bring in the right rider before settling on AS29 and when I say settling its not to be exaggerated negatively.

You are comparing apples and oranges between the two teams however, look at the support that Rch racing has, look undernieth the tents, they have as much or more men then most factory teams underneith their tents that know a thing or two about this industry. There is a huge reason for that! You think Chad Reed would have taken months of thought over cutting his own twotwo racing squad last year to move over to Rch if they had nothing to offer?

Rch is not in hot water, they have plenty of backing and have the talent under the tent to put a #1 caliber rider on their bike.

Consistency is key to any teams success and thats what Rch has shown over the past couple years. They have developed that program to house any top level rider in our sport and will show some muscle next year.
They may have the infrastructure now and that hopefully will continue to but JGR is the only satellite team (not industry based) to make a go things for any significant amount of time. There just isn't much ROI for non industry sponsors to float a teams boat (at least up until this point).

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